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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 201

post #6001 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post
Mrkazador-
How big can you go with your surrounds? The Daniels can be made very shallow and you will have very wide vertical nulls so your vertical coverage will be excellent. This is generally more important for surrounds than L/C/Rs because you are generally closer to the surrounds.
Coax surrounds can be nice, but I don't know of many designs and the higher quality drivers are expensive. I think the Daniels are a far better route and still pretty small.

My problem is height... I don't want a box taller than 10-12" and 8" depth is ok. Width I don't care as much but would like it to be as small as possible.

post #6002 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

Good point Erich if all these new designs are for SEOS-12.
I think there has to be an understanding that Erich is putting significant effort into getting these designs completed. He recruited top notch designers and likely supplied them with drivers to work with. IMO, Erich can do as he pleases with the designs in accordance with whatever agreement he has with the designers.

I don't disagree with you at all, I'm just throwing out some wishes here. Selling schematics could be done fully automatic via his website and it would bring profit without effort. If a crossover design would include his proprietary CD's then he could sell the CD's and the schematics together. I just think the more flexible his kits would be, the more he would sell. Of course it is totally up the owner of the designs to do as he or she pleases.
post #6003 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlim View Post

I don't disagree with you at all, I'm just throwing out some wishes here. Selling schematics could be done fully automatic via his website and it would bring profit without effort. If a crossover design would include his proprietary CD's then he could sell the CD's and the schematics together. I just think the more flexible his kits would be, the more he would sell. Of course it is totally up the owner of the designs to do as he or she pleases.

Don't worry, that's still an option. I just haven't gotten to that point yet, or talked to the designers. From my perspective, it doesn't matter how many sell. The benefit of more selling simply means that the break even point for the waveguide gets closer. biggrin.gif

I've got a decent number of the kits listed and in stock. And I just ordered some remaining inductors that were out of stock on some items, so they should be here soon. The shipping boxes from Uline showed up.....on a pallet as well.



It's crazy to see what these could be priced at if not for the Paypal fees, and the free shipping I try to shoot for. On anything around $300, the Paypal fee is about $10. Shipping box is $3, and I'm guessing free shipping to be around $20 - $25. So those 3 things add nearly $40 to the price.....but there's obviously no way around it. But it does show that these are being sold at break even costs that's for sure.


Pricing might change a little once I start packing things up and seeing what the actual shipping costs are. The Definimax woofer itself weighs nearly 30lbs once boxed up. Add in a few pounds for the crossover, 5lbs for the CD, 8 for the baffle......I doubt that box will ship for $25. So it will probably be going up just a little.
post #6004 of 9846
Well that is just great news Eric! And if you think shipping domestic is expensive, imagine shipping a box with a couple of waveguides, drivers, CD's, flat packs etc to Europe! eek.gif
post #6005 of 9846
erich, what does the "full enclosure upgrade" add to the price, the option for it does not seem to be enabled yet. Im just trying to formulate some numbers in my hear on the amount of money im going to be spending
post #6006 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

After what happened last year and this year, (I didn't even mention all of it) I'd like to protect the designers hard work so they can possibly get something back for helping on this huge project. None of them asked for money at all. Not one. I suggested a little per design ($5 - $20 depending on the speaker), they said it wasn't necessary. But as mentioned earlier, if they don't take it, they'll get it somehow.

That is awesome. I just wanted to say that.
post #6007 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

You own an audio business so I would assume you understand why that's not the best idea with some of these kits after my previous post. Yes, I realize that you're trustworthy. But the world wide webz is a big place full of some that are not so nice.

If all he wanted was to steal the design, he would just order a kit. This being said, to the OP, agree with others that say that the best thing to do is email the designer.
post #6008 of 9846
Erich - I just sent you a PM
post #6009 of 9846
Hi All,
I'm new here - I'm on the Parts Express board, where I read about the SEOS. Sorry about the long post - I have a few questions at the bottom if you don't want to read my whole life story. smile.gif

I'm looking at building a pair of the new Bagby Definimax-12 kits for a home HT setup in an approximately 20x35 open-floorplan space. Right now I've got a pair of Tarkus speakers designed by Paul Carmody, which are great. They are backed up by 4x AE-IB15 in a manifold in the ceiling, but I never use the subs for 2-channel or casual TV watching, just movies. Distance from listening position to mains is about 13 feet. I like action movies to play at about 80-83db with peaks up to 90db or so. The room is not treated and has reflective wood flooring and loads of windows.

I'm looking for a new project, and it would be hard to down-size after getting used to a lot of output from the Tarkus biggrin.gif I don't have any experience with constant directivity designs, and thought it would be fun to build an Econowave.

I'm drawn to the Definimax driver because it seems to play lower than any of the other Econowaves (?) allowing use without a sub. It seems like they might be complete overkill but I'd rather build a high-end model and have no regrets later.

So I hope some of the people who have built some of the SEOS designs can chime in:

-Would a floor-standing box of identical volume and the same baffle width be OK? Maybe 38-39" high so the WG is at ear level? I don't really like stands.

-The woodworking aspect is the most enjoyable part for me - will be possible to order the whole kit without the baffle? I guess it's no big deal to get the baffle and then not use it, but it seems like a waste.

-I'm also wondering if slot-porting is possible?


Very excited to see all these cool new kits. Thanks Erich for your website and all the work that must be going into it.

Colin
post #6010 of 9846
I can't wait for the bb subwoofer flat packs.
post #6011 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Crash View Post

If all he wanted was to steal the design, he would just order a kit. This being said, to the OP, agree with others that say that the best thing to do is email the designer.


I didn't say that he was going to "steal" the design. I know HomeTheaterDoc and have shipped him plenty of things. I have no issues with him at all.

The idea was for it to be sold as a kit to help lower the price and allow for free shipping. To me, that seems like a good thing. Right now the price is actually cheaper than buying everything separately, and it all ships for free. I'm trying to help out by doing that, not cause a problem.

This whole thing is a bit strange to me. We worked hard to get the kit, I ordered all the correct shipping boxes, designed and ordered all the baffles, package it for free so the price is actually less than retail, and there's questions about how to break it all up and make it more expensive. I honestly can't figure out why. And I'm being serious when I say that. Because the kit price is cheaper than retail, why would someone not want the full kit using the same parts that the designer used?

Even if we're talking about guys overseas wanting to build them and source all parts in their country, it's still cheaper. The fiberglass SEOS would be $125 and the DE250 is $130 ($255 total). The plastic SEOS and DNA-360 are nearly $150 less per speaker! Shipping an extra 2lbs worth of crossover parts in the same box doesn't add any extra to the shipping price, and still saves almost $300 per pair. Even if shipping was $100 for the waveguides, CDs, and crossover parts.....it still saves someone in another country $200. To me, this is a good thing. Or have I been beating my head against a wall trying to get all this stuff for super cheap prices? biggrin.gif

Hopefully with the low price, we don't forget just how good the SEOS waveguide is. It's simply icing on the cake that the DIY community now has access to them and the compression drivers to build top of the line speakers for much less money. Anyone that goes with ANY of these kits saves $300 per pair right off the bat just by using those 2 parts, not to mention the end quality of the speaker itself.

However, if anyone wants to spend more, they can just send me gift card to somewhere nice! biggrin.gif
Edited by Erich H - 12/5/12 at 4:31pm
post #6012 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

I can't wait for the bb subwoofer flat packs.

same

also i want to punch the dude in the face that first said "the best things come to those who wait"

gahhhh
post #6013 of 9846
+1

I will be ordering kits, and I really appreciate the value.

Note that I'm a research electrical engineer who designs and builds stuff for a living, I have access to all the equipment needed, and then some, and am a passable woodworker as well, so I can do the whole thing. But, I've got two busy kids, 3 pets, a wife who's busy as well, and a house where something always needs a repair. To me, the kits are a godsend and an absolute bargain. The amount of time and engineering effort is astounding - there must be a few man-years into this, more if you count all the years the designers spent building up experience. If it weren't for the kits, it would take me years to get to the same place, and I'd spend 10x as much. By the time I was done, I'd lose another kHz or two off my ears!

Did I mention that I really think the kits are a great idea?

John
post #6014 of 9846
Long time lurker, first time poster

I've been following this thread for a while. Very exciting lately. What a remarkable development for the diy community! Congratulations and many thanks to Erich and contributing developers.

Quick question for Erich: Regarding the discussion about the ideal surround SEOS speaker and "Daniel", I remember you briefly stating that one or two SEOS speakers with dual 6" woofers were in development. Any update?
post #6015 of 9846
Thread Starter 
"This whole thing is a bit strange to me. We worked hard to get the kit, I ordered all the correct shipping boxes, designed and ordered all the baffles, package it for free so the price is actually less than retail, and there's questions about how to break it all up and make it more expensive. I honestly can't figure out why."

i completely understand where you are coming from, but i don't think that is the sentiment. at least it is certainly not mine. the way that i view it is that this is a diy community where folks share what they know. there have been a ton folks who have made all kinds of different contributions to the seos project because the expectation was that it was "everybody helping everybody", not everybody helps to create a product that can only be purchased from one guy.

i know designing a crossover takes work, but so do a lot of other things folks do to help each other out around here. even wayne parham offers his plans for free to diy'ers. zilch would probably turnover in his grave to see such a great collective effort end in a secret crossover.

i'm not saying that either perspective is right or wrong, just sharing an altervative view.

and, i suspect that most folks will buy the kits anyways, so it really doesn't matter. :-)


"So I hope some of the people who have built some of the SEOS designs can chime in:
-Would a floor-standing box of identical volume and the same baffle width be OK? Maybe 38-39" high so the WG is at ear level? I don't really like stands."

yeah, that should be fine. just block off the portion of the cab that you do not need.

"-The woodworking aspect is the most enjoyable part for me - will be possible to order the whole kit without the baffle? I guess it's no big deal to get the baffle and then not use it, but it seems like a waste."

not sure.

"-I'm also wondering if slot-porting is possible?"

yes, but depending on the bracing, you may need to make some modifications.
Edited by LTD02 - 12/5/12 at 7:19pm
post #6016 of 9846
Thread Starter 
"I'm looking at building a pair of the new Bagby Definimax-12 kits for a home HT setup in an approximately 20x35 open-floorplan space. Right now I've got a pair of Tarkus speakers designed by Paul Carmody, which are great."

https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/tarkus

i'm not really sure that you would gain a whole lot there on the lower end. the lower sensitivity drivers benefit by providing more bass extension.

high sensitivity drivers are more commonly used in combination with subwoofers below about 80-100hz or so. in order to get high sensitivity full range, the tradeoff is the cabs tend to be large.

model of the tarkus woofer and the eminence woofer in the tarkus sized cab both tuned to 30hz.



this is how that driver might more commonly be employed. note now it has 4-6db more sensitivity across its usable range. that is like doubling to quadrupling the amp power. but most music could benefit from subwoofers in that configuration.



something like a 4pi added just for comparison (yellow). now you can start to see how these big high sensitivity drivers begin to compare. mid-bass is their wheelhouse.



it might also be a good idea to list the sensitivities on the diysoundgroup site as 1w1m, not 2.83v, as that will confuse people.

here is an example of a woof that is both high sensitivity and has has a low f3, but he cab is 6 cubic feet. tradeoffs.

the jbl 2235h (not shown) has the same frequency response in a 4.5 cubic footer tuned to 28hz, but about 2db less sensitivity. tradeoffs.

these drivers trade off a little bit in the midrange for more extended bass.


Edited by LTD02 - 12/5/12 at 11:13pm
post #6017 of 9846
I saw don't sweat the petty things, pet the sweaty things.

If you see a design you want to build, buy the stuff, the design will come with or follow. Else DIY. I am just happy the stuff to do the DIY is available here.
post #6018 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

zilch would probably turnover in his grave to see such a great collective effort end in a secret crossover.

Not to pick on you, as several others have voiced the same sentiment, but I think Erich's intent is misunderstood.

The measures he's taken were not to to keep anything secret, but to make sure no one else could take control his hard-earned IP.
post #6019 of 9846
Some designers posted their schematics here or over at diysoundgroup, others haven't. It's really up to them. If Jeff wants it posted he can post it. Take it up with him not with Erich.
post #6020 of 9846
Thread Starter 
fair enough.
post #6021 of 9846
removing.... not worth it....
Edited by hometheaterdoc - 12/6/12 at 5:01am
post #6022 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i know designing a crossover takes work, but so do a lot of other things folks do to help each other out around here. even wayne parham offers his plans for free to diy'ers. zilch would probably turnover in his grave to see such a great collective effort end in a secret crossover.
i'm not saying that either perspective is right or wrong, just sharing an altervative view.
and, i suspect that most folks will buy the kits anyways, so it really doesn't matter. :-)


**** There are no secret crossovers. ****

Again, I'm not hoarding crossovers. But I'm not going to openly post someones crossover work. I have no problem posting mine if someone wants to print it on their pillow so they can sleep better at night, but I'm not going to post one from someone else. It's not my right to do that. I really don't know how else I can say it. Should I post the cut sheets for Bill Fitzmaurice's speakers?

There are quite a few SEOS designs that have already been openly posted......and I didn't post those either. It really bothers me that someone makes one comment saying 'I don't want to buy the woofer from you, I don't want the kit from you, I don't want the parts from you, I just want the crossover'............. before I even have a chance to get the kit listed on the site........and now I've become some type of crazy man keeping secret designs to himself.

I think your comment about Zilch was a bit much. Zilch did indeed plan on making and getting donation money from the designs he was going to be tweaking. That was one reason why he was about to start a new website.

And what should I tell some designers that worked hard so people would donate money to their favorite charity? Do you really think everyone that builds 5 speakers is going to say "Oh, I better not forget to donate $50 to that charity in the name of so and so, once I remember how to do it." I can assure you, it would be extremely rare. It's MUCH easier to add $10 to the kit. Getting the plastic waveguide and CD save each person over $150 per speaker. And I'm glad I was able to get that done. Is it that crazy hoping $10 towards a designer or designer's charity would be okay?

To me, this has all gotten ridiculous. I lost track of the amount invested in this project when it exceeded $35k. And that was a while ago. Keep in mind, that doesn't count the compression drivers, or flat packs, or the sample woofers, crossover boards, etc, etc. I've never asked for donations for myself, and I'm not doing that now. The ONLY thing that I'm asking.......after all of this.......is that a VERY small donation is added to each kit that goes *NOT TO ME*, but directly to the designer that worked hard on a crossover, as a way to say thanks. None of them asked for it, but I thought it was the right thing to do as a community. Doesn't that sound like a great idea?

But I guess somehow because I haven't openly posted just one of these crossovers (that's not even mine), I must be a crazy DIY audio nut trying to keep all of this secret. If anyone saw what my shop looked like, knew the hours invested, and realized how hard I've worked on this project and others, I wouldn't be looked at as selfish, but certainly a nut. rolleyes.gif

Myself and the designers have been working hard for the past month to get all these kits ready. They're listed on the site. I'll box them up if the orders are placed. If you pay by check, it will save you a 3% Paypal fee. If you stop by and pick them up, it will save you $3-$4 for packing material and you'll save the free shipping amount I figured in. If you don't want to donate to the designer, or designer's charity, I'll subtract that $10 off as well.
Edited by Erich H - 12/6/12 at 7:08am
post #6023 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

I don't want to steal anything.


I NEVER.....EVER said you or any other DIY guy was going to steal anything.......EVER......EVER.



I will not post a crossover design that is not mine. There are already crossover designs posted for the SEOS, and I didn't post those either.......because they aren't mine.
Edited by Erich H - 12/5/12 at 9:35pm
post #6024 of 9846
Erich, do your thing brother. It's all too easy to get pissed off over all the outside static with some wanting this or that. You've commissioned the best speaker designers out there to make possible what would be impossible for most. How about a donate button for an all expenses paid vacation for YOU! Oh, and a laptop for Bill so he doesn't have to do 99% of this from his smartphone! Seriously, man.
post #6025 of 9846
Thread Starter 
"I've got to step away from this project for at least a few days or this is going to bother me."

hey man, if that is how you feel, i think something got lost in the translation. my apologies.
post #6026 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

hey man, if that is how you feel, i think something got lost in the translation. my apologies.

I'm sure things did get lost in translation. Basically I'm trying to do what I thought most people wanted, and at the same time have a good outcome for others involved in the project. It was a win/win situation.
post #6027 of 9846
Sometimes things in emails, forum posts, etc. can be read with a different emphasis and emotion than what was intended by the writer.

Posts that are meant to simply voice an opinion can easily be taken as criticism or pressure to follow said opinion.
post #6028 of 9846
Erich,
Although I am somewhat of a newbie; I will say ti again:
It is obvious from the history in this thread that you have done an excellent job and gone WAY BEYOND expectation.
The gratitude within this thread needs to overshadow the "static".


Also:
Just sent you a 2nd PM to clarify my order (with the some $'s designated to the designer/charity idea).
THANK YOU AGAIN!!
post #6029 of 9846
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Erich,
Although I am somewhat of a newbie; I will say ti again:
It is obvious from the history in this thread that you have done an excellent job and gone WAY BEYOND expectation.
The gratitude within this thread needs to overshadow the "static".

Also:
Just sent you a 2nd PM to clarify my order (with the some $'s designated to the designer/charity idea).
THANK YOU AGAIN!!


It's not all my doings, and I don't want to take that kind of credit. The speaker designers and guys that helped with the SEOS design did a lot more than I did. If not for them, we'd have a ball of fiberglass, a nice piece of plastic, or a wooden enclosure with no components.

We've just gone off on a tangent about crossover schematics before they were even listed on the site as complete, when they're not mine to post anyway.

The gratitude should definitely be directed towards the designers. biggrin.gif
Edited by Erich H - 12/6/12 at 7:20am
post #6030 of 9846
Agreed - also obvious there is a great team working together here! Big thank You to those creating a terrific speaker benefit for the rest of us!
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