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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 190

post #5671 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

Sounds like you need an advanced degree to operate that thing. wink.gif

Perhaps, if you want to wring everything out of it, but not necessarily.

One fellow borrowed a unit to try out, used all the defaults, did a one-position mic measurement, and got the best sound he'd ever heard from his system http://www.avforums.com/forums/17182663-post13.html .
post #5672 of 9844
Noah, something like the Trinnov standalone is a little different. Maybe you would see some benefit to going full active. Generally speaking though I would say it wouldn't be worth it. In fact, you would probably be better off upgrading each DNA360 to a TAD2001 or adding a mid-horn for a 3-way. Remember, these controlled directivity speakers need less room correction as they aren't as affected by the room as most speakers. The benefits of room correction are far greater with a typical wide dispersion speaker than with a SEOS speaker. The speaker's design does the heavy lifting and does things no DSP can do or cover up.
post #5673 of 9844
If I was just interested in RC, I'd have gotten the Datasat AP20 Dirac unit in the classifieds.

The Trinnov has a couple of unique attributes though: the ability to remap to more speakers than there are input channels, and the ability to create a 3D soundfield better, according to Dan Francis and what I've gathered from reviews and user experiences.

With my first R-972 (on my 2nd after Denon 4810/4311) I once got an incredible startling soundfield, but that try had weak bass.

I've never had the patience to keep trying setups to get everything good at once, but having target curve control should make it way easier.
post #5674 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

The real deal? Sweet.
Sounds like I need to put something on my "saved searches" list on eBay now. Never occurred to me that people would list full-bore Trinnov there.

NM.
Reply
Reply
post #5675 of 9844
Erich,

Is there a mounting adapter to mount the waveguide above the cab?

Thanks
post #5676 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

NM.

?
post #5677 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Erich,
Is there a mounting adapter to mount the waveguide above the cab?
Thanks

I'm interested in this look as well...I'm still months away from buying/building my speakers but I'd like to see more designs with a floating waveguide. I also have the option of using my buddy's 3D printer to "print" a mount.
post #5678 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Remember, these controlled directivity speakers need less room correction as they aren't as affected by the room as most speakers. The benefits of room correction are far greater with a typical wide dispersion speaker than with a SEOS speaker. The speaker's design does the heavy lifting and does things no DSP can do or cover up.

Perhaps, but let's not forget that the SEOS is still only 6 dB down at 45 deg, still reflecting plenty of sound off of the glass wall near my right speaker.

Trinnov claims to deal with modes, power response, and reflections separately http://www.trinnov.com/technologies/loudspeaker-room-optimization/acoustic-correction/ though I think Dirac might also.
post #5679 of 9844
Would be pretty easy to make a mount I would think. I was gonna do this and never did. But realistically, pretty easy to fab something like that.
post #5680 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Perhaps, but let's not forget that the SEOS is still only 6 dB down at 45 deg, still reflecting plenty of sound off of the glass wall near my right speaker.
Trinnov claims to deal with modes, power response, and reflections separately http://www.trinnov.com/technologies/loudspeaker-room-optimization/acoustic-correction/ though I think Dirac might also.

Noah, the Trinnov and Dirac stuff is on a separate plane from typical DSP crossovers. These are the most advanced room correction tools around and well implemented will improve any system. Are they worth the money? That is up to the individual. Maybe not over better drivers, but I would say they are better value than a bunch of uber-amps. If the RS20i were a little cheaper I would consider it. I don't know as much about the Trinnov stuff.

These room correction systems aren't magic though. They won't do a better job of controlling reflections than a horn device. There is no substitute for physically controlling directivity. The ceiling of what these room correction DSPs can do is defined by the speakers and room. Of course, they are also most effective when speakers and room are the least optimal.

When I say DSP is of little benefit to the majority of DIYers relative to a pre-designed passive I'm referring to devices like MiniDSPs and DCXs that are chosen because they will be shortcuts. They are good tools, but unless you know how to swing the hammer, so to speak, you will be disappointed.
post #5681 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

These room correction systems aren't magic though. They won't do a better job of controlling reflections than a horn device. There is no substitute for physically controlling directivity.

I know, and beyond what that can accomplish there's no substitute for DSP.
post #5682 of 9844
We have to make a decision for one the of the last models.

Here's what's done (or nearly done) right now along with flat packs.

Three 8" models that can be used for surrounds or mains using an EOS-8 waveguide like the 18-Sound XT-120.

Eminence 8" and the DNA-205 compression driver
B&C 8" and the DNA-205
Dayton Designer Series. This is still being ironed out. Possibly more of a narrow floor stander with a center channel/satellite option.
Possibly an 8" using the SEOS-12 as an in-wall design, or a very small enclosure.


Three 10" models using the SEOS-12:

Beta-10 with the DNA-205 compression driver (very well priced)
Delta 10A with the DNA-205 compression driver. Same designer also made one with the DNA-350.
Dayton Designer Series in more of a tower type full range speaker.
Eventually someone may design something using a different woofer and one of he Eminence models will go away. I'm not sure just yet.

One 10" model that I'm doing for Zilch in limited numbers. It was one of this most liked and bets tested designs (before the SEOS project) using the Deltalite, the DE250, and the 18-Sound XT1086 waveguide. Any extra money from this will go to the Lung Cancer Association. I will be posting what type of receipt they give that shows that the donation was done. That way we don't have any one worrying like the AV123 scam that was going on a few years ago



Five or seven 12" models using the SEOS-12. Again, many are Eminence, but in the future it might make sense to narrow things down to popular choices.

12" Delta 12A with the DNA-350 (very well priced)
12" Definimax with the DNA-360
12" Delta Pro 12A with the DNA-360. Designed with a little more 'kick you in the chest' sound
12" Deltalite with the DNA-360
12" Dayton Designer Series in more of a tower type full range speaker
12" A&E model. I will get flat packs and crossover parts if needed
There was a design done using a 12" FaitalPro and the DNA-360. Not sure if I will make a kit just yet.

Two 15" models using the SEOS-12.

15" B&C with the DNA-360
Another well priced 15" model using the DNA-350



Other designs being worked out (flat packs, ect):

Two models using dual 6" woofers.
One model using four 4" woofers.


That's a total of 18-20 speaker designs right now. eek.gifeek.gif I might be missing one or two.



Here's where I need some input.

I want to do at least one JBL woofer design but there's debate over which woofer size to use. As you can see we have quite a few 12" models already done. And I'm sure there will be more coming with different woofer brands as time goes on. But it could be a little while. However, there's only two 15" designs right now.

To me, it seems to make sense to design around the JBL 15" woofer versus yet another 12" woofer design. Of course that would be quite an expensive speaker. This will likely be designed around the SEOS-15 and the SEOS-12 to give different options.

If this is the way we decide, I need to borrow a JBL 15" 2226 because Parts Express has been sold out of them for quite some time. And we've been waiting for them to come back in stock to get the design going, if we use the 15".

Whichever size is NOT used, don't worry, I'm sure it will eventually be used in a design. But I'm talking about the design we do right now.

So which do we do right now? 12" or 15" JBL.
Edited by Erich H - 11/24/12 at 5:42pm
post #5683 of 9844
Thread Starter 
jbl no longer represents anything close to a good value.

there are better offerings from 18sounds, bms, and many others.
post #5684 of 9844
I would agree. JBL has made it clear that they are not interested in supporting the DIY community, so not sure why we would support them in any way. As stated above there are a lot of better options out there, which I will defer to the real experts here to point out exact makes and models. I hope that AE remains caught up when all of the GB stuff gets out and would like to see the TD15M's under a SEOS 15.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

jbl no longer represents anything close to a good value.
there are better offerings from 18sounds, bms, and many others.
post #5685 of 9844
I want the TD15Ms when they come back from the abyss. The 18sound 15LW700 is also similar T/S to the 2226/TD15M. Not sure how it rates upper midrange, but they make good woofs..
post #5686 of 9844
Folks,

I have a few questions about the upcoming kits, and I hope that someone can shed some light on this. I've been following the thread for some time.

First, I already have a pair of DE250s, and I wanted to know if I can use these in place of the DNA-350 or DNA-360 without crossover changes. From what I understand from earlier parts of the thread, this seems ok, but if I will be better off with the DNA-360s, I'll be glad to go that route. I got the DE250s for a good price, so I won't take a beating. I already have the SEOS-12 waveguides (it's the least I could do to support this effort).

Second, about where should the waveguide axis sit with respect to the user? I'll normally be sitting on a couch, and am trying to plan ahead a little and see if I need stands of some sort, or should I build the box taller.

I'm almost afraid to ask this question, but is there a clear advantage to the 15" vs. 12"? I have room for either, but I look the looks of the 12" better, frankly.

Thanks for a killer effort on this to all involved. It restores a lot of my faith in the internet!

John
post #5687 of 9844
"12" A&E model. I will get flat packs and crossover parts if needed"

I am excited for this. 3 for me. 😊
post #5688 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

jbl no longer represents anything close to a good value.
there are better offerings from 18sounds, bms, and many others.
[/quote]

I'm not in the market (can't have speakers that wide at home) so my voice may be worth discarding, but I agree. For "high end" it seems B&C or BMS makes more sense than JBL today. Also, Parts Express carries B&C if there's to be a tie-in.
post #5689 of 9844
The issue right now has to deal with getting the woofers. All the flat packs and compression drivers are very expensive. Like eye watering expensive. I went a little over board on the quantity of CD's so we don't run out very fast. I've also ordered sets of 10 woofers for some of the designs, but not all of them due to cost. Being able to drive to PE and pick things up for some of these designs certainly helps out to where I don't have to keep a 200 woofers "in stock".

And of course, there's still money tied into the SEOS units as well. So ideally we keep this one model using parts from PE.

Once people start ordering and the money comes back in for CD's and flat packs, I can order a decent number of woofers made by a brand PE doesn't necessarily sell.

If anyone has ideas for either a 15" model, or the JBL choice, please let me know.


I'm also within driving distance of MCM electronics and they carry the FaitalPro brand. I haven't been to MCM before, but they aren't too far from PE.
post #5690 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post

I want the TD15Ms when they come back from the abyss. The 18sound 15LW700 is also similar T/S to the 2226/TD15M. Not sure how it rates upper midrange, but they make good woofs..

Just wanted to let you know that your 'stuff' will be shipped no later than Tuesday. I'm caught up on these designs, so things will slow down for me to get everything else caught up.



Mr. Coctostan, I'll also be getting your order packed up this week.
post #5691 of 9844
I don't think you have to go with a JBL woofer specifically but it would be nice to have a higher budget orientated design. If the SEOS was designed for performance why limit the designs to all budget stuff ?
post #5692 of 9844
Erich, if you need to borrow a JBL 2226 I gotcha covered. Just shoot me a pm if you need so I don't miss it in the thread.
post #5693 of 9844
Which model would be best suited for 100% home theater? (LCR)
post #5694 of 9844
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

Which model would be best suited for 100% home theater? (LCR)

erich, all the designs are great but folks are going to need some guidance on what to build. a quick write up that shows the strengths and weaknesses of each of these builds might be something to consider.
post #5695 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

I don't think you have to go with a JBL woofer specifically but it would be nice to have a higher budget orientated design. If the SEOS was designed for performance why limit the designs to all budget stuff ?

Not all of it is budget, and certainly not setting limits on certain prices either. But the woofers that have been used so far were specifically due to how good they are versus price. And one goal was to make sure some of the first designs were priced extremely good so many people could afford them.

Let me know a woofer you would consider higher budget and I'll see what can be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabalocker View Post

Which model would be best suited for 100% home theater? (LCR)

All of them. Seriously, once you hear any of these in your theater you'll be extremely impressed. Some of your choice will depend on your budget. But even the cheapest designs will be extremely impressive for their price. That was the main idea behind picking certain woofers. None of them are bad or they wouldn't be done.

Now having said that, I think there might be others that are better for 100% music. But that will depend on whether you're using a subwoofer or not. BWaslo has designs for the Dayton Designer Series that would be better than most for music.....if you weren't going to use a subwoofer. That's because they were designed and tuned for the lower frequencies just in case someone was after such a speaker (I'm one of those people).
post #5696 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

jbl no longer represents anything close to a good value.
there are better offerings from 18sounds, bms, and many others.

True at full retail. But the JBLs are easy to find used at fraction of the cost. I am sure that is the reason many find the JBLs an attractive option.
post #5697 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

erich, all the designs are great but folks are going to need some guidance on what to build. a quick write up that shows the strengths and weaknesses of each of these builds might be something to consider.

That will be coming as they're listed on the site. It might not be immediate, but the designers will hopefully do a little write up per design. This is a huge undertaking, so it might not all be explained right off the bat.
post #5698 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Let me know a woofer you would consider higher budget and I'll see what can be done.
.

I am an electronics guy, if I knew anything about speakers I wouldnt have to rely on experts like you guys smile.gif
post #5699 of 9844
Having followed Java and Craig484's deltalite 12 builds, I have to say I'm finding the ~30 inch tall "mid-tower" form factor awfully attractive. Any flat packs or kits planned along those lines? Just curious, I'm capable of building my own cabinets to suit if need be.

Looking forward especially to see the details of the Jeff Bagby designs, they sound like great options for those that prefer mains with some bass.
post #5700 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

jbl no longer represents anything close to a good value.
there are better offerings from 18sounds, bms, and many others.

And when comparing JBL to AE?.....but yet we have an AE design and let's not forget the group buy funding/sale.
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