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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 203

post #6061 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The board demands more build pics of SEOS / TD builds before the meeting is adjourned! biggrin.gif

VETO

No can do until I get my drivers!
post #6062 of 9857
What! I thought you had yours frown.gif I guess you've only got your BA750 and waveguide.
post #6063 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

The board demands more build pics of SEOS / TD builds before the meeting is adjourned! biggrin.gif

Oh, right! Executive session! biggrin.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

VETO
No can do until I get my drivers!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg40403 View Post

You will get pix AFTER I get my TD15M's...no discussion is permitted over there. mad.gif

The latest update is at least promising, fellas. wink.gif
post #6064 of 9857
I think some of you might be as crazy as I am. Well, maybe not quite. I should post some current photos of the small "warehouse" area where I store all of this stuff. I might even have some before and after photos from last year to this year. Now that would be interesting. biggrin.gif The reason I stopped most of the ordering last month wasn't just to get all these kits ready, I also finished up a small insulated room with a whole wall of shelving and a packaging area. Last winter was not so fun packing things up in the cold. cool.gif No problem now.

The issue I see with taking this to the next level is fairly obvious. The SEOS project is great, but outside of the AVS forum, not many people know about it. And regarding flat pack speaker kits for the other stuff, outside PE and AVS, not many people know about that either. But internet advertising is very expensive. As in 'Excuse me, how much was that again". It's not just a couple hundred dollars per month.

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem hiring someone and making a go at it, but an internet audio company is likely pretty tough to get rolling. I don't mind the challenge but right now, if no one orders anything, not a big deal. However if I actually had to make money on the stuff to pay for things? Well, that's a different story. Flat packs and DIY kits probably wouldn't be enough. That means completed speakers would need to be looked at. Then we're in competition with companies I might not want to be "competing" with.

I've already talked to PE to see if they wanted to sell the SEOS-12, and they probably will. They said they don't have to mark it up like some of their other stuff because it would likely be purchased with other things they sell. But they still need to mark them up a little for their free shipping. I highly doubt they'd like to sell them........for more than I do. That would be like Chevy selling trucks direct from the factory cheaper than the dealerships.

So maybe they could include that screw on to bolt on adapter I have in the same box for a bit more. If I made them $30, and PE sold them for $35 and included the adapter, it might work out. Then the SEOS design would be seen by many more audio guys. People start looking for kits, then find the incredible DIY Sound Group website and get hooked! Millions start buying kits, Polk and Klipsch go out of business, the DIY speaker designers are getting more money and livin' it up! A far stretch of course. But I have thought about some of that, and it's not out of the question.

The DIY Sound Group website wasn't really suppose to revolve around these waveguides, but they have taken center stage for the moment. The idea was always speaker kits. Now if I talked to the designers, and we agreed to put all these designs under one business name but clearly show who did the design work, then in theory, the DIY community could get much more recognition. That's what I've been thinking about more than anything. It's pretty much set up that way, I just haven't pushed it very hard. But I could be easily persuaded. biggrin.gif
post #6065 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

Sorry if I missed it in this thread, but how do I upgrade a kit to add the flat pack? I am looking at buying the Definimax - 12 kit, but I don't see the option to include the flat pack. Is it just not listed yet?
Thanks,
Nick

I've got a decent number of the flat packs, I just have to get a photo and get them uploaded to the site. They won't be shipped in the same box as the kit due to their weight. So don't worry, they're available.
post #6066 of 9857
Erich

You have expenses. Even if you don't want to build an internet for-profit business you shouldn't be pumping your kid's college fund into this venture. At least put enough margin on everything so that you're not digging a deeper financial hole with every shipment.

You've helped create an amazing community here. We're all grateful.

Pete
post #6067 of 9857
how would one let you know he wants the entire flatpack right now? because this pretty much describes me at this moment


post #6068 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I've got a decent number of the flat packs, I just have to get a photo and get them uploaded to the site. They won't be shipped in the same box as the kit due to their weight. So don't worry, they're available.


Eric,

the isues you see whit internet, and ads expenses, there's really no need to make ads, the speaker/build treads speak for them-self, what i suggest is using the platform your using now : forums.

make the ppl you know, copy their treads onto other forums, and yourself post yours on other forums, there might be as many as 10 big forums you can post on, no ads will give you more exposure than that,
further more, maby sent your speakers to some sort of review/online magazine site, there prob plenty too select from.

This might be a little legg work, but will properly pay off in the end, you can even link to your own forum and reviews on other sites too.

GL. thanks for the speakers.
post #6069 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

how would one let you know he wants the entire flatpack right now? because this pretty much describes me at this moment


I will take that from you, and Erich can send you the kits at a later time.


tongue.gif
post #6070 of 9857
How cool would it be for a pair of flat pack speakers to be sent to a major audio / home theater magazine and have review done on them. Traffic to the site would explode.
post #6071 of 9857
Thread Starter 
call me cynical. it wouldn't be cool at all. they would give it a crap rating because erich isn't going to spend $20k/month on advertising in order to sell the speaks and the reviewers aren't about to rate a flat pack kit higher than any of their paying customers.

just imagine it. "we heard about this guy with some flat packs that were designed by a bunch of random diy guys, so we got our hands on some. to our surprise they outperform everything that we have reviewed in the past 14 years for dynamics, clarity of dialog in movies, and imaging. why spend $10k when for a few hundred per kit and a little time putting them together, you can have better performance. i suppose the more expensive ones look a little prettier, but who has the lights on during a movie?" :-)~

reviewers are just going to continue with the same nonsense that they have since the beginning. describing speakers in terms of rythym, tunefullness, and pace. notice how this may be the first post in this entire thread that even mentions those three words, that is how you know that sh_t doesn't float here or something to that effect. :-)

social media is the marketing key for these.
Edited by LTD02 - 12/7/12 at 7:02pm
post #6072 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The issue I see with taking this to the next level is fairly obvious. The SEOS project is great, but outside of the AVS forum, not many people know about it. And regarding flat pack speaker kits for the other stuff, outside PE and AVS, not many people know about that either. But internet advertising is very expensive. As in 'Excuse me, how much was that again". It's not just a couple hundred dollars per month.

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem hiring someone and making a go at it, but an internet audio company is likely pretty tough to get rolling. I don't mind the challenge but right now, if no one orders anything, not a big deal. However if I actually had to make money on the stuff to pay for things? Well, that's a different story. Flat packs and DIY kits probably wouldn't be enough. That means completed speakers would need to be looked at. Then we're in competition with companies I might not want to be "competing" with.

First and foremost, parts alone won't sell very well over longer term. Parts with fully baked kits / plans do. People buy the expectation of what's possible, and the more who realize that the more which will sell.

Fact: In nearly 8 years of operation I have yet to directly pay for online advertising, and I currently have products in >25 countries. I will probably do some level of involvement with AVS in the coming year, but that is something only worth bothering with after you reach a threshold where it's justified. I suspect you are greatly underestimating the audience and reach at AVS. You don't need to blast 100,000 random internet users interested in audio, you only need to get in front of the 1,000 who aren't afraid of their screwdriver. wink.gif

Just because you start charging a more sustainable price, doesn't mean you have to quit your "real" job. In fact the strongest position is to start where this is not your only source of income. Finding someone who can use some part-time work of packing up boxes is the easiest way to save yourself a ton of time. For a few years of early growth I was the perpetual employer of out-of-work friends. Price accordingly and let it grow organically.

Organic growth doesn't mean you don't put effort to it, but rather have some patience while helping the tree grow rather than spending the extra money for the shortcut of planting the more mature, fruit bearing tree. wink.gif
post #6073 of 9857
Hi Guys,

I was a bit surprised by all of the posts surrounding my decision to not post my crossovers, so I thought a little explanation might be in order.

I have contributed a lot to the DIY community and I have never asked for anything in return. To me it is about the community - building it up, making friends, and doing what I can to help it grow. Software like mine could sell for hundreds of dollars, but I give it out freely in a spreadsheet because it is being used by people who I feel are a lot like me, so I choose to support them. In addition, I have done design work for SalkSound, CSS ( Creative Sound Solutions), TC Sounds, Eminence, Meniscus, and others, and I have never requested any compensation for my work. I have, however, asked that some of my crossover designs be kept out of the public domain - for a reason.

This brings us to these new designs I have done for Erich at DIYsoundgroup; I have made the same request here as well. My reason is simple.... It took Erich a while to talk me into doing these designs. The first couple of times he asked I turned him down. I get asked to do this sort of thing a lot and I am pretty picky about who I give my time away to. Then, after looking into it a little I really liked what I saw from Erich, and I have a lot of respect for what he is trying to do. My decision to do these designs, and there will be several altogether, was for the purpose of supportring what Erich is attempting to build up. Because of this I asked Erich to treat the crossovers as proprietary designs requiring the purchase of the kit to receive it. This helps to build what Erich is doing and that benefits all of us in the end. Now, if Erich works out a price for purchasing the design details including the crossover separately, I am good with that. My goal, again, is to support him. He has worked very hard to provide this service for everyone and ultimately I want to see him get rewarded for his hard work.

I know someone said that as soon as a kit is sold the "secret is out". Sure, this sort of thing only applies to honest and honorable people. But in the end our honor and integrity is really all we have left, especially in an internet community. I will leave all of that up to you. As for me, as I have done with the companies I mentioned above - I plan to support what Erich is doing. I'll leave running the business up to him.

Now, there were some questions about measurements. Several are posted in this thread linked below.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?235069-So-who-s-going-to-build-Jeff-Bagby-s-Definimax-12-SEOS-Econowave

I hope they will help you in making your decisions. I worked very hard to make the best speakers I could, exactly the way I would if they were for someone like Salksound. I want the community to benefit from them.

Jeff Bagby
post #6074 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

call me cynical. it wouldn't be cool at all. they would give it a crap rating because erich isn't going to spend $20k/month on advertising in order to sell the speaks and the reviewers aren't about to rate a flat pack kit higher than any of their paying customers.

just imagine it. "we heard about this guy with some flat packs that were designed by a bunch of random diy guys, so we got our hands on some. to our surprise they outperform everything that we have reviewed in the past 14 years for dynamics, clarity of dialog in movies, and imaging. why spend $10k when for a few hundred per kit and a little time putting them together, you can have better performance. i suppose the more expensive ones look a little prettier, but who has the lights on during a movie?" :-)~

Yes, you're cynical. tongue.gif

Shouldn't you still be in a self-imposed time-out from your foot-in-mouth comment a few pages back? rolleyes.gif
post #6075 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

call me cynical. it wouldn't be cool at all. they would give it a crap rating because erich isn't going to spend $20k/month on advertising in order to sell the speaks and the reviewers aren't about to rate a flat pack kit higher than any of their paying customers.
just imagine it. "we heard about this guy with some flat packs that were designed by a bunch of random diy guys, so we got our hands on some. to our surprise they outperform everything that we have reviewed in the past 14 years for dynamics, clarity of dialog in movies, and imaging. why spend $10k when for a few hundred per kit and a little time putting them together, you can have better performance. i suppose the more expensive ones look a little prettier, but who has the lights on during a movie?" :-)~
There are more reasonable avenues than Stereophile... wink.gif
post #6076 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

call me cynical. it wouldn't be cool at all. they would give it a crap rating because erich isn't going to spend $20k/month on advertising in order to sell the speaks and the reviewers aren't about to rate a flat pack kit higher than any of their paying customers.
just imagine it. "we heard about this guy with some flat packs that were designed by a bunch of random diy guys, so we got our hands on some. to our surprise they outperform everything that we have reviewed in the past 14 years for dynamics, clarity of dialog in movies, and imaging. why spend $10k when for a few hundred per kit and a little time putting them together, you can have better performance. i suppose the more expensive ones look a little prettier, but who has the lights on during a movie?" :-)~
reviewers are just going to continue with the same nonsense that they have since the beginning. describing speakers in terms of rythym, tunefullness, and pace. notice how this may be the first post in this entire thread that even mentions those three words, that is how you know that sh_t doesn't float here or something to that effect. :-)
social media is the marketing key for these.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

There are more reasonable avenues than Stereophile... wink.gif


yea there many site that would love to hear them. and who said they need to be rated as the new Black, nah , an oki review is more than enough, as long they like them,
its free pr.
whit my post above im not necessarily talking the big boys, still whats the harm, select 10-20 sites/magazines and mail them or call see if they bite.
and there's DIY magazines and Home theater blogs,/sites. right,so that's an option too.
post #6077 of 9857
Thread Starter 
"Shouldn't you still be in a self-imposed time-out from your foot-in-mouth comment a few pages back?"

self-imposed time-out just because i shared an alternative view? that's not really in the spirit mark...

like i said, something got lost in translation. let me try to explain it. you have a friend. you disagree with something that he is doing. you mention it. discuss it. debate it. your friend makes his choice. then, you support him. i just assumed (wrongly) that folks wouldn't question my support for erich by raising a point of disagreement along the way.

erich has made his choice, so now we move forward.

edit: and btw, after all this time, i consider you an online friend too.
Edited by LTD02 - 12/7/12 at 10:34pm
post #6078 of 9857
Thread Starter 
"There are more reasonable avenues than Stereophile..."

:-)

yeah, there are probably some avenues that might make some sense. i'm just not seeing it from the big rags.
post #6079 of 9857
Audioholics?

Am I allowed to say that?
post #6080 of 9857
I'm a little confused. Is the goal making money or not LOSING money. I think there's a big difference. Worrying about internet advertising and Stereophile or Audioholics sounds like trying to make money. Whereas streamlining the kits and options, pricing, Parts Express affiliation, etc. organizational stuff like that would help with not losing money. Given the small and finite DIY community, the latter I'm sure will be more successful than the former. Especially if highlighting the designers is a priority; only hardcore DIY'ers pay attention to who does the design work. Definitely not going to be a selling point to anyone else except those in the complete opposite retail $$$$ stratosphere.
post #6081 of 9857
Thread Starter 
"Now, there were some questions about measurements. Several are posted in this thread linked below."

hi jeff, the crossover results look great. very smooth transition.



given that you mention a 1300hz crossover point, i'm going to guess that the off-axis response looks great too, as that is right around where the directivity of the horn should meet the woof.

the fact that you didn't use a ton of smoothing in the posted measurements is appreciated. an honest +/-2 db from 40 to about 16/17khz doesn't happen by chance. good drivers, good network. to all involved, very nice work.

they might seem a little bright on axis, but with forward toe-in, they probably hit the mark for most folks.

we could debate how sharp the lower corner is, but i understand why you "stretched it".

the re appears to be right around 8ohms, so very amp friendly. 1w1m sensitivity should come in right around 95db 1w1m or so.

iirc, thx spec for the mains are for sealed that are down 3db at 80hz, so that when a second order high pass is mated to them it will meet the 4th order low pass both at -6db at the crossover point and sum for a flat frequency response.

then again, i've seen a lot of successful implementations that don't follow the standard. might make for an interesting option to get this design in some smaller sealed cabs erich, for those looking for what thx calls satellites. :-)

direct link to post with more measurements: http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?235069-So-who-s-going-to-build-Jeff-Bagby-s-Definimax-12-SEOS-Econowave&p=1874443#post1874443
Edited by LTD02 - 12/7/12 at 10:44pm
post #6082 of 9857
Erich,

Do you know off hand if you are still behind on orders for certain speakers? I ordered a pair of OSMTM's and sets of speaker terminals in the very beginning of November (payment cleared 11/5/12) and haven't heard anything yet. I even shot an email through the DIYSOUND site almost 2 weeks ago and haven't heard anything. I had hoped to get them in time to have them set up for thanksgiving visitors (obviously didn't work out), and although I have no such Christmas plans, I AM getting very worried. My order included contact info. Is there something I am missing?
post #6083 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinistre1 View Post

Erich,
Do you know off hand if you are still behind on orders for certain speakers? I ordered a pair of OSMTM's and sets of speaker terminals in the very beginning of November (payment cleared 11/5/12) and haven't heard anything yet. I even shot an email through the DIYSOUND site almost 2 weeks ago and haven't heard anything. I had hoped to get them in time to have them set up for thanksgiving visitors (obviously didn't work out), and although I have no such Christmas plans, I AM getting very worried. My order included contact info. Is there something I am missing?

On the home page I had a message saying that after October 22nd I wouldn't be taking orders or packaging anything for a few weeks so I could get all these new kits put together, photos taken, and work on the upcoming subwoofer boxes.

Then this past week I put up another notice saying that now that I've got some of the kits listed and things are getting caught up, I would be packing up any orders that did get made by mistake. wink.gif

The parts for the Overnight Sensation MTM's came in on Thursday. I packed most of them on Friday (including yours). I printed up all shipping labels but when I got to yours it was listed as 'unconfirmed' and 'unverified' through Paypal, so I sat it aside in order to contact you today and get it checked out. Because I don't know if I'm dealing with a forum member or a stranger, I always double check which will slow things down. It's mentioned in the 'Ordering and Delivery' section of the site.

Anyone that did order during the down has had their stuff packaged this week. If you sent me an email and I missed it, I'm sorry. I do try to answer as many as I can, but on occasion I have missed a few.
Edited by Erich H - 12/8/12 at 7:38am
post #6084 of 9857
Dogpile

Sorry for late jump on the "we're behind you, Erich" thread. Based on all of the responses, I don't think anyone is not behind Erich. This message is really for Erich.

Erich is a very unique person. He is incredibly talented and motivated. I've been around the block a few times and rarely have I come across someone like Erich in their "day job". Given this is his "hobby", makes this more astonishing. That alone wants me to see Erich succeed.

The second reason I want to see Erich succeed is that we all benefit. 6 months ago, there is no way I would have believed that I would have built my own speakers. I'm wrapping up the DIY portion of the "5" of a "5.1" system and then will tackle a DIY sub build. So, I will soon have a full DIY Sound Group system. No way I could have done it without Erich.

This unique forum group is also a large part of that success, and I think that is why Erich is so sensitive on getting feedback. Erich enabled this project, but the life blood came from all of the founders and contributors. My builds would have been miserable failures without the upfront designs from BWaslo and Tux, and the ongoing support and encouragement from many patient members (LTD, Coctostan, etc.).

So, this is a really cool thing happening. This is group project started on the great work by Zilch (very cool story in itself), fueled by this group, and enabled by Erich.

We've all been encouraging Erich to "make a profit" and turn this into a business. Beyond wanting to see Erich get his just rewards, we all will benefit with kits/components for future projects. This sensitive issue around crossover designs is key to Erich success. Per Jeff's posts, he reluctantly partnered with Erich and a concern he had was losing control over his designs. His designs are his IP and Erich will not be able to leverage Jeff's designs and future designers unless he can maintain control of the designs. I don't mean this as any slight to the other designers, but getting "professional" designers like Jeff will take the SEOS/DIY Sound Group project to higher and higher levels.

I completely understand the strain that this approach has against the DIY spirit. Tux and I struggled with what to do with design plans for my build thread of his kit. Speaking for Tux, he is a hobbyist and not really looking to make any money on his designs, but we are very sensitive and support the need to contain the "secret sauce" of the designs. In the end, we decided to show the plans in the spirit of building the support material for the final production kits. It was a tough decision.

Sorry for my ramblings and beating a dead horse, but I mainly want Erich to know we are behind you and want to see you succeed.

Java
post #6085 of 9857
Having been involved with DIY for quite a few years, I am completely fabbergasted to this day that Erich took on this endeavor to support DIY the way he did. I have been in on a number of "group buys" and rarely does it go down like this.

Erich invested a *lot* of money to make this happen. I think he needs to more than make it back. So I hope he pads it enough somehow, somewhere so he gets his just deserves.

I just wish for the life of god we had enough Canadian enthusiasts to get some flat packs up here. I don't have the space to make a bunch of boxes, which is going to be a PITA for me to complete these.
post #6086 of 9857
There is a UPS store a mile from the Lewiston bridge border crossing. It's a short drive and you can save a ton on shipping. I used to get most of my things shipped there.
post #6087 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post

Having been involved with DIY for quite a few years, I am completely fabbergasted to this day that Erich took on this endeavor to support DIY the way he did. I have been in on a number of "group buys" and rarely does it go down like this.
Erich invested a *lot* of money to make this happen. I think he needs to more than make it back. So I hope he pads it enough somehow, somewhere so he gets his just deserves.
I just wish for the life of god we had enough Canadian enthusiasts to get some flat packs up here. I don't have the space to make a bunch of boxes, which is going to be a PITA for me to complete these.

I'm actually going to do just that, have these shipped to buffalo, rent a car and drive down and pick them up at a PO BOX. Although I plan to build the flat packs myself since my friend has a shop. Maybe we can work out a deal...
post #6088 of 9857
Advertising

I know a thing or two about advertising and wanted to comment on DIY Sound Group advertising.

Social media (i.e., DIY Forums) is clearly the foundation for Erich's communication plan. We have great awareness and following in AVS, but need to start getting awareness and interest in the other forums. Jeff's threads in TechTalk is a great expansion. We need to look toward other forums. I'll work on a build thread in HomeTheaterShack to get a foothold there. If others are active in other forums, I encourage you to start threads or add SEOS/DIY Sound Group info to other threads.

From a cost perspective, organically growing awareness in the forums is great, but it is limiting. Think about the DIY community as a market. That market is limited and will cap DSG's success. The limit may be fine for Erich's business plan, but there is upside to expanding the universe.

There is a much larger universe of non-DIYers that DSG can tap, but Erich will need some form of advertising (organic social could work, too) to get awareness. I'm a classic example of a non-DIYer who became a DSG customer. I was not active in this forum, but stumbled across a post by Erich in the "speakers" forum. I was well down the path of buying a manufactured speaker when I came across a post by Erich. Then I started exploring DIY.

Advertising also gives a quick "shot in the arm" versus the slower build of the organic social marketing. Erich has to buy stuff by the pallet and that can tie up a lot of money. Advertising can drive higher volumes of potential buyers at a faster rate. But it does cost money. Some adv buys are better (i.e., cost effective) than others. In the end, it has to pay for itself.

A long way to say, in addition to our support of Erich in the various forums, I could foresee some banner ads in some select websites (i.e., AVS).

Just my 2 cents...
post #6089 of 9857
Erich,

I think you are waiting for my answers on order #100000651 (SEOS12, 2 cu' sealed flat-packs).
I just sent you a PM to clarify

Thanks Again!
Craig (cuzed2)
post #6090 of 9857
Erich, have you discussed getting a Seos project featured in the PE sales flyer? One using a lot of PE parts?
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