Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 204

Will all SEOS kits have an option to subtract the price of the DNA-360 and SEOS12 for the people who already have those from months ago?

+1

I wanted the design to be as full-range as possible. It was hard for me (philosophically) to design a large 12" two-way that only went to 70Hz, so my goal with this speaker was to hit 40Hz, which it does just fine. However, if built as a sealed speaker it would pretty much have the response you referenced.

My plots are all 1/48th octave, which is the same resolution as my crossover desgin software.

And the tweeter is pretty flat up to 18kHz where it takes its dive. I think this should work for almost anyone. During the voicing stage I played around with lowering the tweeter level a little bit, as I never set that entriely by measurement, but it always seemed to sound a bit dry. Its final level is what sounded the most balanced to my ear.

Jeff B.

Looks great to me JeffB....!

I personally got for max eff to 65-70hz, which makes hand off to subs easy enough, but I get other choices.

Color me red-faced! I was in such a rush to order after having read all of the good reviews and having worked enough OT to purchase the speakers that I really didn't pay attention to the no order disclaimer dates. I'm not sure why my paypal would have unconfirmed or unferified on it (unless that is specific to using the DIS site) as I use paypal alot. In either case, I am glad to know that I am on the road to "not making sawdust" while making speakers!!! Thanks again for all your efforts!!!

Just make sure to buy some sawdust to throw around your garage so you're family and friends think you built them from scratch.

Yes, I think the option is already on most of the kits using the DNA-360 and I'll put it in place for the other ones this evening. I'm still trying to tweak all the prices and make sure everything works out with the free shipping. The shipping box has to be pretty big, and might fall under dimensional weight, which throws things off a little. But I'll nail it all down very soon. I also need to recheck the price on the Deltalite because that was before the included baffle, so I know that price needs to be changed. With no ports adding to the price, lighter to ship, and a smaller shipping box, it might come in close to the same price as some others. Of course the Deltalite is a sealed design and smaller, so it's different enough.

I've had some questions about the difference between the Definimax and the Delta Pro 12A models. Basically, the Delta Pro gets the job done really well for cheaper and has a bit more mid bass kick. For theater use, or in a 2.1 system with a subwoofer, it would be perfect. The Definimax model is pretty much the same, except it can also be used full range when needed. The Definimax has a shorting ring which is suppose to make a cleaner sounding woofer. At volumes used in your house, I'm not really sure if it's noticeable or not until I hear them side by side. If I was making a choice, it would likely be based more on whether I wanted that extra mid bass punch or the possibility of running them full range or not.

I'm guessing the ports could be cut shorter in the Definimax to tune it a little higher like the Delta Pro, but that's up to the end user and changes the original design. I'm also not sure if it could be used in a sealed box. If by some chance they could be, then the boxes between the Deltalite, Definimax, and Delta Pro could be interchangeable.

One thing to keep in mind is that PE is probably not use to stocking many Definimax woofers. Today I tried to order 10 of those and 10 Delta Pro's. They had the Delta Pros, but only 6 of the Definimax. More will be available soon, or I'll just order direct from Eminence so we have enough. Ordering direct is a little more because I have to pay the shipping versus just driving to PE and picking them up. We'll see how it goes. I don't think there will be any problem at all.
Edited by Erich H - 12/8/12 at 5:30pm

I will run a sanding block across one of the kids building blocks in honor of the "Saw Dust Gods!". Lol.

ha... You know my old house I had a nice woodworking area, but not so in my new place. I have a 3 car garage and use one of the spaces since we only have 2 cars, but even when I put a tarp up, sawdust it gets everywhere. Now my wife wants me to build a work area on the property, but we live on a steep hill and have tons of trees around us.

Maybe I should clarify the differences. The Definimax woofer has a shorting ring in the motor and nonlinear distortion measures about 10dB lower than it does on the Delta Pro 12A and other similar woofers. It also has a longer Xmax at 6.4mm and a lower Fs.

My goal with the Definimax version was to design a system at a reasonably modest cost that could approach high-end audiophile performance, run full range with bass into the mid 30’s in most rooms, and have very linear frequency response. It’s lower distortion, longer Xmax, and lower Fs give it superior low bass performance. I believe it met my goals and is a speaker of fairly high-end caliber that approaches or matches the performance of some systems that cost many times the cost of this speaker.

Yes, there are some other Pro-sound woofers with more Xmax that also have shorting rings in the motor, but most of them cost quite a bit more, and I felt if the kit was too expensive very few would choose to own it. Also, I have worked with some of these woofers in the past and their bass performance can sometimes leave a bit to be desired. A lot of pro-sound drivers increase sensitivity at a sacrifice in bass performance by forcing Qes too low by simply increasing motor strength and lowering moving mass. Eminence did not do this with this woofer and as a result it is capable of some decent bass performance. I designed a very expensive commercial speaker that uses the JBL 2206H, and the Definimax compares very favorably to it in my opinion in practical terms, at a much cost . Here's the in-room response and the input impedance:



If you want a full-range, high sensitivity (95dB), higher impedance (8+ Ohms) two-way with waveguide, then I highly recommend the Definimax version, which I have called the “Zephyr”.

The version with the Delta Pro 12-A I have called the “Tempest”. It is a bit meaner by nature. It does not have the shorting ring in the motor, so its nonlinear distortion is higher. However, I can’t say that I can audibly recognize this by listening. It has a shorter Xmax, so it is more displacement limited in bass output, and it will not go as deep. But, it has almost 3dB more sensitivity. I used that extra sensitivity to favor the mid and upper bass in its response. The Tempest is technically not as flat, but to my ear sounds very satisfying, if not really downright enjoyable. I listen to a lot of jazz and classic rock and I have played this speaker full-range with no sub and was very happy. It’s a great rock speaker since a lot of rock music doesn’t go as deep as some people think it does, and this speaker reproduces it with an excellent sense of realism. It is a also a very economical speaker. Here's the in-room response of the Delta Pro 12A version:


In fact, these two versions offer the most bang for the buck of any speakers I have ever designed in a couple of ways. First, they are large and efficient, and fairly full-range and offer a lot of sound for the money. Second, in the world of high efficiency tube-friendly speakers, if these were finished in a beautiful cabinet with excellent craftsmanship then they would rival in every way systems costing many times their price.

Jeff B.

^^^Great post!!!^^^

Jeff, both of those look superb! As a tube amp lover, I am happy to see some real options for those like us.

Jeff - that's quite an intresting summary. Since the crossovers on their own will not be available to buy very soon I have a question about your approach to BSC. Did you use any.? Or is itsimple 2nd order electrically on the woofer?

It's not a real flat impedance, it's just not a low impedance. So, I hope that works out OK for tube applications.

Well, I don't really think about it like that when I am designing - I don't sit back and decide if I am going to put in baffle step compensation, rather I am targeting a flat frequency response. In this case, there is be some compensation for diffraction witin in the crossover, but not for a step, because one does not develop in the raw frequency response. This is likely due to the size of the baffle, the lower nature of a step from that baffle, and the reiforcement from the room boundaries combining. At any rate, there is some response shaping in the crososver. The filter is not a simple second order filter.

Another question Jeff, Do you think the Delta Pro 12A and the Definimax would work well in a small sealed enclosure (1cu ft) for home theater? Modeled in Winisd it shows -3db at around 100hz.

Edited by Mrkazador - 12/9/12 at 12:25pm

Probably fine for lightbulbs. Probably not great for Class D though.

Depends on the class D. UcD or Icepower have very low output impedance. Ncore has lower impedance than about anything. The T,-Amps and TI chip amps, have trouble with speaker impedance but only at higher frequencies.

Erich,

From our messaging yesterday;
You have a PM waiting for you (some confirming details and questions)..

Thanks!

yeah I did look at the impedance and phase. Probably not a SET amp speaker, but a normal PP medium output tube amp should do well and won't need lots of feedback.

The bumps above 500Hz could easily be flattened with some series resonant sections at the main terminals if you needed it flat. Better to just use a decent amp though.

+1. That hypex stuff is very nice. I missed out on the blowout prices on the UCD180HG with HxR modules. 3X NC400's for the front would suit me just fine.

Not sure if you can fit all of this in a one cubic foot box, but if you do the tonal balance will be changed with the absense of the bass below 100Hz. If you have subs and plan on using them to fil in below this, then theoretically it should work out for you.

Also if anyone is curious, a link to this newbie's SEOS (upgrade) projects
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1440063/diy-seos-for-ht-upgrade

First project is a Big Malcolm center channel.
4 Auru NS6's under a SEOS 12 (a big Thanks to BWaslo for his sharing of Malcolm and additional inputs & suggestions!
Here is a quick teaser photo of progress to date


I was also asked for the baffle dimensions:
32"wide x 13-3/8" high, the box will be 10.5" deep (exterior dimension)

Here's a few project pics for the curious or interested.

Here's the Definimax 4012HO driver. It's a pretty beefy thing:


Here's the SEOS waveguide I used:




Here's the two drivers from the side so you can see how they align. They are not actually time aligned though, the woofer's acoustic center is actually in front of the tweeter's and rests about where the cone attaches to the voice coil former.


The cabient Erich sent me is built like a tank! If this is representative of the flat packs for this speaker, then they are worth the cost. These are heavy, and very well-braced, with perfectly routed baffles.



Finally, here's a shot of the drviers being measured. They're gated in my room. Outside would have been better, but nature wasn't cooperating at the time:

Here's a couple more measurements:

Here's the response of the Denovo DNA-360 mounted in the SEOS 12 Waveguide. This is really an exceptional starting point for any compression driver combo (ignore the SPL, it is arbitrary):


Here's the distortion signature for the DNA-360 - mostly second order, odd order is quite low. This is really nice too. Erich did a great job procurring this driver:



Here's the same for the Definimax 4012HO:



My compliments to Bill on the OmniMIc. I am as thankful for it and other people are for PCD. It is so much more fun than my old measurement rig.

Jeff B.

Are the kits with Mr. Bagby's designs available to buy with deleting the horns and compression drivers? I have already purchased them with the original preorder. I really do not need the baffle either but have no problem tossing it to simpilfy things.

i believe Erich is working on it.

I have to agree with this being overwhelming. If someone is in the market, even a diy guy, the amount of information is overwhelming and trying to read through this thread and others to find information is not helping people make decisions.

I hope EricH does raise prices to compensate for his work. I don't think he realizes most people don't know the actual price of these components, so raising 10-20% isn't going to effect a buying decision.

I do highly recommend a guide. Perhaps something like recommendations for different situations, room size, placement, volume, listening habits, price, etc.
Maybe comments from the designers. Your own listening impressions. And a Q&A only at your site, instead of answering questions in different forums all over the place.

For instance I want 3 speakers up front in a 19x13 room for mostly music and tv. But I don't want a 15" wide x 15" deep speaker. So I'm assuming something like the OSMTM would fit the bill but I'm not sure. So a guide would be helpful. BTW I would order the OSMTM right now if anyone thinks its good for a 3 speaker front stage for music.

Dustin, this thread is mostly about the larger waveguide speakers. They're just now being finished up and the designers are currently explaining the designs. Even though there are a lot of choices, it's broken down into woofer size you might want, and then how much you want to spend for a speaker. Any of the designs will be great for the budget you have. There's no reason to worry whether one is better than the next model if the next model is twice the price. They're all very good for the price range you're hoping to stay in......or they wouldn't be listed. There are 2-3 designs that were worked on, but not listed. One was a smaller model, one was with a 10" B&C. They didn't bring enough to the table to justify the price, so they weren't done. If the speaker is listed it's a very nice speaker. The low price is just a plus when compared to commercial offerings.

So in the end, there might be 20 designs for the waveguide speakers, but only three per woofer size to give you a low, mid, and high priced option. I don't think it makes sense to only put up the highest priced model because many might not want to spend that much per speaker.

The other speakers your talking about normally have links to the designers page, or a link to a thread that discussed more about them. But even with that, most of the decision will have to be based on your own needs or own speaker style.

If you wanted some smaller speakers for a bigger room, you'd want to look at the 8" models listed on the site. I just got the photo uploaded for the 8" B&C, but still working on prices. The 8" Celestion has been up for quite a while.
Edited by Erich H - 12/10/12 at 8:33am