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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 191

post #5701 of 7533
11/24/12 at 9:59pm
Thread Starter 
^^^ yeah, there is the order fulfillment question though...not sure if you have followed the group buy saga....
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post #5702 of 7533
11/24/12 at 11:30pm
I think a JBL 2226H design would be great since they can be obtained for less than retail. It would be good for flat pack but, I don't know about speaker kitting it. I have 3 if you need to barrow one Erich.
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post #5703 of 7533
11/25/12 at 12:15pm
Thanks for the update Erich! I've always trusted you.

I still think the AE TD15M looks to be the killer high end woofer. Just wish we could get them reasonably.
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post #5704 of 7533
11/25/12 at 12:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by louisdamani View Post

I think a JBL 2226H design would be great since they can be obtained for less than retail. It would be good for flat pack but, I don't know about speaker kitting it. I have 3 if you need to barrow one Erich.

This.

Honestly I think people see the retail of the 2226 and get scared off.
I've been following this thread since the beginning and I can say I would have built SEOS by now if I hadn't got impatient and built the 4PI's. (thanks for the CD Erich!)

I got 3 2226's from ebay.
Two were 2226H in mint condition original cone for $190 each (these are in my completed L/R)
The last one was a 2226HPL. I won an auction for $140! Also nearly mint with original cone (soon to be the centre)

I can see two up right now for 199/250 that both look to be original as well.

I'll agree with josh, the AE drivers are beefy too, but what's the point if they're 10x harder to get the JBL's.
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post #5705 of 7533
11/25/12 at 12:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post

Thanks for the update Erich! I've always trusted you.
I still think the AE TD15M looks to be the killer high end woofer. Just wish we could get them reasonably.


The problem is availability.

There's always a 15-20% discount if bought in multiples.
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post #5706 of 7533
11/25/12 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I want to do at least one JBL woofer design but there's debate over which woofer size to use. As you can see we have quite a few 12" models already done. And I'm sure there will be more coming with different woofer brands as time goes on. But it could be a little while. However, there's only two 15" designs right now.
To me, it seems to make sense to design around the JBL 15" woofer versus yet another 12" woofer design. 12" or 15" JBL.

Erich,

At this point I imagine you know better, but I imagine 12" outsell 15" 10 to one, and for good reason: You get almost all of the performance (most of which will never be used in home use) for half the box size and less money.

As for the 2206H vs other 12", as others have pointed out, they're for much less than MSRP new, and are plentiful used.

If you're patient you can get them on ebay for ~$100, and I'd argue that for even double that you get the best bang/buck high end system.

To reiterate their virtues: very smooth response with well-controlled breakup allowing simple XO design, 4" low inductance VC giving very high power handling, low power compression, and low distortion, 5" deep allowing shallow cabinet.

As an aside, I'm not sure on what basis John at AE says they have a dustcap resonance issue, as I've never seen eveidence of it in a response measurement.

It would also be an unfathomable oversight given the design effort that went into the VGC (vented gap cooling) driver series.
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post #5707 of 7533
11/25/12 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

As for the 2206H vs other 12", as others have pointed out, they're for much less than MSRP new, and are plentiful used.

To prove this point look what I just found:
12" JBL 2206HPL 2206H Drivers/Speakers MINT CONDITION - $150
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post #5708 of 7533
11/25/12 at 2:26pm
Thread Starter 
"If subs are a given, I'd go with 2206H, probably.... " -Zilch

http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939&page=238
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post #5709 of 7533
11/25/12 at 2:48pm
I am patient (sort of). I am waiting till John delivers the GB and then stocks the usual suspects like he mentioned. I'm ordering TD15Ms then. We'll see.
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post #5710 of 7533
11/25/12 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

^^^ yeah, there is the order fulfillment question though...not sure if you have followed the group buy saga....

Saga......I can think of other choice four letter words for it. Not to toot my own horn but i saw this one coming miles away.....but sorry I digress and off topic.
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post #5711 of 7533
11/25/12 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"If subs are a given, I'd go with 2206H, probably.... " -Zilch
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=150939&page=238

I believe Zilch was constricting his choices to 12" woofers for Econowave variants.
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post #5712 of 7533
11/25/12 at 4:25pm
I took some sample photos of a few kits. I used 2 sheets of styrofoam for the base and background and it turned out pretty good. The website must compress the file because they don't look nearly as sharp as what I uploaded even after I shrunk them down. Oh well. The waveguide looks glossy, but it's actually matte. I guess the super white background is throwing it off. Both of these kits are going to be crazy cheap for what you get. The Beta comes in under $200 with the baffle, free shipping, Paypal fees, and the packing material. eek.gif

Here's Tuxedocivics Delta Max

delta_max.jpg



Here's my 10" model......nameless at the moment:

beta_10_kit3.jpg
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post #5713 of 7533
11/25/12 at 4:28pm
pics look great Erich. not sure what the back end for the site is but it is most likely compressing them a ton to fit the thumbnails. You could always put a link in the description to the high rez image if you wanted
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post #5714 of 7533
11/25/12 at 5:12pm
Nice pics. I can tell they are matte.

Yeah, you could just link the high res one to the thumb nail. Then we would click on the thumb to see the high res. all the other places do that.


Lets see the Baltic birch sub pics!!!!
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post #5715 of 7533
11/25/12 at 5:42pm
Wow!
Those photos are great Erich!!
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post #5716 of 7533
11/25/12 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Both of these kits are going to be crazy cheap for what you get. The Beta comes in under $200 with the baffle, free shipping, Paypal fees, and the packing material. eek.gif

Supreme deals on these kits Erich! You've done an amazing job on all of this. smile.gif
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post #5717 of 7533
11/25/12 at 10:53pm
Thanks guys. Of course without all the speaker designers, this wouldn't have amounted to very much. biggrin.gif

Thinking back to how good the SEOS tested when we had the prototypes made up, and now getting them used in speakers like this by some really good speakers designers is incredible. Granted it took a good amount of time, but the DIY community went from just some ideas, to prototypes, mass produced parts, and now completed speakers. And honestly, once they're all up, more completed speaker designs to chose from than many large companies offer. And with the quality of the waveguide and name brand parts, it's really quite an achievement.

My biggest fault was probably not finding someone that could help on the labor side. No doubt a few people have been aggravated with time frames, and I'm sure there will still be some aggravation until I get all of this caught up. But I see things getting better very soon. Honestly, this has been one of the hardest and most stressful years I've ever had. The waveguide project spawned other projects that all tied in with each other. And some parts were pretty difficult while this was all going on, they just weren't talked about. So I'm glad to see it finally coming together. Bwaslo probably doesn't think he helped out too much. But having someone with his knowledge within driving distance made things much easier. It kept me on track because I could see things were getting better.
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post #5718 of 7533
11/26/12 at 4:45am
Been looking abit on these, and i wonder if im gonna miss something vs a 2 1/2 - 3 way speaker?

questions
1 . can this be made into a 3 way if so, dose it up the sound quality if one added in a 2x 8" 0r 1x10" mid and had the 12-15" as a mid/bass unit, maby one that could go low 40hz and be port tuned to go lower for music?? if you put all 3 in sealed rooms and have ports for mid and/or mid/bass woofer?

2. how are the DENOVO DNA-360 COMPRESSION DRIVER sounding, i rather like the ribbon sound i have now "Fountek NeoCd3.0 tweeter" , is this similar, How do it handle voices ect.

3 what upgrades is there if i wanted a slight more exp set for higher sound quality.

4. whats the sound like midrange if i wanted to make the 15" version? vs 12" will it be more slopy/slow and not fast?
Edited by simple100 - 11/26/12 at 4:57am
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post #5719 of 7533
11/26/12 at 5:27am
OK, I'll bite.... Whats up with this little guy?

65160

DNA-205.bmp 1488k .bmp file
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post #5720 of 7533
11/26/12 at 6:58am
Nick, that's this. http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=69.0

It's really good. The response is so smooth. It's in my Delta Pure, Erich's beta speaker, and in the little mayhem.
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post #5721 of 7533
11/26/12 at 6:59am
Simple 100, that's a tricky question. What kind of speaker do you have now?
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post #5722 of 7533
11/26/12 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Thanks guys. Of course without all the speaker designers, this wouldn't have amounted to very much. biggrin.gif
Thinking back to how good the SEOS tested when we had the prototypes made up, and now getting them used in speakers like this by some really good speakers designers is incredible. Granted it took a good amount of time, but the DIY community went from just some ideas, to prototypes, mass produced parts, and now completed speakers. And honestly, once they're all up, more completed speaker designs to chose from than many large companies offer. And with the quality of the waveguide and name brand parts, it's really quite an achievement.
My biggest fault was probably not finding someone that could help on the labor side. No doubt a few people have been aggravated with time frames, and I'm sure there will still be some aggravation until I get all of this caught up. But I see things getting better very soon. Honestly, this has been one of the hardest and most stressful years I've ever had. The waveguide project spawned other projects that all tied in with each other. And some parts were pretty difficult while this was all going on, they just weren't talked about. So I'm glad to see it finally coming together. Bwaslo probably doesn't think he helped out too much. But having someone with his knowledge within driving distance made things much easier. It kept me on track because I could see things were getting better.

Erich,
The above sums up a terrific project by a group of; hardworking, selfless, sharing, enthusiastic people.
Although I am a newbie >> THANK YOU to Erich, and everyone involved for pulling this together !!
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post #5723 of 7533
11/26/12 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by simple100 View Post

Been looking abit on these, and i wonder if im gonna miss something vs a 2 1/2 - 3 way speaker?
questions
1 . can this be made into a 3 way if so, dose it up the sound quality if one added in a 2x 8" 0r 1x10" mid and had the 12-15" as a mid/bass unit, maby one that could go low 40hz and be port tuned to go lower for music?? if you put all 3 in sealed rooms and have ports for mid and/or mid/bass woofer?
2. how are the DENOVO DNA-360 COMPRESSION DRIVER sounding, i rather like the ribbon sound i have now "Fountek NeoCd3.0 tweeter" , is this similar, How do it handle voices ect.
3 what upgrades is there if i wanted a slight more exp set for higher sound quality.
4. whats the sound like midrange if i wanted to make the 15" version? vs 12" will it be more slopy/slow and not fast?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Simple 100, that's a tricky question. What kind of speaker do you have now?
´


i currently run 2 1/2 tower fronts + same elements in my center " 2x SEAS Excel element 6.5 - phase plug and a coated magnesium cone mid - mid/bass woofer / Fountek NeoCd3.0 tweeter" i really like the ribbon sound for movies. SR are M&K k4 tripoles and M&K s-85pro

I drive this whit a Onkyo NR 906 and a Yammaha MX-1000 power amp + oppo bd95
i will be upgrading this at some point to pre+ power 2/3ch + 5ch, haven't decided on anything yet..
Edited by simple100 - 11/26/12 at 10:45am
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post #5724 of 7533
11/26/12 at 9:45am
Hey whatever happened with SEOS emblems?
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post #5725 of 7533
11/26/12 at 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by simple100 View Post

" 2x SEAS Excel element 6.5" mid - mid/bass woofer / Fountek NeoCd3.0 tweeter" .

I really think the midrange will be better than this of one of the good SEOS designs. That has got to have some directivity matching issues, especially if crossed at 2500hz as recommended by Fountek. The directivity control of the larger SEOS speakers will also help reduce room influence, something your speaker is not doing.

Nice components though.
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post #5726 of 7533
11/26/12 at 10:56am
i think the cross over is 2200 - 2400ish, but the sears w18 is quoted to be able to handle 40hz to 2500.
but im not expert on this matter, i have bought these made.

thanks for the answers they look rather interresting to me thise speakers,
if possible can someone answer some of the other questions i have.
Edited by simple100 - 11/26/12 at 11:04am
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post #5727 of 7533
11/26/12 at 11:12am
The SEAS W18 has insane amounts of break up. A lot of people who have used the driver claim it should be crossed below 1500hz. Even lower. Then there is the directivity and driver spacing issues. I don't know what design this is. Maybe it's very good. I'm just saying what I can gather, I think the SEOS would be better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simple100 View Post

1 . can this be made into a 3 way if so, dose it up the sound quality if one added in a 2x 8" 0r 1x10" mid and had the 12-15" as a mid/bass unit, maby one that could go low 40hz and be port tuned to go lower for music?? if you put all 3 in sealed rooms and have ports for mid and/or mid/bass woofer?

Most here are planning to use subs, which is the best approach honestly. And for those without subs, they're using less effecient 12"ers to get them the bass, while remaining 2-way. 3 way adds a lot of complexity, and likely no benefit. If the woofer is good quality, it should play to 1khz without much issue. Your idea isn't an impossible one though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simple100 View Post

2. how are the DENOVO DNA-360 COMPRESSION DRIVER sounding, i rather like the ribbon sound i have now "Fountek NeoCd3.0 tweeter" , is this similar, How do it handle voices ect.

The voices I'm getting from mine are great. Remember, voices aren't all tweeter related. They're woofer and cross over related as well. I think others can answer this better though. There is a member here with a speaker with a RAAL tweeter in it who's working on a SEOS speaker. Eternal Velocity. He could maybe give his thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simple100 View Post

3 what upgrades is there if i wanted a slight more exp set for higher sound quality.

The Acoustic Elegance versions the Bwaslo did are probably the most high end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simple100 View Post

4. whats the sound like midrange if i wanted to make the 15" version? vs 12" will it be more slopy/slow and not fast?

It doesn't work like that. There may be more cone break up closer to the cross over with the 15" version. It takes a pretty good 15" to pull off 1khz well. But if it can, and the cross over does it's job well, then it should sound "right".
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post #5728 of 7533
11/26/12 at 12:03pm
Depends on what tradeoffs you want to make.

Any of the big woofer + SEOS designs will blow the SEAS + ribbon away with dynamics. However, the pro solutions will never match the subtle detail capability of the SEAS + ribbon. Consider 2x2 (4) W18s as mids between a large SEOS and a 15" woofer. The W18s could relieve any low end stress from the CD plus "clarify" the mids over a big pro woofer. As mentioned earlier, the magnesium cones are not particularly easy to work with so it would take a good crossover guy to do the design.

Crossover implementation would make or break the design.
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post #5729 of 7533
11/26/12 at 12:47pm
thanks tux and pnw.


Well im basicly playing whit the ideas.
i use 2x 12" subs currently While i really like my front end, like all sound heads i want more, or i want to have other experiences.
ill try find the Bwaslo one so i can see it smile.gif thanks

On this build, only thing im worried about is, if im going to miss the sound i have due to the ribbon and mid - and i really want to try make my own these design look nice and have a great size.

Like pnw said, If one could trow in 2x sears 6.5" maby the paper one whit magnesium cap or any similar good mid, you could put in a woofer then could go maby 45hz and then have a few port holes to make it go lower, whit port-plugs in for movies. smile.gif if its possible, that's how my current speaker work, its a tower whit the bass woofer in its own section bottom 2 x port-plugs, and the top is basically 2way, whit a port-plug.

So maby the design could be like the seos 12/15 while having the woofer in a sealed box in the bottom of the speaker same mesurments and then the tweeter in top same size box, while adding in the middle box maby sealed on its own or together whit the tweeter i dono how that will work.
and i mean not a sub woofer in it, but a great mid/bass unit that can handle some low Hz like 40-45 too so you can have the option to crossover lower if you want to , and only use the 2 front for music,
Edited by simple100 - 11/26/12 at 12:55pm
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post #5730 of 7533
11/26/12 at 1:01pm
Erich has a really nice decent price 15 pro woofer he hasn't talked about yet. Does 1khz easily. and with a smooth rolloff. The one I measured I thought was better (flatter) in the midrange than the TD15m and better behaved. In the bass I don't know (no high level tests). Also don't know about consistency, just checked one. Bug him about it, see if this will become a thing. He needs something else to spend his time and money on!
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