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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 233

post #6961 of 9844
Great... hopefully I'll get my notification soon as well for the TD15Ms.... I got my notification for the TD15Hs I was waiting on.... they should be here Monday.... time to get firing on all cylinders to get my big speakers build project going... just waiting on the horns now from Poland and everything will be here...

Erich, waiting on email reply with document attachment we discussed and settled on. Please send that along so I can get started on that. Thanks!
post #6962 of 9844
That's good news. Waiting for phase plugs, a pair of TD10M, and the shippment from Poland. Anyone else waiting for TD10 drivers?
post #6963 of 9844
I want/need to order my speakers this weekend:

The Deltalite kit calls for 2cu feet but the 21" tall flat pack is only 1.1 cu feet.

What is the f3 pf the deltalite in the smaller 1.1cu kit?

What is the best f3 speaker for the 1.1cu kit?

Where is the cut sheet for the deltalite? Its not on the page?
post #6964 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

That's the most common/traditional approach, and one that would best emulate the experience of listening to a band at a concert, etc. - but not the only/"right" way - I was very impressed by the experience of the "stage mixes" that AIX records offers (filecat13 was kind enough to hook several of us up for a tour/demo at Mark's studio last year):

http://www.aixrecords.com/techtalk/5_1_stage_mix.html

I prefer that feeling of being "in" the music, vs. listening to a performance in front of me - sadly, not many artists are available with this kind of mix, and even fewer mainstream.

Just to be clear, I didn't mean to imply that the approach I was advocating was the only "right" way. Reproduction of music or movies is meant to please, and everyone should be free to choose what they find most enjoyable. I used to have a number of clients that were orchestra conductors and they were used to hearing the performance in a more near-field, immersive manner and they liked their home audio systems to do the same.

Most folks don't listen from the conductors podium, so a row M perspective tend to be the target perspective. There are a number of complex psycho-visual/acoustical variables that ultimately need to be taken into account. In the past, most music playback at home was without any visual input of the performers. This often caused a skewing of experiential desire for hyper focused presentation of the performing instruments to help overcome the fact that we can't "see" where they are. I used to take my customers to concerts and had them listen with their eyes closed. Most often they were very surprised at how difficult it was to localize any particular instrument in space, compared to when their eyes were open.

The "common/traditional" approach, as you call it, has been to attempt to recreate the original venue experience of a live event in one's home. But, one's experience of a live event varies dramatically depending a number of variables. Since we don't have all the cues of a live event at home, each of us finds a different way to make up for the missing inputs. Some prefer over focused images as their cure, others want a more "front row" perspective, and still others like to be in the middle of the event to experience "aliveness".

So, while each person is granted their personal approach to adding their favorite spice to their musical recipe, with the current formats available it is most effective to have a common goal for a listening perspective, or these conversations end up being circular, with a tug of war over how one person's view of what device or systemization is argued as better than another... when often it is more of an argument of desired perspective.

I think we can agree that if we are all attempting to arrive at a different actual audio presentation to meet what we personally need to satisfy our experiential needs, it is difficult to make progress with any efficiency or success. The ultimate limitation in reproduction is not a technology limitation, but one of lack of standards for a record/playback formulation. As builders of the playback systems, we really don't have any recording paradigm to leverage from. Every recording engineer has their pet methods to capture a musical event and it is amazing that we can have a satisfying playback of that random process at all.

If we have virtually an infinite number of recording techniques, and just as many differentiated desires for what we look for in our playback experience... well I'll let you fill in the blank, as to how that is a recipe for disaster, if not lack of progress.

That is one reason why I recommend that same old boring "common/traditional" approach of trying to be transported to the actual sounds present at the listening seat of a structured live event. If we work towards a focused goal at the playback definition (and eventually at the recording end) we have a fighting chance to achieve at least one dimension of success.

Stepping off the soap box now...

- James
Edited by PureBASS - 2/15/13 at 12:49pm
post #6965 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlim View Post

PureBASS, am I correct if I'm guessing your name is James Croft?

Yes. Good sleuthing!

- JC
post #6966 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Why controlled directivity if you want an ambient sound? Why not an omni directivity? For surrounds, I say let them reflect and illuminate the room. As long as the polar pattern is uniform. And I think that's what you mean. Surrounds should be uniform off axis.

CD with proper pointing will improve SPL uniformity for different listeners, which I agree will not give maximum spaciousness.

As well as what James has pointed out:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureBASS View Post

I doubt that it needs to be said in a group as directivity savvy as this group that works with CD waveguides, but unless a loudspeaker is a high directivity design or one that has wide-band constant directivity such that off-axis output is substantially reduced over thee bandwidth of use, then it is going to still be perceived as if it is aimed at the listener, with a tendency for a somewhat unbalanced response at the listening position.
...
I find that a lot of systems that carefully maintain constant directivity and smooth power response from the direct frontal channels can have an excellent lifelike, low coloration direct and room response, only to be substantially compromised tonally by adding surround channels that don't maintain the same power response integrity and timbre matching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureBASS View Post

The goals of proper movie or music recording, is to never have a sound source that draws the attention away from the frontal presentation of the movie screen or orchestra stage.

I agree that's the case for music, including music in movies, but not for rear effects in movies like rear-front flyovers or other specific effects.

That said, even a diffuse floyover will be effective, and my personal preference is to maximize ambiance over discrete localization.

Really appreciate your exposition.
post #6967 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

CD with proper pointing will improve SPL uniformity for different listeners, which I agree will not give maximum spaciousness.

As well as what James has pointed out:

I agree that's the case for music, including music in movies, but not for rear effects in movies like rear-front flyovers or other specific effects.

That said, even a diffuse floyover will be effective, and my personal preference is to maximize ambiance over discrete localization.

Really appreciate your exposition.

Thanks Noah.

I agree about the movie experience.

I too enjoy watching movies with a good jet fly over from the right front to the left rear area of the room.

By "proper movie recording not drawing attention from frontal presentation" I was referring to the audio guidelines that the movie directors stated for the audio engineers, as they didn't want viewers ever being distracted from the screen... but alas, the drive to sensationalism became an overriding factor with movie sound track engineering, and I for one am glad it turned out that way as I do enjoy occasionally turning my head and visualizing that jet fighter that is aurally disappearing so convincingly out the back side of my room.

- James
Edited by PureBASS - 2/15/13 at 11:48am
post #6968 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Horstkotte View Post

That's the most common/traditional approach, and one that would best emulate the experience of listening to a band at a concert, etc. - but not the only/"right" way - I was very impressed by the experience of the "stage mixes" that AIX records offers (filecat13 was kind enough to hook several of us up for a tour/demo at Mark's studio last year):

http://www.aixrecords.com/techtalk/5_1_stage_mix.html

I prefer that feeling of being "in" the music, vs. listening to a performance in front of me - sadly, not many artists are available with this kind of mix, and even fewer mainstream.

AIX is one of the reasons I am excited about upcoming AXPONA show in Chicago.

One thing that always bothered me about multi channel audio playback in HT setups is that position of the surrounds cannot be good for both. A potential compromise I found was to use rear surrounds for music . Using HTPC/Foobar2000 with SACD and DVDA plugins as source, I was able to set custom channel routes with ASIO drivers. It worked but for whatever reason the AVR only processed it in "direct" mode, meaning no EQ or bass management. The sound was okay at best, which may be the reason I did not get hooked on the multi-channel music thing. I wish AVRs could offer a choice to use side or rear surrounds for 5.1 tracks.
post #6969 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

I want/need to order my speakers this weekend:

The Deltalite kit calls for 2cu feet but the 21" tall flat pack is only 1.1 cu feet.

 

I believe eric is replacing the original 2cu ft flat pack for the Deltalite with the much taller one that is listed on the site now. Eric did say he had the original 2cu flat packs still so you should send him an email if you want those. I think the dimensions were 14.5 x 21 x 16.

 

Quote:
What is the f3 of the deltalite in the smaller 1.1cu kit?
 

 

For a QTC of 0.703, the Deltalite needs a 2.3cu ft enclosure (no stuffing). 1.1cu ft is really small for that driver, QTC will go up to 0.909 (no stuffing). The F3 is 91hz.

 

 

Quote:
What is the best f3 speaker for the 1.1cu kit?
 

 

The Fusion Tempest-12 works really well in a small 1 cu ft enclosure but the F3 is a little high at 105hz.

post #6970 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post


Erich, waiting on email reply with document attachment we discussed and settled on. Please send that along so I can get started on that. Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

Got my shipping notification for my TD12M Phase Plugs. Yay!!! Should be here in 4 days. Erich, I don't know if you've had time for those baffles and boxes, but if so, let me know.

Erich, I see there are others that are patiently waiting for these too. I've had several pm's with you, and am patiently waiting to hear back if the time is getting any closer.

Jon B
post #6971 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrkazador View Post

I believe eric is replacing the original 2cu ft flat pack for the Deltalite with the much taller one that is listed on the site now. Eric did say he had the original 2cu flat packs still so you should send him an email if you want those. I think the dimensions were 14.5 x 21 x 16.


For a QTC of 0.703, the Deltalite needs a 2.3cu ft enclosure (no stuffing). 1.1cu ft is really small for that driver, QTC will go up to 0.909 (no stuffing). The F3 is 91hz.



The Fusion Tempest-12 works really well in a small 1 cu ft enclosure but the F3 is a little high at 105hz.

So Confused!!!

i thought there were only 3 flat packs

.6, 1.1 and 2.0.... grrrr

Deltalite has no cut sheet either
post #6972 of 9844
Thread Starter 
"Deltalite has no cut sheet either"

which one are you looking for?

i'm pretty sure that they all exist.

here is the 2512 if that is the one you were after.

http://www.eminence.com/pdf/DeltaliteII_2512.pdf
post #6973 of 9844

Pretty sure he wants the enclosure cut outs.

post #6974 of 9844
Yeah guess if i cant figure it out then im sol
post #6975 of 9844

Post the dimensions you want and someone could give you a cut list. I assume you want something built around the Deltalite baffle (14.5x21")? If Eric doesn't have the cut list then I could create one but you would have to wait a few days or so.

post #6976 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

So Confused!!!

i thought there were only 3 flat packs

.6, 1.1 and 2.0.... grrrr

Deltalite has no cut sheet either

"You can get this kit with just the baffle so you can make your own 2 cu ft enclosure around it. Just build a box 14.5" wide, 21" tall, and 15.25" deep. Add two horizontal braces and one vertical brace, then glue on the included baffle and you're done. "

Use boxnotes and plug in the dimensions

http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/freesoft.htm

generate a cutlist and enter it into cutlist

http://www.delphiforfun.org/programs/cutlist.htm

should only take you like 20 min to do it
post #6977 of 9844
I must be slow doing a cut list for my TV stand is taking me 2 months
post #6978 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post


Except isn't the 1 pi an 8" with flush dome? I doubt that would have a uniform polar response, which is important for surrounds.

For high sens and that kind of package, ill be using the sb29 neo crossed to a 5 or 6" at 1500 to 1800hz. But I don't have a large listening distance. That'll give a uniform polar response and wide vertical lobe. If I have to, I'll make it a compact 3-way with an 8" woofer.

 

Would you say that a JBL 8330 is better suited for surround duty than the 1pi? Lots of the 8330 on ebay and about the same price as a 1pi. If its better then I can go with that and create an enclosure that fits my space.

 

Another speaker I've been looking at for surround duty is the JBL L820. Its a sealed 4 way with 90db sensitivity.


Edited by Mrkazador - 2/17/13 at 5:34pm
post #6979 of 9844
Do we have any updates on the pallet out of Poland? Do they give updates as they complete items or just when the pallet ships do they pass along the tracking?

Trying to get a feel for how much longer.... anxious to get rolling on the big speaker projects as well. I've built some goodwill finishing some "honey do" projects. Want to cash it in before pressure builds for the larger projects she's now hatching and discussing smile.gif. Thanks!
post #6980 of 9844
Wow..5 days without a post?

Are people to busy making speakers? biggrin.gif
post #6981 of 9844
Smokarz
Exactly what I was thinking yesterday.
And yes - I am busy trying to finish my deltalight/360s. smile.gif
post #6982 of 9844
Maybe waiting for me to decide on an interesting Kick Starter project.........

biggrin.gif
post #6983 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokarz View Post

Wow..5 days without a post?

Are people to busy making speakers? biggrin.gif

I finally built my crossover for SEOS 360 & TD12M. Tested the drivers and everything sounds good. Once boxes arrive I'll be building. The rest of my day will be spent building a new wort chiller and other homebrew mods.
post #6984 of 9844
Erich,
Ok I'll bite: KickStarter project?
Tell us more - Please!
post #6985 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post

I finally built my crossover for SEOS 360 & TD12M. Tested the drivers and everything sounds good. Once boxes arrive I'll be building. The rest of my day will be spent building a new wort chiller and other homebrew mods.


That reminds me I got a box of x-over parts delivered by PE couple weeks ago.

I really need to get going with my builds. tongue.gif
post #6986 of 9844
OK - seeing how this thread seemed to be stalling a bit. I'll add my latest Deltalight/360 progress photos:

I may or may not use the grill on the woofer?


And for the stands, the "stocking" color is from a rust-oleum rattle-can, it's called Claret Red (satin finish).
I have burgundy drapes in my front proscenium.


Thinking of adding a custom limited-edition, logo plate to the front lower corners, this is from a 3D printer my son has some limited access to:
post #6987 of 9844
Like the stands cuzed
post #6988 of 9844
Very nice!
I like the grill too!
post #6989 of 9844
Looks awesome
post #6990 of 9844
Wow nice logo.
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