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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 262

post #7831 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post


And then some more investigation of the LF roll-off for the mains, and why Audyssey is crossing my mains over at 150Hz.


I don't know Audessy....but......did you go back and manually change this to something reasonable like 60-80Hz? Is the system confusing the shallow roll-off with wimpy little speakers?

FWIIW, I have to manually set my speakers (AE TD15M or JBL 2226) to large and adjust the XO frequency after using Yamaha YPAO in automatic mode.

Yes, Audyssey looks for its assessment of a -3db point and crosses the mains there. You can manually set the speakers to a lower crossover point, however, Audyssey doesn't set any EQ filters below its determined crossover point. So if you lower your mains crossover this leaves that midrange/midbass uncorrected. Also if you go into the EQ manually Audyssey disables its filter set, so as to keep its secret sauce a secret.

Ed, you could still always lower your crossover and see what measures better. Ultimately thats what matters IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

I would be interested to see what swapping the polarity on your tweeter would do for that dip in the crossover region 1.2k....

Update:

OK Gang - did some more testing this weekend. The polarity swap for the tweeter (360 CD) was indeed necessary, see below.



So with the my front SEOS mains behaving well; I have to assume that my roll-off is related to my room, mains placement, and/or room treatment related...?
Probably time to take this to the "acoustical treatment thread" or the "simplified Audyssey thread"

Nice work with the measurement and confirming polarity on the tweeter.

It might also be nice to see a close mic of the woofer overlaid with the measurement at the LP to see how the room is affecting the rolloff of the woofer. Your close mic measurement doesn't look too far off from what I see, my guess is the raggedness at the LP is tricking Audyssey into thinking the speaker is rolling off. As others have said SBIR might be to blame for some of your issues.

Getting the mains as close as possible to the front wall will help as well as treatments of the primary reflections. This might help keep Audyssey from getting confused.
post #7832 of 9857
Hi,

this is my first post here ; I guess the answer I'm looking for is lying in the 262 previous pages, but I feel tired at reading all this... I apologize for this weakness. So, here we go : what is the throat angle of the SEOS 15" wave guide at the input ? Does it match the exit throat angle of :

- DNA360 ?
- DE250 ?
- BA-750 ?

Thanks,
and sorry for my english : this is french diy english ;-)
post #7833 of 9857
It is a match to those CDs, but I can't remember the angle.
post #7834 of 9857
Thanks,
I guess Erich has paid particular attention to this point while designing Denovo comp'...
post #7835 of 9857
Erich, any chance you could look at the PM I sent you yesterday?
Thanks
post #7836 of 9857
I also sent a PM asking about a Duo opposed box for SI-18 drivers. Need something not over 22" x 22" x what ever is needed. 21" x 21" x any length would be better. smile.gif
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post #7837 of 9857
Erich I have a couple of questions:

1. Any update on the SEOS 15 plastics?

2. You posted a few weeks ago that you might be putting together another GB for SEOS from Poland. I will be purchasing some SEOS 18's when you do, so let me know.

I also still owe you for shipping my bms4550's to me, so when we get the SEOS 15's in I will pay you what I owe then! I will also probably order a few flat packs and I am really interested in what you may be looking at for the coaxial speakers.

How has the landscaping business been going?

Thank you.

Brian
post #7838 of 9857
this is a question I'm posing for a friend. My buddy and I just built a trio of cheap thrills for our Home theater mains... my OTHER home theater buddy fell in love with the SEOS's... unfortunately the Cheap Thrills are no longer an option due to the buyout woofer being gone. now the question is... would the Karma 15's be an upgrade performance wise to the Fusion 10's being that they'd be crossed over at 80hz for home theater use only? I know Eric and several others have confirmed that the tempest 12's and fusion pure 10's at 80hz crossover were nearly identical, but since the Karma 15 only extends down to 65 hz I was wondering if the 15 inch driver would make an appreciable performance increase over the 10's... he's willing to spend the extra $46 per kit IFFF there's a performance increase. over the pures. just wanna help him out and get him to the as close a performance to the Cheap thrills as I can for his money
Edited by wormraper - 8/29/13 at 5:18am
post #7839 of 9857
^good questions biggrin.gif

I would also like to hear the answers.
post #7840 of 9857
GOt my crossovers for the fusion 8's back and I'm concerned that these just might not be the speakers for me.

I doubt there is any resale value so I am going to stick with them... I just hope my ear gets use to it.

The problems are:
1. I can hear the horn
2. There are lots of details missing
3. harsh noises around the crossover frequency
post #7841 of 9857
Hmm. This makes me nervous. I ordered Alchemy-8 MTM and two Tempests but Erich hasn't shipped them yet. goonstopher what speakers did you have before?
post #7842 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

GOt my crossovers for the fusion 8's back and I'm concerned that these just might not be the speakers for me.

I doubt there is any resale value so I am going to stick with them... I just hope my ear gets use to it.

The problems are:
1. I can hear the horn
2. There are lots of details missing
3. harsh noises around the crossover frequency

Most guys at the big audio get together liked the Fusion-8's and they were listened to with some much more expensive speakers. There have been a lot of orders for those and everyone seems very happy with no issues yet.

The main thing they say is completely opposite of what you mentioned. Very clean and clear with lots of detail. Jeff Bagby even said the woofer and compression driver blended together very well.....which is why he named the speaker 'Alchemy'. I built a pair myself and really like them. To me, they're smooth enough to be used on my desktop.

Are you 100% sure they're hooked up correctly? I don't know if you could have messed something up before when you had your crossover assembly issues or not. Maybe someone can chime in on that. But if you want to send them back, just let me know. You're the first person that hasn't liked them, but you did have a lot of issues building your crossovers. So maybe something got messed up along the way.
post #7843 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Most guys at the big audio get together liked the Fusion-8's and they were listened to with some much more expensive speakers. There have been a lot of orders for those and everyone seems very happy with no issues yet.

The main thing they say is completely opposite of what you mentioned. Very clean and clear with lots of detail. Jeff Bagby even said the woofer and compression driver blended together very well.....which is why he named the speaker 'Alchemy'. I built a pair myself and really like them. To me, they're smooth enough to be used on my desktop.

Are you 100% sure they're hooked up correctly? I don't know if you could have messed something up before when you had your crossover assembly issues or not. Maybe someone can chime in on that. But if you want to send them back, just let me know. You're the first person that hasn't liked them, but you did have a lot of issues building your crossovers. So maybe something got messed up along the way.

Thank you for the comment and generosity but I don't want you losing money over something that you do to help us all out.

My crossovers were tested by mtg so they must be correct and he labeled what to connect where so the connections are good.

I hope this doesn't dissuade anyone else. Everyone seems to like them but I'm just not hearing the same thing others do.

Either way these are going to be my speakers because there is no possible way I can afford to put out more money
post #7844 of 9857
what do you mean by hear the horn?
post #7845 of 9857
Quote:
The problems are:
1. I can hear the horn
2. There are lots of details missing
3. harsh noises around the crossover frequency

Are they toed in correctly? Are you using an EQ or loudness?

Good luck!
post #7846 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Thank you for the comment and generosity but I don't want you losing money over something that you do to help us all out.

My crossovers were tested by mtg so they must be correct and he labeled what to connect where so the connections are good.

I hope this doesn't dissuade anyone else. Everyone seems to like them but I'm just not hearing the same thing others do.

Either way these are going to be my speakers because there is no possible way I can afford to put out more money


I'm not going to lose any money, I'll just double check everything and give them to my dad or something.


Have you tested each speaker by itself? Do they both sound the same?
post #7847 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Thank you for the comment and generosity but I don't want you losing money over something that you do to help us all out.

My crossovers were tested by mtg so they must be correct and he labeled what to connect where so the connections are good.

I hope this doesn't dissuade anyone else. Everyone seems to like them but I'm just not hearing the same thing others do.

Either way these are going to be my speakers because there is no possible way I can afford to put out more money


Has your wife, GF, or friends heard them? Do they hear what you are hearing? I have Klipsch Fortes for my fronts and went all out on crossovers-tweeter and Mid squaker upgrades. My old man ears love the sound of them and most likely I would love the sound of your setup. I wish I was closer (Rochester) as I would love to hear them. Heck, I would probably take them off your hands as I have been eyeing the Karma-8's for my rears.
post #7848 of 9857
I am looking into my first diy speaker and BassThatHz gave me this description

Here is how I see it.
There are pros and cons to the design.

Pros:
#1 Their primary advantage is greater SPL without blowing and/or distorting at those levels.
Great for loud hard rock music and movie surprise scenes (the old cat-in-the-closet trick has never sounded more scary biggrin.gif).
If you level matched them or didn't need beyond 100db, the differences would be even smaller. (Which is amazing given the price difference.)

#2 They can be placed wider apart without losing the stereo imagining, in my room they are spaced 18ft apart and could probably do more, where as the B&W's didn't like being more than 9ft apart.

#3 Narrower dispersion window with minimal room interactions (this could be good or bad, depending on how you see it.)

#4 They seems to handle harmonic instruments better: cellos, pianos, xylophones, tubular bells etc.

Cons:
#1 They need treble equalization to sound as good.
Performance in non-active systems will suffer.

I find that the horns are rather insensitive to the higher frequencies, especially above 3khz; (either that or it's struggling to couple with my room well.)
To my ears this causes the SEOS to lose the small details that are typically associated with "Hi-Fi" systems.

This tends to make the SEOS sound thin at lower db's (<90db), but not unpleasant to the average-joe (which is the kicker), and at higher db's it makes the <3khz range excessively out of balance, which the average-joe may see this out-of-balanced-sound as "ramps up to 'loud' quickly", when in fact it's not, it's just out of balance.

In short, "clouded" would be the word I would describe it as.

Once EQ'ed this is not a problem (but it is if you don't).

#2 Even with EQ, not all of the details are fully recovered about ~0.5% loss IMO.

#3 Listeners outside the dispersion window will suffer to a greater extent if a wide positioning cannot be implemented.


Overall:

Once eq'ed, the sound is less fatiguing, more dynamic & louder, and has greater overall transparency than the B&W's (in 99.5% of the cases).

Without eq, I would say that it looses, and is not an enjoyable speaker for music to listen to.
I never thought I'd say that because I despise EQ, and would like to avoid it at all costs. There is probably a way to tweak the XO for pure-analog to achieve the same, beyond me.



"If Bad Sound Were Fatal, Audio Would Be the Leading Cause of Death."
"Things tend to work, until they don't."

BassThatHz Theater Build Thread



maybe you need some eq ? Just trying to help.
post #7849 of 9857
Do they still sound "broken"? Or did they improve based on MTGs cross over work?
post #7850 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

GOt my crossovers for the fusion 8's back and I'm concerned that these just might not be the speakers for me.

I doubt there is any resale value so I am going to stick with them... I just hope my ear gets use to it.

The problems are:
1. I can hear the horn
2. There are lots of details missing
3. harsh noises around the crossover frequency

That's pretty much what I hear without applying EQ.
post #7851 of 9857
You guys are talking about completely different speakers with different waveguides, woofers, compression drivers, and designers. That's the equivalent of comparing Infinity to Polk. They're totally different.

The SEOS is the waveguide, not the speaker.

The Cheap Thrills is a good speaker that uses the waveguide. But it was also the cheapest model. That was it's purpose, and it fit that purpose great.
post #7852 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzed2 View Post

Thanks Nick! Not the least bit discouraged - actually some good learning for me.
My challenge is just in finding the time and quiet, to resume testing.
The short version of what I intend to do

1) Verify the tweeter polarity, by swapping polarity and testing.

2) Then move to the low end roll-off; and make more measurements to make sure my crossover/filters assumptions are correct, and not throwing me for a loop (including DrewMCs suggestions about swapping the signal from the front and right to be sure).

3) And if the roll-off persists >> I will start measuring at the MLP and start changing the position of my mains (could be I have a room cancellation issue). I can also make some measurements by varying the distance of the MLP from the mains).

Do you have another speaker you can try in same method ?

You might want to verify its not in the signal or signal chain, or measuring method.
post #7853 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Thank you for the comment and generosity but I don't want you losing money over something that you do to help us all out.

My crossovers were tested by mtg so they must be correct and he labeled what to connect where so the connections are good.

I hope this doesn't dissuade anyone else. Everyone seems to like them but I'm just not hearing the same thing others do.

Either way these are going to be my speakers because there is no possible way I can afford to put out more money

It is very possible that at some point a miswiring caused you to blow one, or both, of your tweeters.

This would explain harshness and strange noises. As to the apparent reduced detail, this could easily be a function of neutrally voiced speakers - i noticed you were coming from some JTR speakers that tend to have very forward presentation. Adjustong to neutral speakers takes some time. But having damaged tweeter(s) does not help. Have you checked your speakers individially in mono?

Beyond that, i would be looking at internal bracing, driver isolation, internal fibrefill, and extensional damping of panels.

And this nonsense about ruler flat speakers needing eq is just that. Any good designer incorporates necessary equalization into the crossover itself.
Edited by Eternal Velocity - 8/30/13 at 6:03am
post #7854 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Velocity View Post

It is very possible that at some point a miswiring caused you to blow one, or both, of your tweeters.

This would explain harshness and strange noises. As to the apparent reduced detail, this could easily be a function of neutrally voiced speakers - i noticed you were coming from some JTR speakers that tend to have very forward presentation. Adjustong to neutral speakers takes some time. But having damaged tweeter(s) does not help. Have you checked your speakers individially in mono?

Beyond that, i would be looking at internal bracing, driver isolation, internal fibrefill, and extensional damping of panels.

And this nonsense about ruler flat speakers needing eq is just that. Any good designer incorporates necessary equalization into the crossover itself.

I don't use the exact speaker design that Goonstopher does, but I can tell you the SEOS-12/DNA-360 is a much smoother combination than the coaxial in the JTR T8's that I had. I compared my TD12M, SEOS-12/DNA-360's to my JTR's in the same room, same location. Had both of them together for several weeks.
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post #7855 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I don't use the exact speaker design that Goonstopher does, but I can tell you the SEOS-12/DNA-360 is a much smoother combination than the coaxial in the JTR T8's that I had. I compared my TD12M, SEOS-12/DNA-360's to my JTR's in the same room, same location. Had both of them together for several weeks.
Hey Mike
This is a good chance for me to ask you this question:
Are you referring to the T8s before the CD change to BMS (2011) ?
I ask b/c the older models (early 2011 & before) had a Selenium CD that was O.K. but still not much.
The newer models are a lot smoother speaker clarity wise. Older models are known for coming off a little harsh in certain situations.
I am matching my 2012 T12 fronts with a combination of SEOS 12/4550 & TD12M for the surrounds. I expect them to perform Very close to the same.
Chris
post #7856 of 9857
For anyone considering building their own speakers. I recommend including into the price of admission into DIY speakers the cost of the UMM-6 from PE or better yet for another $10 the calibrated version from CSL . Measurement software is free ware in numerous different forms so that won't cost you anything.

Especially if your new to this and assembling your own crossovers, measurement should be considered mandatory IMHO.
post #7857 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Do they still sound "broken"? Or did they improve based on MTGs cross over work?

They sound the same pretty much. The "tunnel" effect is a little less sounds just sound closer in the tunnel, they are still in it though (trying to explain the noise/sound)

A girl was over and she goes: "They sound worse than the TV, whats wrong? It doesn't sound right, like low fidelity"

This was coming from someone who knows nothing about speakers.

The biggest problem is that speech is VERY hard to understand and some mid range feels missing, like something is suppose to be there and just isn't
What is there sounds like it's coming from a megephone or someone talking through a toilet paper roll.

Another big problem - The thread on one of the dna 205's won't take a bolt to hold onto the horn. 3 of 4 bolts (in 2 speakers) went in fine. The 4th bolt worked on a dna 350 but the threads on the non-working dna 205 look different from the sides that are working. I'm stuck unable to test out the second speaker because of this and may need to buy a replacement dna 205 for a speaker that might be broken even when it is "fixed"
post #7858 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post


Hey Mike
This is a good chance for me to ask you this question:
Are you referring to the T8s before the CD change to BMS (2011) ?
I ask b/c the older models (early 2011 & before) had a Selenium CD that was O.K. but still not much.
The newer models are a lot smoother speaker clarity wise. Older models are known for coming off a little harsh in certain situations.
I am matching my 2012 T12 fronts with a combination of SEOS 12/4550 & TD12M for the surrounds. I expect them to perform Very close to the same.
Chris

Correct. My JTR's were before the 2011 change. The DNA-360 in the SEOS-12 was much smoother. Not subtle, huge difference. Interested in hearing how you find the SEOS-12/DNA-360 with TD12M compared to the newer T12.
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post #7859 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

A girl was over and she goes: "They sound worse than the TV, whats wrong? It doesn't sound right, like low fidelity"

This was coming from someone who knows nothing about speakers.

The biggest problem is that speech is VERY hard to understand and some mid range feels missing, like something is suppose to be there and just isn't
What is there sounds like it's coming from a megephone or someone talking through a toilet paper roll.


Goonstopher, I think it's time to just send the stuff back. Don't you think so? I've offered to take everything back a couple times now.

From the get go you said you didn't know how to wire up a crossover and that they were "trashed". My guess is that you wired something up wrong and fried the CD's. I test every compression driver before shipping them and make sure they are good. I asked you to send some stuff back but you told me you threw crossover parts in the garbage already. Why continue to talk about how bad they sound, knowing that it's not normal and probably assembly error? Especially when there are people here offering to fix it for you.

Well over 50 of those kits are out there and being compared to speakers costing 5x more with good results and no complaints, even at that big audio get together a few months ago. You said they sound bad, and your friend says they sound worse than TV speakers? At what point is it obvious that something went wrong when you were assembling the crossovers or the CD's? It won't matter how many more people hear them if something got messed up from the very beginning.

If you had asked me to assemble the entire speaker for you because you couldn't do it, but still wanted to hear them, I would have. At some point you have to realize that this isn't normal and that you had problems during assembly that probably messed something up. But again, there's still people willing to help fix things.

I said you could send them back and I would refund your money, even if you messed up the CD's or didn't have all the parts. But you said earlier that you will just keep them and hope to get used to it? I don't really understand why.
Edited by Erich H - 8/30/13 at 9:26am
post #7860 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Goonstopher, I think it's time to just send the stuff back. Don't you think so? I've offered to take everything back a couple times now.

From the get go you said you didn't know how to wire up a crossover and that they were "trashed". My guess is that you wired something up wrong and fried the CD's. I test every compression driver before shipping them and make sure they are good. I asked you to send some stuff back but you told me you threw crossover parts in the garbage already. Why continue to talk about how bad they sound, knowing that it's not normal and possibly assembly error? Especially when there are people here offering to fix it for you.

Well over 50 of those kits are out there and being compared to speakers costing 5x more with good results and no complaints, even at that big audio get together a few months ago. You said they sound bad, and your friend says they sound worse than TV speakers? At what point is it obvious that something went wrong when you were assembling the crossovers or the CD's? It won't matter how many more people hear them if something got messed up from the very beginning.

If you had asked me to assemble the entire speaker for you because you couldn't do it, but still wanted to hear them, I would have. At some point you have to realize that this isn't normal and that you had problems during assembly that probably messed something up. But there's still people willing to help fix things.

+1!
Goon, why don't you accept some personal responsibility for your screwed up speakers.confused.gif. Erich has been incredibly accommodating including accepting to take your self inflicted mess back. So... please send the speakers back and quit littering the forum with your whining posts.
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