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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 212

post #6331 of 7506
12/26/12 at 11:57am
The mitered ply will be fine. Don't think in terms of "strength", but in terms of vibration. The box is only holding air - when did you ever see a box pop open on a wood seam from speaker pressure?

You need to avoid the panels vibrating at mid or low frequency (the horn won't cause vibration in the box). This is best done by lots of bracing, and not just between opposite surfaces. I like window braces in a matrix, but other schemes can work too. Another way is thick rigid panels, but I'd rather use the extra wood and weight as bracing than as thick walls.
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post #6332 of 7506
12/26/12 at 4:40pm
Thanks! Mitered corners it is. Will need to experiment with the black finish. I can wait on the MAL kit. Getting excited about getting out all the old stereo stuff (NAD 1020, two Hafler 220s).
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post #6333 of 7506
12/26/12 at 7:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

I round over all my edges, I like the way it looks, and it seems to be less likely to show any dings.


Me too. I rounded all the edges on my speakers/subs. I think they look nice. tongue.gif
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post #6334 of 7506
12/26/12 at 10:06pm
I need some naming help to simplify all of the waveguide speakers. Putting them in groups based on woofer size isn't going to work out very well. It looks confusing and I'm getting a good number of emails asking why one model is better than the next.

So I've decided to make 3 "series" based on price, like most other speaker companies do. Then I can just explain the entire series as a group to cut down on the questions.

The Karma Series will be for the lowest priced models.

The Fusion Series will be for the most expensive.

I need a name for the mid priced series. Any ideas? I asked my family during Christmas and one name that people seemed to like was "Tropa Series". But I'm not 100% sold on that yet, but it's not horrible. I could use Fusion for the mid priced if needed, and then come up with the top tier name.

The name should probably be very simple to say and easy to spell, and just a couple syllables. Reference, Elite, Platinum, etc have all been played out too much. But my brain has turned to mush trying to come up with something.

If you've got an idea, let's hear it. biggrin.gif
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post #6335 of 7506
12/26/12 at 10:14pm
I feel like Fusion would make a better name for the mid-range. Kind of like a fusion of low price and high performance (not that all of the designs aren't a good value).
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post #6336 of 7506
12/26/12 at 10:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott C. View Post

I feel like Fusion would make a better name for the mid-range. Kind of like a fusion of low price and high performance (not that all of the designs aren't a good value).


That's actually how I figured it at first. But I couldn't figure out a decent name for the more expensive series, so moved it. I can always change things around as long as something can be figured out fairly soon. Obviously I won't be able to change things a few weeks afterwards. biggrin.gif

This is one thing that should save a good deal of time in the long run. There are lots of people that don't follow this thread as close as some of us, so it would certainly cut down on the questions and confusing and make things easier.

I just can't seem to come up with that 3rd series name.
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post #6337 of 7506
12/26/12 at 10:42pm
I like Fusion for the mid line better. Maybe Pinnacle, Grand, or Prime/Primo for the high line. Just tossing around some ideas. smile.gif

Chris
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post #6338 of 7506
12/26/12 at 10:57pm
I do like those name of course, and even wrote down Pinnacle a few days ago. But I'm thinking those fall under the same idea as 'reference', 'elite, 'platinum' type words that other companies normally use for their more expensive models.
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post #6339 of 7506
12/27/12 at 6:09am
If you want to stick with the Kharma theme...mid priced could be Dharma and expensive Nirvanna.
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post #6340 of 7506
12/27/12 at 6:23am
I like Prime, Primo or Nirvana for high end. I think having Dharma for mid would still be confusing. Fusion is great for mid. Just my opinion rolleyes.gif
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post #6341 of 7506
12/27/12 at 6:29am
Is the problem confusion on what is the best and what is the difference between the models?

If so, as much as it is played out, wouldn't using a term that most folks would attribute as being top of the line (because so many other manufacturers use the same term) make it less confusing for potential customers that don't come to this thread?

As much as it would be cool to be different, in this case, doing something that is easily recognized would likely be the better choice, imo.... so reference, elite, king, blah blah should be considered over some other term that may not convey as well....

plus put longer descriptions on each model to describe how it sounds, its design goals and how it compares to the other models in the lineup....
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post #6342 of 7506
12/27/12 at 6:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by amt View Post

The screen would be fixed. This is a dedicated theater room, 17 x 14 x 8 feet. Screen is on the 14 foot wall, and a single row of seating about 2/3 way back. Right now I have a "standard" 120 inch diagonal screen with center channel below and L & R on the sides. I'd really like to get the vocals to be "in" the screen and not below. I have not upgraded speakers in like 15 years, so I think it's time! If I go with acoustic screen (a woven screen), I'd like to not reduce the useable length of the room by more than 8-10 inches. That makes for a very shallow speaker box. I can, however, go way tall and wide on the boxes if necessary to get proper volume. I just thought a pair of 8's would be good for a shallow speaker depth.
If anyone has any experiences to share with SEOS project mounted on-wall and/or used with a woven screen, please share, thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

PM member AV Science Sales 5. He built the SEOS12/DNA-360/TD12M and uses an AT screen. Here:http://www.avsforum.com/t/1433151/my-td12m-seos-12-build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

The 10" deltas use a 10.75"deep box but I think you need some space between the screen and speaker. I bet you could make a shallow box but make it taller to get the same volume.

With the woven screens, you do not need much space between the speaker baffle and the screen. An inch or two is plenty. Since you heavily toe in wave guide designs like this, you can't get the speaker baffle too close to the screen when using a woven screen. Obviously different rules apply if using a microperf screen.
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post #6343 of 7506
12/27/12 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

You might need to find a better selection of movies smile.gif
Is the finish choice on the SEOS important with an AT screen ? Will the glossy finish be a problem with an AT ?

I used flat black. I almost hated to paint the nice solid aluminum phase plugs on the TD12M's. smile.gif
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post #6344 of 7506
12/27/12 at 6:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

That's actually how I figured it at first. But I couldn't figure out a decent name for the more expensive series, so moved it. I can always change things around as long as something can be figured out fairly soon. Obviously I won't be able to change things a few weeks afterwards. biggrin.gif
This is one thing that should save a good deal of time in the long run. There are lots of people that don't follow this thread as close as some of us, so it would certainly cut down on the questions and confusing and make things easier.
I just can't seem to come up with that 3rd series name.

Erich,

I haven't been keeping up with this thread like I should, so you may have answered this. Shouldn't you let the designers name their own designs? I understand your desire to categorize the designs by price/performance, but that takes away from the individuality of the designers.

Your advantage is that you have a growing group of diverse designers. I feel that by putting their designs under broad labels, you take away from the individuality.

I believe each designer has their own approach (price/value, high end music, etc.) that should stand by itself and then they can categorize their designs.

Make sense?

Java
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post #6345 of 7506
12/27/12 at 7:11am
How about:

Karma -> Fusion -> Ambrosia
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post #6346 of 7506
12/27/12 at 9:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Erich,
I haven't been keeping up with this thread like I should, so you may have answered this. Shouldn't you let the designers name their own designs? I understand your desire to categorize the designs by price/performance, but that takes away from the individuality of the designers.
Your advantage is that you have a growing group of diverse designers. I feel that by putting their designs under broad labels, you take away from the individuality.
I believe each designer has their own approach (price/value, high end music, etc.) that should stand by itself and then they can categorize their designs.
Make sense?
Java

I agree, but we've overlooked some obvious things......many people coming to the current site don't know who the designers are, or what makes their speaker different than another designers. And it's not a good idea to divide these up based solely on the designer for this website.


The designers can name their designs, but some have names, others don't. Plus we're going to have literally 16 - 20 designs, all with different names, all different prices, all different woofers. Then again some prices are nearly identical, with just different woofers, same everything else. That will always lead to questions and confusion. It's simply too much for the average person to take in and remember. When someone says they ordered the Minion and they liked it, it's going to be difficult to remember and find when looking at that many designs. Plus can you tell what the Minion even is? And the first question a person will ask once they find it: "Erich is the Minion better than the MTG-08, or did a good designer just chose a different priced woofer?"

There's simply no way to describe every speaker separately using fancy terms when there are literally 20 to pick from. It's like going to the store to get a gallon of milk. 2%, skim, whole, and maybe one more. No problem, it's grab and go. But once there's 1%, 2%, 4%, 4.5%, 5%, 7%, 9%, 9.75%, 10% with a twist, 12%, it's just information overload. You can't explain why a model using the 12" Faital Pro is different than a model using a 12" Deltalite when everything else is identical and the prices are nearly the same.

Karma-8
Karma-10
Karma-12
Karma-15

Fusion-8
Fusion-10
Fusion-12 "Tempest"
Fusion-15 "Sentinel"

Prime-8 "Minion"
Prime-10
Prime-12 "Zephyr"
Prime-15

Other Models



"What model did you buy"

"I bought the Karma-10"

I know it's a 10" woofer, and I can see that it's in the first series very quickly when I go to the site. If I want to know what's a possible upgrade, it's very simple......look at the next series.

Now all that's needed is to describe what puts a speaker in the each series. If the designer wants to add some extra info, obviously they can.

Imagine going to a Chevy dealership and the Buicks, GMC's, and Cadillacs were all mixed in with the regular Chevy's with no different series names. The salesmen would go nuts trying to explain everything. biggrin.gif
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post #6347 of 7506
12/27/12 at 9:32am
Sorry for OT but:
Erich, I still haven't heard anything from you, been trying to reach you for a month. Also left you a PM here some time ago.
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post #6348 of 7506
12/27/12 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikC View Post

Sorry for OT but:
Erich, I still haven't heard anything from you, been trying to reach you for a month. Also left you a PM here some time ago.

Yes, I got your PM from last week on Dec 20th and they are packed and ready to go. I took a break over Christmas on the 24th and 25th, and then I had to do snow removal yesterday on the 26th.

Today I am trying to find things that Parts Express is currently out of. Inductors, resistors, etc. I'm also packing things up as fast as I can, but I do understand that it's never fast enough.
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post #6349 of 7506
12/27/12 at 10:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Yes, I got your PM from last week on Dec 20th and they are packed and ready to go. I took a break over Christmas on the 24th and 25th, and then I had to do snow removal yesterday on the 26th.
Today I am trying to find things that Parts Express is currently out of. Inductors, resistors, etc. I'm also packing things up as fast as I can, but I do understand that it's never fast enough.

Thanks for the update. Again, I'm not in a hurry at all, I just get a little paranoid when I don't hear back from you.

Hope you had a nice and peaceful Christmas celebration.
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post #6350 of 7506
12/27/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

There's simply no way to describe every speaker separately using fancy terms when there are literally 20 to pick from.

Names are nice but a long model or part number can tell you a lot.

12SM-D360-E2512-F20P

(that would be 12" SEOS matte finish, Denovo 360 driver, 12" eminence delatlite II 2512 woofer, in a 2.0 cubic foot ported flat pack)

You might consider using both to preserve your sanity when someone discusses a variant of a kit.
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post #6351 of 7506
12/27/12 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

Names are nice but a long model or part number can tell you a lot.

12SM-D360-E2512-F20P
(that would be 12" SEOS matte finish, Denovo 360 driver, 12" eminence delatlite II 2512 woofer, in a 2.0 cubic foot ported flat pack)
You might consider using both to preserve your sanity when someone discusses a variant of a kit.

12SM-D360-E2512-F20P doesn't quite roll off the tongue however.
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post #6352 of 7506
12/27/12 at 1:41pm
Erich,

IMHO trying to split up your kits into different tiers that somehow correspond with "good", "better", "more better", etc. just adds another needless level of abstraction and confusion.

Trust me, I understand the desire for organization and some level of tidiness to all this, and that might be possible, but I truly believe it will only add to your customers' confusion. Someone needs to bite the bullet and attempt to quantify the various strengths all these designs bring to the table - but most of it really amounts to a few simple things, things that the more experienced folks here in the forum just "know" or can figure out based on available information.

People want to know what their money buys going to a kit that commands a more premium price? Well, it's pretty much:

- plays louder
- plays as loud with less distortion
- offers more bass extension
- has a smoother FR, either due to driver or crossover design/complexity

Yeah? And further, one can make a few generalizations based on woofer brands, for example:

- Eminence baseline, industry workhorse, kicks like a mule in the right box, tough as nails and great sound in the hands of the right crossover designer
- Acoustic Elegance, smoothest pro-style woofers in the business, ungodly efficiency with finesse, rare blend of pro and hi-fi sensibilities
- JBL, used in pro sound and super-high-end theater systems, for when you gotta have "that" old-school paper sound, yadda yadda etc.

Toss in some subjective impressions where possible, and you'd be gold. For a while there were a few extra words about Jeff Bagby's Tempest that mentioned "kick in the chest" midbass, and that's a good example of what people will eat up IMHO.

Sample writeup for a fictional model:

The SEOS 12 / Eminence Zeta12Pro kicks things up a notch with shorting rings in the woofer for better distortion numbers, while still offering 95 db sensitivity and 300 real watts of power handling. This is a sealed design with a cabinet sized to roll off naturally at 80 hz - set your speakers to "small" with a standard 80 hz cutoff and add as much sub as you can afford for a shockingly loud THX-style home theater.

That's how I'd approach it anyway.
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post #6353 of 7506
12/27/12 at 3:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I agree, but we've overlooked some obvious things......many people coming to the current site don't know who the designers are, or what makes their speaker different than another designers. And it's not a good idea to divide these up based solely on the designer for this website.
The designers can name their designs, but some have names, others don't. Plus we're going to have literally 16 - 20 designs, all with different names, all different prices, all different woofers. Then again some prices are nearly identical, with just different woofers, same everything else. That will always lead to questions and confusion. It's simply too much for the average person to take in and remember. When someone says they ordered the Minion and they liked it, it's going to be difficult to remember and find when looking at that many designs. Plus can you tell what the Minion even is? And the first question a person will ask once they find it: "Erich is the Minion better than the MTG-08, or did a good designer just chose a different priced woofer?"
There's simply no way to describe every speaker separately using fancy terms when there are literally 20 to pick from. It's like going to the store to get a gallon of milk. 2%, skim, whole, and maybe one more. No problem, it's grab and go. But once there's 1%, 2%, 4%, 4.5%, 5%, 7%, 9%, 9.75%, 10% with a twist, 12%, it's just information overload. You can't explain why a model using the 12" Faital Pro is different than a model using a 12" Deltalite when everything else is identical and the prices are nearly the same.
Karma-8
Karma-10
Karma-12
Karma-15
Fusion-8
Fusion-10
Fusion-12 "Tempest"
Fusion-15 "Sentinel"
Prime-8 "Minion"
Prime-10
Prime-12 "Zephyr"
Prime-15
Other Models
"What model did you buy"
"I bought the Karma-10"
I know it's a 10" woofer, and I can see that it's in the first series very quickly when I go to the site. If I want to know what's a possible upgrade, it's very simple......look at the next series.
Now all that's needed is to describe what puts a speaker in the each series. If the designer wants to add some extra info, obviously they can.
Imagine going to a Chevy dealership and the Buicks, GMC's, and Cadillacs were all mixed in with the regular Chevy's with no different series names. The salesmen would go nuts trying to explain everything. biggrin.gif

Yep. I understand your point. In my mind, your designers are like the auto brands you mentioned. Like the Corvette is under the Chevy brand, the XX is under the BWaslo brand. Just like the auto brands have their own personalities and differences, your speaker brands do too. I may be holding on too tight to the concept, but I think one of your unique differences (in addition to your ingenuity, price point, etc.) is the diverse range of offerings your designers bring. No offense to Wayne, but he is the only designer at PI. Axiom on has Ian. Etc.
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post #6354 of 7506
12/27/12 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

Erich,
IMHO trying to split up your kits into different tiers that somehow correspond with "good", "better", "more better", etc. just adds another needless level of abstraction and confusion.
Trust me, I understand the desire for organization and some level of tidiness to all this, and that might be possible, but I truly believe it will only add to your customers' confusion. Someone needs to bite the bullet and attempt to quantify the various strengths all these designs bring to the table - but most of it really amounts to a few simple things, things that the more experienced folks here in the forum just "know" or can figure out based on available information.
People want to know what their money buys going to a kit that commands a more premium price? Well, it's pretty much:
- plays louder
- plays as loud with less distortion
- offers more bass extension
- has a smoother FR, either due to driver or crossover design/complexity
Yeah? And further, one can make a few generalizations based on woofer brands, for example:
- Eminence baseline, industry workhorse, kicks like a mule in the right box, tough as nails and great sound in the hands of the right crossover designer
- Acoustic Elegance, smoothest pro-style woofers in the business, ungodly efficiency with finesse, rare blend of pro and hi-fi sensibilities
- JBL, used in pro sound and super-high-end theater systems, for when you gotta have "that" old-school paper sound, yadda yadda etc.
Toss in some subjective impressions where possible, and you'd be gold. For a while there were a few extra words about Jeff Bagby's Tempest that mentioned "kick in the chest" midbass, and that's a good example of what people will eat up IMHO.
Sample writeup for a fictional model:
The SEOS 12 / Eminence Zeta12Pro kicks things up a notch with shorting rings in the woofer for better distortion numbers, while still offering 95 db sensitivity and 300 real watts of power handling. This is a sealed design with a cabinet sized to roll off naturally at 80 hz - set your speakers to "small" with a standard 80 hz cutoff and add as much sub as you can afford for a shockingly loud THX-style home theater.
That's how I'd approach it anyway.

Agreed. The components and specs should speak to the price/performance.

By the way, Erich, I think you found your copy writer. biggrin.gif
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post #6355 of 7506
12/27/12 at 4:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Java View Post

Like the Corvette is under the Chevy brand, the XX is under the BWaslo brand. Just like the auto brands have their own personalities and differences, your speaker brands do too.

It would be great if each designer had their own 'series'. But in this situation no one designer is sticking with a certain pricing structure or brand of woofers.

The designers still get credit for their work on the speakers page and they can name each speaker if they want. Now If I was running this like a company, then yes it would be very simple. Pick the designer people think is best and price ALL of his work for the Elite Series regardless of the actual component costs. But obviously that's not what's going to happen.

I'm just trying to simplify it for people that don't follow these things as close as others do. We can't clump 20 designs together with all different names or woofer brands and hope the average Joe can decide. The average Joe would then send an email asking me to explain why the Faital Pro woofer would cost him $40 more than the Eminence, but the end speaker price is the same...."Does this mean that the Eminence is a better speaker because the crossover components must cost more?" No one asked that question, just an example. biggrin.gif

Virtually every company I can think of would divide things into categories, sort of based on price. Granted that some of these mid priced designs could be better than the high cost series simply because JBL prices their woofer twice as much without twice the performance. But I'm just not sure how else to do this so the general public isn't lost.



Lately I'm getting a lot more emails. I try to answer as many as I can, but it's beginning to cause back ups, so I'm hoping to get some of that solved. No matter what I write on the website's home page, most people have no idea that this isn't some larger company with 10+ employees. The past couple weeks really bothered me because there were people that ordered Overnight Sensations and other small kits about 3-4 days before Christmas. Some were highly upset that they did not receive them for their husband, son, friend, etc. One person actually said I ruined their son's Christmas. Whether it was true or not, it really stunk to get that email. rolleyes.gif
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post #6356 of 7506
12/27/12 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsloms View Post

12SM-D360-E2512-F20P doesn't quite roll off the tongue however.

Now that is an understatement. Horrible marketing, but great for knowing what it is you are about to order (or ship). Of course you can give it a flashy name...Grand Wazoo 12 hasn't been taken yet.

A useful gadget for comparison/descriptions would be to work up a matrix of the various models and the major components and performance specs. This would help answer a lot of the "what is the difference between" questions. In addition to the complete kits, it would be possible to include designs in development and designs that remain in the rooted in the deep DIY realm (meaning you are on your own to supply a crossover, woofer, whatever).
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post #6357 of 7506
12/27/12 at 7:08pm
That I find myself thinking about making such a matrix spreadsheet for myself suggests (to me) this would be helpful. Matrix and more description of what each design offers.

Also I am unsure how to order the speaker kit but with a a flat pack?
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post #6358 of 7506
12/27/12 at 7:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

That I find myself thinking about making such a matrix spreadsheet for myself suggests (to me) this would be helpful. Matrix and more description of what each design offers.
Also I am unsure how to order the speaker kit but with a a flat pack?

I was thinking of a matrix comparison. Speaker name header of the column with the rows > drivers > waveguide > designer > price > F3 > db/w > size of enclosure > rough xo freq > design goals #1, #2, #3, etc.... That would give a quick way of looking up which designs would need more investigating, or force the questions to ask forum members.
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post #6359 of 7506
12/27/12 at 7:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

That I find myself thinking about making such a matrix spreadsheet for myself suggests (to me) this would be helpful. Matrix and more description of what each design offers.
Also I am unsure how to order the speaker kit but with a a flat pack?

The flat packs should be ready in about a week. I have most of them, but the CNC company had an issue so I'm waiting on the rest. Don't worry, they'll be available.

But the flat packs will be shipped in their own box and not included in the free shipping like the kit because some people will be building their own. It was also difficult trying to calculate how much extra to add to the kit in order to ship those heavier flat packs.
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post #6360 of 7506
12/27/12 at 8:02pm
Great thanks!
Oh, and I thought it might also be helpful to link from each product page to an "official" forum thread. That's where the good meaty info is that I bet would answer some people's questions.
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