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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 267

post #7981 of 9844
Thread Starter 
"Some of those are more costly and I'm having trouble figuring out what is better, versus what is just more expensive?"

that is the point that tux and erich have been trying to make--to the extent that they are all good values, performance generally is increasing with price. the only exception might be the td15m and 2226 where price and performance may be backwards.

for example, the delta 12a is good, but xmax is relatively small.

up from there is the delta pro 12a, higher xmax, higher price.

up from there is the definimax 12ho, which allows for more of a full range with an even larger coil, and includes a shorting ring for lowering distortion.

up from there the td12m with copper sleeve over the pole for ultra low distortion.

floating around somewhere in between the delta pro 12a and the td12m is the deltalite ii 2512 with the neodymium motor which allows for higher motor force using less coil, which gives lower normalized inductance and a cleaner midrange and a little more attack.
post #7982 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Some of those are more costly and I'm having trouble figuring out what is better, versus what is just more expensive?"

that is the point that tux and erich have been trying to make--to the extent that they are all good values, performance generally is increasing with price. the only exception might be the td15m and 2226 where price and performance may be backwards.

for example, the delta 12a is good, but xmax is relatively small.

up from there is the delta pro 12a, higher xmax, higher price.

up from there is the definimax 12ho, which allows for more of a full range with an even larger coil, and includes a shorting ring for lowering distortion.

up from there the td12m with copper sleeve over the pole for ultra low distortion.

floating around somewhere in between the delta pro 12a and the td12m is the deltalite ii 2512 with the neodymium motor which allows for higher motor force using less coil, which gives lower normalized inductance and a cleaner midrange and a little more attack.

I have been trying to decide that for quite a while. If I do decide to go with the TD15M, it would be nice to have them available when I order the rest of the parts. This has me re-thinking my build again.

So many good choices here. the Deltalite ii 2512 looks awesome, and strangely more impressive than the 2515.
The Definimax 12HO is also a nice choice and it doesn't look like it sacrifices much for the cost difference between it and the 2512

If you were shooting for 2ch Music, and low end extension without a sub, which would you choose?

Do you think that the cost difference between the AE TD12M / TD15M and the others here, (About 100-150 Each) is worth the extra price?
I can tell you that the AE's "Look" better, (To me) but that has nothing to do with how the actually perform. So all I have are charts, and numbers...

- Max
post #7983 of 9844
Thread Starter 
"If you were shooting for 2ch Music, and low end extension without a sub, which would you choose?"

haha...the td12x. :-)

"Do you think that the cost difference between the AE TD12M / TD15M and the others here, (About 100-150 Each) is worth the extra price?"

that is something that each person has to decide for themselves.

it does have lower distortion than many other drivers.

https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se

"the Deltalite ii 2512 looks awesome, and strangely more impressive than the 2515"

agree. they seemed to have put the ball on the ground with the 2515.
Edited by LTD02 - 9/17/13 at 8:30pm
post #7984 of 9844
Which build on diysound uses ae td12m ? Not tempest , sentinel , zephyr ... does this woofer replace the standard woofer in one of these builds or is it a different build altogether ?
post #7985 of 9844
^ That build is 'off the grid' so to speak. It was designed by Bill Waslo, see my sig.
post #7986 of 9844
Thread Starter 
"If you were shooting for 2ch Music, and low end extension without a sub, which would you choose?"

sorry. among the "stock model" 12" drivers, for full range, i would choose the definimax 12ho, and go ported.
post #7987 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"If you were shooting for 2ch Music, and low end extension without a sub, which would you choose?"

haha...the td12x. :-)

"Do you think that the cost difference between the AE TD12M / TD15M and the others here, (About 100-150 Each) is worth the extra price?"

that is something that each person has to decide for themselves.

it does have lower distortion than many other drivers.

https://sites.google.com/site/drivervault/driver-measurements/tang-band-75-1558se

"...and strangely more impressive than the 2515"

agree. they seemed to have put the ball on the ground with the 2515.
Not so much dropped the ball, but it looks like the 2512 was built first, and then the 15 was a "let's make it a 15 now..."
This with an SEOS12 has got to be one of the best price / performance models out there, IMO.
Paired with the flat-packs,I would say that it would be insanely hard to beat in regards of bang for the buck.

I'm checking out those measurements, and opened up WinISD for the first time in a while, time to think about box sizes.
Just noticed that you have the TD15X measurements at that previous link as well. I'll have to compare them to the TD12M as I was just noticing all the different variants, TD15/M/S/H/X
I have lots of reading to do this week, lol. It's been a while since I've checked these specs out, but some of the biggest differences I see are the FS differences between the TD15M / X
Ahh, back to my design thread.

- Max
post #7988 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"If you were shooting for 2ch Music, and low end extension without a sub, which would you choose?"

sorry. among the "stock model" 12" drivers, for full range, i would choose the definimax 12ho, and go ported.

I may have to get a set, while trying to figure out what I am going to build. I'll then have the compression drivers, waveguides (if I stick with 12's for my specific build) and a good basis for direct comparison.
Then I would all ready have surrounds once I finished the mains... Wait a minute, I must have been reading the SEOSR thread too much.

That or the Fusion-15 "Sentinel" may be a good choice at about the same price.
Then I would have a test box if I decide to go with a TD15M/S Hmmm...

3 years ago I never thought that I would have to say: There are way too many, really really good, SEOS speaker designs. Muchless most of those in kit form, with boxes.
I just need to order a set all ready.
post #7989 of 9844
Thread Starter 
there were some reports of problems with the td12s, so i can't recommend that one anymore and neither do i want to discuss it any further. it is what it is.

"This [deltalite ii 2512] with an SEOS12 has got to be one of the best price / performance models out there, IMO.
Paired with the flat-packs,I would say that it would be insanely hard to beat in regards of bang for the buck."

i agree. an mtm version could be interesting as well as a member of the seos-reference line. :-)



maybe with 15 degree trapezoidal cabinet sides? hhmmm...

post #7990 of 9844
I finished a 6" MTM design not too long ago, actually two sets of 6" designs (TM & MTM) with another set possibly on its way. Anyway the "Nicer" 6" MTM can kick some ass, 117+ dB with enough power and an 80 Hz crossover it sounds really great as well. I feel it is damn close to being on par with the AE designs I have done in terms of SQ.
post #7991 of 9844
Same price for the pair of deltalite ii 2512's as a single AE TD12/15
That may just be the breaking point.

I had scared myself out of MTM's that big, and now that is an interesting option.
That would be 6 total drivers for the L/C/R's. 10 for a full 5.1 of these... That's awesome.

SEOS Reference
This is the first I've heard of this.
post #7992 of 9844
T
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

there were some reports of problems with the td12s, so i can't recommend that one anymore and neither do i want to discuss it any further. it is what it is.

"This [deltalite ii 2512] with an SEOS12 has got to be one of the best price / performance models out there, IMO.
Paired with the flat-packs,I would say that it would be insanely hard to beat in regards of bang for the buck."

i agree. an mtm version could be interesting as well as a member of the seos-reference line. :-)



maybe with 15 degree trapezoidal cabinet sides? hhmmm...


Looks like.a jtr noessis . Would love to see. It !
post #7993 of 9844
Thread Starter 
actually the inspiration goes back quite a ways in time to one of the last large form factor studio monitors...the jbl dms-1.

a ported version would be about the same size too. :-)

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/dms-1.pdf

good read: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v3n01.pdf



looks like it was introduced in 1995. i thought it was earlier than that actually.




.
Edited by LTD02 - 9/17/13 at 11:45pm
post #7994 of 9844
Thread Starter 
"SEOS Reference
This is the first I've heard of this."

that is because it just popped out of my head tonight and i just made the logo in ms word (well, added "reference" to the already nice looking logo that i had nothing to do with). :-)





"Same price for the pair of deltalite ii 2512's as a single AE TD12/15
That may just be the breaking point."

that's the thing. distortion scales with spl fairly linearly. two drivers (and power) give +6db. so all other thing equal, if you raise the power to the single unit to match levels with the dual unit, distortion on the single unit will be 12db higher than on the dual driver system.

so 12db less distortion at any given listening level and all kinds of headroom.

the only problem is actually mentioned by floyd toole in that such a system can sound too clean so you tend to play it too loud. :-)




.
Edited by LTD02 - 9/17/13 at 11:52pm
post #7995 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

there were some reports of problems with the td12s, so i can't recommend that one anymore and neither do i want to discuss it any further. it is what it is.

"
Just curious... could you lead me to the reports of TD12 problems?

Thanks,
Roy
post #7996 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

I finished a 6" MTM design not too long ago, actually two sets of 6" designs (TM & MTM) with another set possibly on its way. Anyway the "Nicer" 6" MTM can kick some ass, 117+ dB with enough power and an 80 Hz crossover it sounds really great as well. I feel it is damn close to being on par with the AE designs I have done in terms of SQ.
Where can I find more about this?

I was interested in possibly doing a MTM with 6's or 8's but never was able to decide which would have enough kick for me. Cant help but want a dual 15 in main again. But something small is what I would like to try and do instead.
post #7997 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

I finished a 6" MTM design not too long ago, actually two sets of 6" designs (TM & MTM) with another set possibly on its way. Anyway the "Nicer" 6" MTM can kick some ass, 117+ dB with enough power and an 80 Hz crossover it sounds really great as well. I feel it is damn close to being on par with the AE designs I have done in terms of SQ.

which WG did you use for that 6"
im interested in seeing it
post #7998 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post


that is because it just popped out of my head tonight and i just made the logo in ms word (well, added "reference" to the already nice looking logo that i had nothing to do with). :-)

Believe it or not, there has been talk about a Reference Line. But they do get expensive pretty fast. One of the goals was that each design could be used full range if needed.
post #7999 of 9844
Sick looking speaker mock up LTD!
post #8000 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Some of those are more costly and I'm having trouble figuring out what is better, versus what is just more expensive?"

that is the point that tux and erich have been trying to make--to the extent that they are all good values, performance generally is increasing with price. the only exception might be the td15m and 2226 where price and performance may be backwards.

for example, the delta 12a is good, but xmax is relatively small.

up from there is the delta pro 12a, higher xmax, higher price.

up from there is the definimax 12ho, which allows for more of a full range with an even larger coil, and includes a shorting ring for lowering distortion.

up from there the td12m with copper sleeve over the pole for ultra low distortion.

floating around somewhere in between the delta pro 12a and the td12m is the deltalite ii 2512 with the neodymium motor which allows for higher motor force using less coil, which gives lower normalized inductance and a cleaner midrange and a little more attack.

Sounds like deltalite ii 2512 might be a winner but I don't see a kit for that ???

What would such a build cost ?
post #8001 of 9844
there is a deltalite kit
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/other/seos-deltalite-kit.html


unless you guys are talking about something else, it is early ill admit and i have not had much coffee
post #8002 of 9844
Cool. Thanks. Not sure how I missed that.

How about a dual 12" of the $79 12" vs a single $149 Deltalite ii ??? Nearly the same cost in drivers- is two better than 1 ?
post #8003 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Believe it or not, there has been talk about a Reference Line. But they do get expensive pretty fast. One of the goals was that each design could be used full range if needed.

Would love that !!! Between you, chop, and tux I cannot decide what I want to build this winter.
post #8004 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Where can I find more about this?

I was interested in possibly doing a MTM with 6's or 8's but never was able to decide which would have enough kick for me. Cant help but want a dual 15 in main again. But something small is what I would like to try and do instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

which WG did you use for that 6"
im interested in seeing it


I have not started the thread yet. The Nicer MTM / TM uses the Peerless 6.5" HDS woofers and the DNA-205 in the EOS-6. The "Value" designs uses Peerless SDS woofers and the DNA-150 in a new waveguide that is a 6" screw on model which looks a bit more like the EOS-8 but smaller. These may end up being Fusion-6 and Karma-6 kits.

Here is a picture of the Fusion-6 MTM:
post #8005 of 9844
very nice,
post #8006 of 9844
I thought I'd join in the fun. In the process of upgrading my HTPC, I was inspired to upgrade my HT speakers (they are great, but were designed for a smaller room and more-so for SACD/DVD-A. Now that I have a mostly dedicated HT room, I've been itching to upgrade the speakers. The after modeling the room, the SEOS12's were found to be too big, so the EOS 8's were eyeballed. Then along came the SEOS 10's. So, I've been playing with the idea of using them, and for me, that means modeling a design in Rhino.

So I envisioned the SEOS 10 version of the SEOS 12 Fusion Pure. I also wanted to replace my big sub cube (15" Tumult/ 2x18PR) with a pair of sealed Ultimax 12s (saves space how I intend to use them). This is what I have come up with so far as L/R. The center would be the TM without the sub, set right below the TV.

post #8007 of 9844
Thread Starter 
"Believe it or not, there has been talk about a Reference Line. But they do get expensive pretty fast. One of the goals was that each design could be used full range if needed."

second woofer, little more for the cab wood, and shipping, right? or is there something else significant that i'm missing? maybe an upgrade to routed baffle for rear mounting the drivers?

one key would be to get the c.d. up in the air. this one is scaled to 42" listener ear height and would have about 5 cubic feet or so of volume to play with. that should allow quite a few full ranger options. personally, i think there are enough full range options on the market and that the need is more for the higher sensitivity mid-rangers (for lack of a better term)--those with tunings in the 40hz ballpark. with a pair of deltalite ii 2512's, such a floorstander would have about 98-100 db sensitivity in the midbass, so even a 100 watt avr could pound out about 120db.

and in mdf :-)

just something to keep in mind if/when the time is right...
Edited by LTD02 - 9/18/13 at 11:41am
post #8008 of 9844
If we are talking MTM, what high efficiency mid-woofers would cross over with a CD well and have proper extension for HT (~20hz)
post #8009 of 9844
Ive often pondered a pair of 2226Js in a MTM config with a seos 15..... Those can be found on the bay for ~150 each used. Run parallel for a 8ohm load.....

How how would you deal with the CTC distance of the woofers? A pair of 12s is like 18" CTC with the 6" SEOS in between right?

Active?

2.5way?
post #8010 of 9844
I think with big 15" MTM's you might run into the problem of the CD being a bottleneck, both distortion and output. I would like to see how the distortion of the BA-750 does compared to the DNA-360 since on some new measurements I have taken with the TD15M/360/SEOS-12 design I noticed distortion from the CD rises quite a bit with the 1200hz crossover point, quite a bit higher then the distortion levels of the TD15M. I was really pushing it hard the other day and noticed it starts to get pretty harsh once past 120dB with that low a crossover.

Using smaller woofers 8-10" and a slightly higher crossover would probably be the best way to get the most clean output from an MTM configuration.
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