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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 225

post #6721 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"When the woofer is chosen judicially, the near directivity of the woofer, which starts at omni at its lowest range, narrows to match the directivity of the WG at the woofers upper end making a matched directivity handoff. Note the woofer itself does not have constant directivity throughout its passband."

right. this is just letting the horn cover the territory where the driver would normally go from omni to beaming.

instead of letting the woofer cover the range where it goes from beaming to omni, which for a 15" is say from 1khz to 500hz, just let the horn do the same thing, it will go from beaming (holding its nomnal pattern) to omni (losing directivity control).

i think the reason that it isn't done this way more frequently is that a 500-600hz crossover point is a litle low for something like most 1" c.d.'s such as the dna360 and 3" diameter diaphragm compression drivers used to be EXPENSIVE, but with the ba750, the cost makes it a possibility for more folks to experiment with and it should be fine to cross in that low range (I THINK).
A OB or Ripole sub with a 15" in a cardioid enclosure teamed with a large waveguide would be CD below the Schroeder frequency. cool.gif I've seriously been thinking about giving this a try, but can't decide what to do north of the 15". Originally, I wanted a SEOS 24, but that idea was shot down by a few people I've spoken to. A SEOS 15 or 18 would be a better idea, then was to do north of there, if needed...
post #6722 of 7531
My plan is to tuck the waveguides tightly into the front corners and let the corners take over controlling the directivity where the waveguides leave off. I'd have tried it already except for two things: Erich's website is showing out of stock on the BA-750 and the house with the requisite corners is only just now being built. Next step might be a Synergy clone in the same corners and the low crossover frequency supported by the BA should make that easier as well.
post #6723 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post


SEOS-12, DNA-360, AE TD12M front stage. Mains have a side mounted SB Acoustic 10" woofer. Big step up in coherence and dynamics from my previous setup.

Mike, congrats on making the AE Facebook page! They look really nice. Looking forward to your impressions and any design criteria you might share. I'll be using the TD10M with a SEOS-AT1 with the BMS 4550, measuring with OmnniMic v2 and DATS. With the rear mount, what are your driver offsets, did you use PCD?
post #6724 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i think the reason that it isn't done this way more frequently is that a 500-600hz crossover point is a litle low for something like most 1" c.d.'s such as the dna360 and 3" diameter diaphragm compression drivers used to be EXPENSIVE, but with the ba750, the cost makes it a possibility for more folks to experiment with and it should be fine to cross in that low range (I THINK).

Yes, that's also the way I think of it too.

Drivers larger than 1" have upper octave rolloff .... and have datasheet which often recommend crossovers well over 1khz.
For domestic purposes especially I think these are often over exaggerated issues.
Distortion and polar measurements from 400-1400 are the key to work it out of course.


Myself, I'm keen to keep point source and pattern control down very very low .... so I'm doing a "synergy horn". We'll see eventually how much difference it makes I guess. (I also like a challenge)
post #6725 of 7531
Thread Starter 
"My plan is to tuck the waveguides tightly into the front corners and let the corners take over controlling the directivity where the waveguides leave off."

that is what cowan is doing with success. http://www.cowanaudio.com/finale.html

"I'm doing a "synergy horn". We'll see eventually how much difference it makes I guess. (I also like a challenge)"

yeah, the synergies hold pattern control and point source phase lower in frequency, but as you point out, they are a more complicated build. i'd like to see the ba driver on the seos simply because it might offer a large chunk of the performance of synergy type solutions at a small fraction of the additional complexity and cost. we'll see...
post #6726 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i'd like to see the ba driver on the seos simply because it might offer a large chunk of the performance of synergy type solutions at a small fraction of the additional complexity and cost. we'll see...

Yes indeed .... I'm going to do the work to find out .... but I'm building the Synergy Horns first ...... I might never find the excuse to build them if I discover first that a large WG and CD can be good enough for me.
post #6727 of 7531
Some Synergy horn flat pack kits would be awesome. Any possibility of that in the future?
post #6728 of 7531
Not right now. smile.gif
Edited by Erich H - 1/23/13 at 9:33pm
post #6729 of 7531
Any news on the Fusion-8?
post #6730 of 7531
The design was finished up a couple days ago. But PE has been out of the woofer and an inductor for a couple weeks, so no pictures yet. The woofers are suppose to be back in stock tomorrow. I think the price came in around $170, but I don't have that in front of me to double check.

Jeff seemed happy with the way the speaker turned out.
post #6731 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Mike, congrats on making the AE Facebook page! They look really nice. Looking forward to your impressions and any design criteria you might share. I'll be using the TD10M with a SEOS-AT1 with the BMS 4550, measuring with OmnniMic v2 and DATS. With the rear mount, what are your driver offsets, did you use PCD?
Thanks! So far I'm impressed. Very clean, coherent. When hooked up to my 2 channel rig(in another room) the presentation, imaging, and soundstage are much different than the traditional three way towers I'm using, but not in a bad way. I still may do a little tweaking to the crossovers in the mains though. I didn't add any BSC as I wasn't sure if it would be needed, but it is...maybe 2-3db at most.

I tried PCD but had trouble with the offsets, so my initial results were less than spectacular. I then pulled out all my bins of crossover parts and went to work until I had something with good response on and off axis, plus linear phase.
post #6732 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Some Synergy horn flat pack kits

As you probably know .... Totally not a trivial undertaking to either design ... cut panels ... or put together. Also driver availability for the midranges would be an issue to be addressed (the kit would only work with that driver).



FWIW - There's a couple of other Synergy homebrew projects around the world. You could try getting involved there, even if it's in a different country.... and it could work out a simple for you as only having to coordinate getting your own CNC work done ?!
post #6733 of 7531
post #6734 of 7531
Erich:
Any word on when you'll have more BA-750 drivers available?
Jack
post #6735 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackNC View Post

Erich:
Any word on when you'll have more BA-750 drivers available?
Jack

X2 - Curious here.

Also - Any other larger type CD's in the works? biggrin.gif
post #6736 of 7531
A note: The BA 750 has been referred to as having a 3" diaphragm.

The BA 750 actually has a 2" diaphragm. Some of the typos in reference to it remain to be corrected.
post #6737 of 7531
FP15 prototype on my turntable smile.gif

post #6738 of 7531
Wow, those are nice looking!
post #6739 of 7531
Finally it will look like this one.

post #6740 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzagaja View Post

Finally it will look like this one.


Really a shame it looks so nice. tongue.gif
post #6741 of 7531
Looks like a great surround speaker smile.gif
post #6742 of 7531
Wow! Nice! are we going to have access to that baffle? I am assuming since it is labeled FP15, that it integrates an SEOS 15 with a 15" woofer. Am I correct?
post #6743 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I have some bad news guys.

Last night I posted the Zilch kit because someone asked about it. I made the price of the kit much less than you could buy the original parts for. Like nearly $100 less. As mentioned on that page, I also added $20 to the kit price that would be donated to the Lung Cancer Association in Zilch's name. I was also going to personally match that to make it $40 per speaker that could be donated to the Lung Cancer Association. No donations in my name, not for advertising purposes, not to use his name for anything else. Simply put one of his designs up for no profit, then hope to donate $40 to a charity that made sense. As stated, I was going to post the receipt after the donation.

To me, this was one of the nicer things I could think up with for our friend Zilch, and I truly believe he would've been happy to see it done. I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't be pleased to see that. I really can't.

But I just received an email telling me that I had to remove his name from the site, and that:

"Using Zilch's name in advertising on your website is disingenuous at best and insulting to the vision of the man at worst."

Everyone here knows that I liked Zilch and wasn't using his name for "advertising" because his speaker doesn't even use the SEOS.......because the SEOS wasn't even out yet. confused.gif

We all liked Zilch and should thank him for getting us "re-energized" on all waveguides in general. He experimented with many of them, and was looking forward to the SEOS design that AudioJosh, Coctostan, LTD02, jzagaja, LBDiver, and many others in this community helped with. I wanted to show thanks by setting this kit up to donate in his name to the charity I thought made sense. I honestly don't understand why anyone would say that was bad, but it is what it is.

Hello Erich,

First of all, if the person who sent the email does not have some legal copyright to the "Zilch" name, then you should ignore it.

If the design you are posting is a unique Diysoundgroup design simply intended to honor Zilch, and one you aren't even making any money from (as you have stated), then there should no issue. This sounds like the case since you are using your own unique compression driver and waveguide (not parts used by Zilch), and therefore probably a unique crossover as well.

However, even if this is an exact version of a Zilch design, and it is based on a design published in the public domain, then it is still OK for you to post it, as with all public domain designs. I have discussed this with an attorney in the past regarding my own designs so I am well acquainted with how this works.

The only issue would be if the name "zilch" is copyrighted by someone then you might want to change the name.

If this email came from a disgruntled individual who has no real connection to any of this then you do not have to do anything.

Jeff B.
Edited by Jeff Bagby - 1/24/13 at 2:17pm
post #6744 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by avpassion View Post

Wow! Nice! are we going to have access to that baffle? I am assuming since it is labeled FP15, that it integrates an SEOS 15 with a 15" woofer. Am I correct?

It looks to me like that is an 18" woofer specifically a B&C 18PS76 which would make HFGuy's statement kind of ironic. biggrin.gif
post #6745 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I'll add my 2c to this.

I think Erich's intentions with the Zilch speaker are good, but what I think about that doesn't matter. I think it is appropriate for Erich and DSG to respect the wishes of Evan's estate. Evan's estate has its opinions on how the Zilch moniker should be used and they simply don't coincide with Erich's. Sadly, we can't ask Zilch himself.

I think that Erich can still sell the design because IMO it is public domain. The issue is with the use of the name. The wishes of the estate must be respected IMO.

I am a friend of Erich's and a SEOS contributor. I'm also a friend of Wayne and many in the "old guard" as LTD put it. The fact is that the two groups are quite separate beyond some similar principles like constant directivity and high sensitivity speakers.

I think that at this point it would be best to simply eliminate any formal ties or references between the two groups unless the official stakeholders (Erich with DSG and Chris with ZilchLabs) can come to a peace in private. Short of that, I think we need to move on.

I don't recall Zilch partaking in much drama and we should all honor him by following his example (that goes for all sides...myself included). We are all able to honor Zilch's memory simply by building speakers and helping others enjoy this hobby...which was Zilch's real contribution. I don't think anybody would argue that he would object to that.

I may be mistaken, and please correct me if I am, but I was under the impression that this complaint came from Wayne and not from "Evan's estate" (Chris Becker). If this is the case, it doesn't matter what Wayne says, he doesn't represent the estate.

The simplest thing for Erich to do would be to change the name of the speaker, but it may not be necessary, and it is a shame if it happens due to bullying by a third party. I am not an expert on the history of the SEOS, but I can tell that there have been some false things written about Erich in the messages that have been sent to me.
post #6746 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Bagby View Post

I may be mistaken, and please correct me if I am, but I was under the impression that this complaint came from Wayne and not from "Evan's estate" (Chris Becker).

I suspect many here may share this impression. but most likely this is not the case.
post #6747 of 7531
Quote:
Originally Posted by davewantsmoore View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

i think the reason that it isn't done this way more frequently is that a 500-600hz crossover point is a litle low for something like most 1" c.d.'s such as the dna360 and 3" diameter diaphragm compression drivers used to be EXPENSIVE, but with the ba750, the cost makes it a possibility for more folks to experiment with and it should be fine to cross in that low range (I THINK).

Yes, that's also the way I think of it too.

Drivers larger than 1" have upper octave rolloff .... and have datasheet which often recommend crossovers well over 1khz.
Does the idea of a three-way design with two waveguides make sense in this context? Is it inordinately complicated?

Fred
post #6748 of 7531
Erich (and Jeff),

With all due respect to Jeff, copyright isn't the issue here, but Jeff's general message rings true.

Unless there are documents, books or specifically copyright materials that Zilch had a copyright on, which I don't believe he did, it still wouldn't be an issue, because copy plagiarism isn't what you are doing anyhow.

Trademarks and Patents are what would be of concern. I just completed a search, and there are no audio patents published or granted to Zilch (Evan) and while there are about a dozen trademarks on "Zilch", they are all in categories of clothing, weed killers, and a number of other things, but nothing in the art area of audio, acoustics, or loudspeakers.

All of Zilch's designs were placed in the public domain, inherently by the way he disclosed them and didn't file for any intellectual property.

If anyone is attempting to sincerely carry on what Zilch wanted to have happen in the future, it is yourself, and I'm sure he would be proud of what you have attempted to accomplish. If there is any criticism of your efforts, it is that you are too selfless, and because of that, your concept may not be sustainable.

Ultimately, Zilch's name and works are in the public domain for anyone to use as they wish. I for one, would much rather his name be honored and his theology perpetuated by you and your DIY Sound group semi-business, than to see his name fade into the past and not be sustained and honored.

In any case, the issue is not one of legal standing.

You (or anyone else) can pursue what you wish, in regards to the Zilch name and designs. I hope the forum participants support your efforts in this regard.

All the best,

- James


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Bagby View Post

Hello Erich,

First of all, if the person who sent the email does not have a some legal copyright to the "Zilch" name, then you should ignore it.

If the design you are posting is a unique Diysoundgroup design simply intended to honor Zilch, and one your aren't even makling any money from (as you have stated), then there should no issue. This sounds like the case since you are using your own unique compression driver and waveguide, and therefore probably a unique crossover as well.

However, even if this is an exact version of a Zilch design, and it is based on a design published in the public domain, then it is still OK for you to post it, as with all public domain designs. I have discussed this with an attorney in the past regarding my own designs so I am well acquainted with how this works.

The only issue would if the name "zilch" is copyrighted by someone then you might want to change the name.

If this email came from a disgruntled individual who has no real connection to any of this then you do not have to do anything.

Jeff B.
post #6749 of 7531
I suggest we move along and discuss specifically SEOS designs and advancements in this thread.

If someone want to speaks of other designs, they can go to the appropriate forums.

And anyone coming in here with an intent to bully this community and SEOS, they should be ignored.

Problem solved. tongue.gif

So, any good news yet on the AE baffles?
post #6750 of 7531
Thread Starter 
"Does the idea of a three-way design with two waveguides make sense in this context? Is it inordinately complicated?"

they are definitely doable, but like you point out, three way designs get more complicated and they also don't benefit from point source phase (the two horns would be two different sources).

"The BA 750 actually has a 2" diaphragm. Some of the typos in reference to it remain to be corrected."

are you sure?
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