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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 214

post #6391 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by nater1 View Post

First, happy New Years to all of you... I have been following the progress of this project for several months across several of the forums that this project has been discussed on, and i think now that the kits are listed, and the flat packs are available, i am ready to make the jump and start outfitting my media room with some seos based speakers.
To that end, i wanted to reach out and get some advice on the sentinel vs the zephyr. My usage is 50/50 music (a wide range of music, blues mostly). My room is pretty small at 20x14 feet. Once the budget recovers and the bonus shows up, the plan is to build two of the dayton 18" subs to cover the low end. I am drawn to the zephyr due to (a perhaps unfounded) belief that they would perhaps be a bit better for my music, while not giving up much for my movie watching. All of the recent talk about the sentinel has me second guessing my choice. I cant be the only one that is deciding between these two, as they are priced within a few dollars of each other. What am i missing?
Thank you in advance for your advice to a total speaker building noob.


The Zephyr is only better than the Tempest for music if you aren't using subwoofers. With a 14' x 20' room, the 12" models will easily be enough. That's about as big as my living room and I can promise you, the 12" models will fill that with no problem at all.
post #6392 of 9844
Well, I see that my Zephyr 12 order has shipped! Thanks, Erich.

I've been following this thread since the summer, so I'm pretty excited to get started. I have a couple of build questions.

First, I also ordered the 40" tall baffles, because I'd really like to avoid stands (I'll use the original baffles for another set of speakers at some point). If possible, I'd like to shrink the depth on the speakers while using the additional height to keep the box volume the same. I'm wondering how much space I need behind the ports and the woofer to not affect their operation.

Next, How much does the bracing affects the volume. In Jeff B.'s test design, it's not clear how much volume is used by the bracing, and I don't have a good feel for how sensitive the design is. Any guidance is appreciated.

Finally, for I see a lot of discussion on the different designs, and I was second-guessing myself after ordering, but I've returned to my original choice of the Zephyr for a couple of reasons.

First, I'm trying to simplify things. Even though I have a good subwoofer, I wouldn't mind getting rid of it. It's a heavy beast and takes up a lot of floor space. I want to put in a good stereo amp and put my Crown SL-2 preamp back into service, and I don't want to deal with a crossover. Since I'm using this system for music-only, it probably will go low enough as is - this won't be the case with the Tempest.

Second, I really like the lower distortion of the Zephyr. Can I hear it? Probably not, but it's a philosophical thing - I'm an engineer rolleyes.gif. If I want the bass boost ( and sometimes I do), my Crown preamp has a bass control, and I'm not afraid to use it.

Finally, how far wrong can I go? If I get the bug in a few years, I can change out everything. In the meantime, it will sound great!

I'm really looking to putting this together over the next couple of months.

Thanks,
John
post #6393 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsgjsg View Post

Well, I see that my Zephyr 12 order has shipped! Thanks, Erich.
I've been following this thread since the summer, so I'm pretty excited to get started. I have a couple of build questions.
Thanks,
John

Some of this took a bit longer to finalize than I thought. The CNC company had some issues that put things back a couple weeks and then Parts Express was out of some inductors that were needed for a good number of the kits. And the first shipping boxes I ordered just didn't seem good enough to hold the 55 - 60lbs worth of stuff. I'm in the process of getting everything caught back up and I think most orders will be done by the end of the week. There was a large number of orders made in the past week or so. I took a few days off for Christmas, so there's a lot get get done right now. biggrin.gif Like 25 - 30 orders?

There's another small box shipping out tomorrow for your Zephyr kits with the CD's and crossover parts. I went to PE yesterday and picked up all the remaining inductors. I was told they were just delivered and they had to go through the pallet to find the correct ones.

I'll check how shallow you can make the tall box you're talking about. I'd probably shoot for 3" behind the woofer. The bracing doesn't take up much volume. Whatever you use compared to the flat packs probably won't be enough difference to matter at all.
post #6394 of 9844
Happy new year all you SEOS peeps! Enjoying mine...
post #6395 of 9844
OK I did it! ordered 2 Tempests and a Malcolm baffle. Have questions about the Malcolm though.
I've got the parts list and schematic from post 1. Is that still correct info?
I haven't found a build thread, is there one?
After reading a little more I may need to add a little EQ or ? because it won't be sitting back against a wall but it will be in the wall with it's front flush to the wall. I have a dedicated HT with the screen on a false wall built out about 30" from the basement wall. I currently have the center and sub under the screen and both are "built in"- that is flush to the screen with a cloth grill over the opening. That opening is about 24 tall and 30 wide. So, would it be OK to move the ports to the front of the cabinet? maybe either side of the SEOS?
And finally (for now wink.gif) are there any other centers in the works or a Mal #3 that I should wait on?. So far I've only got $10 invested in a baffle so that's no big deal.
Thanks, GZ
post #6396 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The Zephyr is only better than the Tempest for music if you aren't using subwoofers. With a 14' x 20' room, the 12" models will easily be enough. That's about as big as my living room and I can promise you, the 12" models will fill that with no problem at all.

Awesome to hear that the 12" models will work for me... I have (for now) decided on the zephyrs... As i want the kits with flatpacks, am i better off ordering the kits and flatpacks together when they are avalible, or should i order the kits now so i can get the crossovers together etc.

Thank you for the quick reply!
post #6397 of 9844
Mounted flush in the wall will be fine, Malcom was meant to be used up flush with the top or bottom of an LCD, a wall is even better (a little more full bass). Ports on the front would be ok, but keep them as far from the waveguide as you can to avoid reflections on the sides.

There's also a "Big Mal" design that evolved from the "Daniel" design, same principle as Malcolm but a lot bigger if you have space for it -- and ironically, much cheaper to build. Member cuzed has built one recently and reports good results. It won't go lower but will go louder, has a simpler crossover and a near linear-phase response, and will maintain horizontal directivity even lower in frequency -- so the articulation should be stellar. Not so small though.
Edited by bwaslo - 1/1/13 at 1:59pm
post #6398 of 9844
Thanks for the info. After talking to Eric, I'm going to rethink the center and sub located in the 24 X 30 opening so that leaves room for the big Mal. I'll then need to make "sub" stands for the tempests (or maybe incorporate the subs in the cabinets so it looks like a healthy sized floorstander. Would love those Subs to be tapped horns but the size would get kind of crazy. Ah decisions, decisions....
GZ
post #6399 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by nater1 View Post

Awesome to hear that the 12" models will work for me... I have (for now) decided on the zephyrs... As i want the kits with flatpacks, am i better off ordering the kits and flatpacks together when they are avalible, or should i order the kits now so i can get the crossovers together etc.
Thank you for the quick reply!

The flat packs will ship separate either way, so it doesn't really matter how you do it. These are too heavy to ship 1 complete speaker kit in one box. I think the Definimax woofer weighs about 30lbs, the flat pack probably 40, then the waveguide, compression driver, and crossover parts are probably another 10. So 80lbs each. No way would I ship that much weight in a single cardboard box. biggrin.gif
post #6400 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by GWZ View Post

Thanks Eric, I'll price out the original MAL and make a decision. I'm space limited for center so the 4" wofs are perfect. May need to rethink some things in the HT. As far as Tempest vs Zephyr all I can say is Ahhhhhhh! Had myself convinced to go with the Tempest (I'm mostly a classic rock kind of guy and that mid bass kick sounded like just the ticket!). Gotta have a sub anyway for the HT so I may still go with the Tempest and if I need the sub for rock and roll I'll just add it.
Would also like to say thanks for all you are doing for the cause!
Gunther

Although the Zephyr measures flatter, more extended, and with lower midband distortion, playing them head to head I still tend to prefer the Tempest. It gives me more of that live rock and roll feel. It has a little more upper bass to its balance and that it probably appealing to the rocker in me.

Jeff
post #6401 of 9844

SEOS Speaker Kit Product Matrix

Since I'd already started a grid of SEOS speaker kits I was considering, I thought I'd keep adding to it the rest (ones that are overkill or too expensive smile.gif for me) and share the spreadsheet.

 

Google Drive spreadsheet of SEOS Waveguide Speaker Kits Comparison Matrix.

 

It has conditional formatting marking the missing items in yellow, where we're missing a couple woofer specs, speaker sensitivity or crossover, or the cost of the DNA-205 (not that the latter really matters).

 

I bolded items I thought might be of interest as an "upgrade" over the prior version, but I know some of that is debateable. I can remove the bolding if it just confuses/clutters.

 

I hope this might help people in the meantime until there's a product/design comparison matrix. Ideally, I think it'd be nice to be able to expand or contract the woofer's detailed specs, as I know it can be overwhelming or meaningless to many people. And as far as the speaker's directivity performance, maybe an image of each? Would a directivity index number suffice? I'd also like to know more about the compression drivers and list that, but I haven't tried to hunt that down yet (e.g. what do I get by going from 205 to 250 to 360?).

 

EDIT: Also I wish the SEOS Speaker Builds forum category had one thread per design. Do you think each designer could start one? Or could Erich or one of the more educated members? A summary of the design intent and how it fits in and relates to the other designs would help so much. Directivity plots and crossover discussion, etc. A lot of this does exist elsewhere, but it can be a bear to find. And now with the new naming scheme it's a good time, perhaps? Suggest the currently-best thread/post to link to for each design and I'll add those.

 

Also, I provided terse comment phrases but some of that might be my own subjective take on the designs, so feel free to add to it and correct!

 

 

 

As I'm pretty new to this (speaker building and theory), I'm sure there are items I could eliminate, and some I should include, so feel free to chime in and advise!


EDIT: And personally, I am so thrilled about these speakers. It's amazing that just a few years ago there were so few options and education about controlled directivity, high sensitivity/power designs. Then we get CHT and eD, and then they go out of business (or at least almost). The Econowaves and SEOS designs are game-changers, and I'm so grateful to Zilch, Wayne Parham, Erich, and all the designers for their thousands of hours work and assistance. 

 

Although I've long advocated for center speakers in general, from what y'all are saying, and having a too-narrow 12' room, leads me to think that two SEOS speakers without a center will do the trick. I'm leaning towards the Fusion-10 Pure but not sure what I give up not going with the DNS-350 of the Max?


Edited by Eyleron - 1/1/13 at 6:26pm
post #6402 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The Zephyr is only better than the Tempest for music if you aren't using subwoofers. With a 14' x 20' room, the 12" models will easily be enough. That's about as big as my living room and I can promise you, the 12" models will fill that with no problem at all.

The Zephyr does measure to have lower distortion too, a product of the shorting ring in the motor. However, I am not sure that I can perceive this difference even though it does show up in the measurements. It is flatter too, and for some people this matters. Even though it reaches to 40Hz, I still like to use it with a subwoofer though.

Jeff
post #6403 of 9844
Here's a pic of the 8" two-way that I am working on. It uses the Eminence Beta 8-A woofer in a box that measures 9.5" x 9.5" x 17" tall. I think Erich calls the waveguide the EOS8, but he can correct me on that part.

I haven't though of a name of this one yet. How about giving me some suggestions....

Teaser Pic:



Jeff B.
post #6404 of 9844

700

 

How about the Latin for "Little Brother" (at least that's what the Latin Translator says): Parum Frater?  biggrin.gif

post #6405 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

700


How about the Latin for "Little Brother" (at least that's what the Latin Translator says): Parum Frater?  biggrin.gif

Are you like some kind of magician or something? biggrin.gifeek.gifbiggrin.gif How did you whip that up so fast???
post #6406 of 9844
Saved time by not including the first S smile.gif
post #6407 of 9844
I kind of like the name "teaser "..
post #6408 of 9844
Tazer

Do these have that trademark "Bagby" sound?
post #6409 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post

Saved time by not including the first S smile.gif

LOL 

 

Speakers are easy to mask out in Photoshop, what with those straight lines.

 

I considered "another jeff bagby joint" as the tagline too. Or, "bringing sexy back to elliptical oblate spheroidal wave guides"?

post #6410 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

SEOS Speaker Kit Product Matrix



Since I'd already started a grid of SEOS speaker kits I was considering, I thought I'd keep adding to it the rest (ones that are overkill or too expensive smile.gif  for me) and share the spreadsheet.

Google Drive spreadsheet of SEOS Waveguide Speaker Kits Comparison Matrix.

It has conditional formatting marking the missing items in yellow, where we're missing a couple woofer specs, speaker sensitivity or crossover, or the cost of the DNA-205 (not that the latter really matters).

I bolded items I thought might be of interest as an "upgrade" over the prior version, but I know some of that is debateable. I can remove the bolding if it just confuses/clutters.

I hope this might help people in the meantime until there's a product/design comparison matrix. Ideally, I think it'd be nice to be able to expand or contract the woofer's detailed specs, as I know it can be overwhelming or meaningless to many people. And as far as the speaker's directivity performance, maybe an image of each? Would a directivity index number suffice? I'd also like to know more about the compression drivers and list that, but I haven't tried to hunt that down yet (e.g. what do I get by going from 205 to 250 to 360?).

EDIT: Also I wish the SEOS Speaker Builds forum category had one thread per design. Do you think each designer could start one? Or could Erich or one of the more educated members? A summary of the design intent and how it fits in and relates to the other designs would help so much. Directivity plots and crossover discussion, etc. A lot of this does exist elsewhere, but it can be a bear to find. And now with the new naming scheme it's a good time, perhaps? Suggest the currently-best thread/post to link to for each design and I'll add those.

Also, I provided terse comment phrases but some of that might be my own subjective take on the designs, so feel free to add to it and correct!



As I'm pretty new to this (speaker building and theory), I'm sure there are items I could eliminate, and some I should include, so feel free to chime in and advise!
EDIT: And personally, I am so thrilled about these speakers. It's amazing that just a few years ago there were so few options and education about controlled directivity, high sensitivity/power designs. Then we get CHT and eD, and then they go out of business (or at least almost). The Econowaves and SEOS designs are game-changers, and I'm so grateful to Zilch, Wayne Parham, Erich, and all the designers for their thousands of hours work and assistance. 

Although I've long advocated for center speakers in general, from what y'all are saying, and having a too-narrow 12' room, leads me to think that two SEOS speakers without a center will do the trick. I'm leaning towards the Fusion-10 Pure but not sure what I give up not going with the DNS-350 of the Max?


You've got some great stuff started there. The directivity info will likely wait until it gets warmer outside. It's pretty cold here for testing.

Obviously this whole project is finally coming together and while the kits are up and ready to go, more and more information will be added as time goes on. The guys that are ordering and building these kits first are the pioneers because there will certainly be questions that pop up that haven't been made crystal clear yet. A lot of that is my fault for plowing forward to get the kits listed as soon as possible, but it will eventually flow pretty good.
post #6411 of 9844
Let me know if I can be of help. I am a project manager at a web software company and get my hands dirty with front end user interface stuff, so I do work around web languages like PHP, JS, Perl, ASP, etc. I feel your pain in trying to work within the confines of the shopping cart software and content management system!
post #6412 of 9844
Eric,
First, I would like to thank you for all your incredible hard work on this project. You are allowing me to make some amazing HT speakers for far less work and money than I ever thought possible.

However, I have a friend that is interested in building a full range large floor standing speaker. I looked in the matrix and none of the speakers is really designed to be used full range. Are there any designs in the pipeline that have extension to 30Hz or below? I was hoping someone would do this type of design around the AE TD12X, as this would be one of the best for this purpose, maybe a MLTL?
post #6413 of 9844
Does the Alpha-8 Minion kit ($202 each) include the flat pack for the entire enclosure (as listed)?

How would the Alpha-8 compare to the Kharma-10 across the front for pure HT crossed over with a competent sub in a room ~ 18' x 25'?
post #6414 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

Let me know if I can be of help. I am a project manager at a web software company and get my hands dirty with front end user interface stuff, so I do work around web languages like PHP, JS, Perl, ASP, etc. I feel your pain in trying to work within the confines of the shopping cart software and content management system!

I wish I knew that! 5 days ago! I had someone fix the 'wish list' on the site, make any links automatically be underlined without me having to manually add the correct tags, and turn on the message input box so when you're checking out you can tell me something about the order. $240 was the end price. But people kept telling me the wish list didn't work, so I wanted to get it fixed and I'm at the mercy of the computer gurus. smile.gif

The current site was just a template I bought for pretty cheap to help track all this stuff. It turned out to be a nightmare and needed a lot of extra work. But it does okay for keeping things somewhat organized. I'd really like to create some type of photo gallery. There's suppose to be a free program that works with the shopping cart software I'm using. But I have no idea how to do that kind of stuff. If you see things I can change to make it better, I'm always open for ideas.

I'm also hoping to set up a page to give people credit for things they've helped with. Like logos, photo help, speaker designs, web help, etc.
post #6415 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmc View Post

Eric,
First, I would like to thank you for all your incredible hard work on this project. You are allowing me to make some amazing HT speakers for far less work and money than I ever thought possible.
However, I have a friend that is interested in building a full range large floor standing speaker. I looked in the matrix and none of the speakers is really designed to be used full range. Are there any designs in the pipeline that have extension to 30Hz or below? I was hoping someone would do this type of design around the AE TD12X, as this would be one of the best for this purpose, maybe a MLTL?

The speaker designers are the ones that did the stuff most of us can't do. biggrin.gif

The Alpha-12 Zephyr was designed as a full range speaker and get down into the mid 30's. That's certainly considered full range. The frequency response listed doesn't tell the whole story. If we go by just those numbers, it would appear that the 4" HiVi in the Overnight Sensation kits would beat the 12" Delta Pro in the Tempest in the low bass department.

BWaslo also did a design using the Dayton Designer Series 12" woofer that could be tuned into the upper 20's. But after we listened to it for a while, we ended up tuning it in the mid 30's and it sounded better to me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post

Does the Alpha-8 Minion kit ($202 each) include the flat pack for the entire enclosure (as listed)?
How would the Alpha-8 compare to the Kharma-10 across the front for pure HT crossed over with a competent sub in a room ~ 18' x 25'?

That doesn't include the box, only the cut baffle. It's a small speaker, but uses a fairly expensive woofer and an extensive crossover. But the price is still low.

The woofer is $100,
the crossover is $49.97,
the CD is $30 or maybe $32,
waveguide was about $10 or $12 (can't recall),
baffle was $8.
Packing material: $4
Paypal fee: $6

$208 Grand Total.

Saved about $20 - $24 with discounts = $184
Figured $13 for "free shipping" = $197
Designer fee $5.

Total price on the site: $202.

Obviously that's as tight as it can possibly get. I don't think I added in the 2 ports or screws, so the price will likely go up a bit.



I already have the Baltic boxes for those, I just need to upload the photos. Their weigh is small enough to where I might be able to calculate free shipping on that entire kit. But the price of the box itself would have to be added in. The reason I only included the baffles for the kits is because some people want to build their own box. But the baffle isn't very easy to cut, and most are only about $10 - $18. So it made sense to include those.

Picking between the 2 models you mentioned for an 18' x 25' room and strictly for HT, I would lean towards the karma-10's up front. Both use the same compression driver, but the SEOS-12 and the 10" woofer might be better for that large of an area. I think the 8" models make for great surrounds, or a perfect 5.1 or 7.1 surround system in a mid sized room. Especially if cabinet size was an issue. The more expensive Alpha-8 would have a smoother response, which is to be expected.
Edited by Erich H - 1/3/13 at 6:08am
post #6416 of 9844
Erich,

Do you know if this baffle fits the TD12M? Thanks


http://www.diysoundgroup.com/seos-12-ported-baffle.html
post #6417 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

The 360's aren't completely out of stock. I just wanted to make sure there were still some left once the kits came out.
But to be safe, I did order more a little while ago and they will be here in about 30 days or so.
If you really wanted the 360's, just let me know.

Did you get more stock of the 360's? I just want drivers and waveguides.
post #6418 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

That doesn't include the box, only the cut baffle.

You might want to double-check or clarify the description of the Alpha-8 since the first bullet under "Included Parts" reads "1 - flat pack made from mdf with rabbet joints and recesses for drivers" and it's the only model that mentions this. Also, the ports are included in the parts list and the site picture... not sure if the price needs to be adjusted to reflect that.

If I went with Kharma-10s across the front, would you recommend matching the Kharma-8 for surrounds? I'm not sure if I'm going to go with box or in-wall surrounds yet (already have Sonance THX-LCR and THX-SUR in-walls I could recycle from my current theater), but I would assume the Kharma-8 would be a good match and up to the task.

Thanks again!
post #6419 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Erich,
Do you know if this baffle fits the TD12M? Thanks
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/seos-12-ported-baffle.html
This baffle fits many popular 12" woofers with an overall diameter of 12.38.
What is the diameter of the TD12M with and without the gasket?
post #6420 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

This baffle fits many popular 12" woofers with an overall diameter of 12.38.
What is the diameter of the TD12M with and without the gasket?


The diameter is 12.5, 0.625" is the depth to flush mount the driver. The hole cut out needs to be 11.0625". <--taken from Mike's td12m build thread.
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