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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 271

post #8101 of 9857
That is an idea. I wonder whether my neighbors will appreciate my efforts. wink.gif
post #8102 of 9857
Good speaker designers spend a lot of time getting the final designs to test flat. But they know once any speakers are placed in a listening area, it all changes based on that specific room.

Take one of your speakers into a difference shaped room, put it over in the corner aimed towards the middle of the room and send it about 100 watts of power and walk around the room. You might have massive amounts of bass with the low end nice and flat with dips somewhere else. That's just what the room does to any speaker.

I have a single Fusion-8 on my desk top and it's tuned around 60hz if I recall. If I stand all the way in the back of the room, about 3' from the corner it literally sounds like I have a subwoofer in the room somewhere. It does the same thing with my Polk RTi's in the same room.
post #8103 of 9857
Thread Starter 
"Is it a matter of public record how these boxes are tuned? I must say i have a hard time modeling the delta pro to do -3db at 37hz i two cft confused.gif It seems to like a much higher tuning, right under 60hz, but that would never work for full range."

remember winisd is 2pi space model and actual rooms will have gain depending on how close to a wall or a corner they are placed.

"Not sure if this the right place, but just how much "toe in" recommended for the Tempests?"

try cross-firing them in front of the center main listening position.

there are a couple of articles either linked to or pdf attached to the very first post explaining why.
post #8104 of 9857
Erich.

Thanks for posting the original data. It looks a whole lot better. Can you provide some insight as to how these were measured?


LTD02.

That is true. The room interaction is very complex and not easily predicted. How ever in front of at solid wall there should be enough gain to bring back up the bass. Thats also kind of the the reason I asked Erich for a little info on how these were measured.
post #8105 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post



I have no idea what the end price would be right now, or if it will ever get done.

The BMS, B&C, and DNA are extremely good models and they all sound really really good. That's why they're used by so many companies. The DNA is the flattest of the 3 and comes so close to this new model, that it's not a huge difference after the crossover. There certainly would be no need to upgrade to this model if the design used any of those first 3 CD's.

As Jeff has mentioned a couple times, the Definimax and the Delta Pro are extremely close. Eventually I will likely make the Fusion-12 have the standard Delta option, or the Definimax upgrade option.

There are no internal changes coming to the current speakers, they're already very good. The Alpha line will be finished off eventually though. My thought was to possibly use the DNA-350 for the Karma series, the DNA-360 for the Fusion series, and then possibly use this new driver for the Alpha series. But the Definimax model you have won't change at all.

It would make some sense to have this new driver used with the Alpha's because most new woofers in the Alpha series will be quite expensive. Personally I would stick with the Fusion series because I know how good they are for the price. The Alpha line will be for people that just really want that top model and don't mind the extra cost. I'm not really one of those people, but I fully understand why there's a need in audio. Whether the cost difference is worth it or not is up to that person.

I can say that the Karma line and Fusion line are pretty much complete. No changes are needed. The Alpha line will be getting a 15" woofer with the 15" SEOS. There will eventually be an Alpha-10, and the Alpha-12 will likely be changed up. But there's no need to wait, or second guess your choice because the Alpha line will quite a bit more expensive. And I can assure you, there are no bad models listed. Anything that doesn't test great for it's price point doesn't get posted. There have been some that didn't make the cut. If it's listed, it's really good for the budget you have. The component prices are the main differences between each series. Just like Polk or JBL would do. smile.gif

Erich, I would like to purchase 3 Alpha's with the 15" woofer and 15" SEOS. I would also like to purchase 3 "Fully Loaded" compression drivers should you choose to move ahead on that front. Do you have a time frame yet on when the 15" Alpha will be offered?
post #8106 of 9857
I will be getting parts for the Fully Loaded compression drivers. I'm actually suppose to have a rush order on those sample parts arriving this week (only about 4). There's a good chance I'll be assembling some of these compression drivers to keep prices lower, but we'll see. The parts will be arriving with the SEOS models which should be ready to ship here in a few weeks. I just wired the last payments for those 2 days ago.

There won't be many of the Fully Loaded models available due to their cost right now. The two SEOS models were quite expensive to have done at the same time. But things are almost finished, so all will be good. I can always try to get more of the CD's later if needed.
post #8107 of 9857
Nevermind...
Edited by JohnDean - 9/24/13 at 12:27pm
post #8108 of 9857
Erich, thank you for the update on the "Fully Loaded" compression driver. As I mentioned I would like to buy 3 but I would like to purchase them in conjunction with everything else needed to build 3 of the new Alpha's with the 15" woofer and 15" SEOS. Are you planning on offering complete kits for the 15" model just as you do currently for 12" Zephyr? If yes, do you have any insight yet as to when the new kit will be available?
post #8109 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Believe it or not, there has been talk about a Reference Line. But they do get expensive pretty fast. One of the goals was that each design could be used full range if needed.

Erich, I assumed when I read your post previously about a reference line that you were referring to the Alpha's but I realized I may have assumed in error. Are their plans for a reference model(s)? If yes, are they currently in the mulling stage or actively under development, and if under development, when might they see the light of day?

Hopeful,
post #8110 of 9857
A reference line would be awesome!! I would be in for three from the git-go.
post #8111 of 9857
You can also model the room effects

http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/reflection/rrc.htm
post #8112 of 9857
I moved Tempests to another room and finally was able to get them to show some bass. They are 5 feet away from the back wall and 7.5 feet away from the sides.
281870

I also put Klipsch back into the same spot where Tempests had problems with bass and took measurements. Here is the graph:
281871

Klipsch actually manages to show better bass in the same spot so it is not really my room. Why Tempest are so sensitive to their placements? Is it because of one large woofer vs multiple smaller woofers in the klipsch?
post #8113 of 9857
Amo76, are you sure the Klipsch are in the same spot and the mic is in the same spot? It's not so much the room as the place in the room. That maybe wasn't explained before.
post #8114 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by amo76 View Post

Is it because of one large woofer vs multiple smaller woofers in the klipsch?
I bet this is part of it. Looks from your pictures lie the floor bounce might have been coinciding with the rear wall reflection (same frequency cancellation) - maybe the side walls too. With smaller woofers spread out and closer to the floor, the floor bounce is mitigated.
post #8115 of 9857
Your charts are hard to compare because the two you just posted are from 2 different rooms and different speakers. And your Tempest graph from yesterday wasn't taken with the same settings that you used today with the Klipsch in the same room.

In my basement theater, the second row had a decent bass spike. But if you leaned forward about 1.5', the bass was nearly gone. Are you sure everything was exactly in the same spot, including the mic? Because it doesn't take much distance to change the bass response.

Most speakers are sensitive to their placement when it comes to bass output. Just like subwoofers.
Edited by Erich H - 9/24/13 at 8:04pm
post #8116 of 9857
Aren't tempest users using subs anyways? I'm not sure I'd use the tempest below 80, 60 at the lowest.
post #8117 of 9857
Klipsch and mic were pretty much in the same position (+/- 5-10 inches). I can try to take another set of measurements tomorrow with mic and speakers in the same position.

I had to try 4 positions with measurements before I was able to hear bass from Tempest in the other room.
post #8118 of 9857
How much stuffing did you put in them. Maybe you are getting a sealed response. I do that often (on purpose). I stuff them to the brim and basically end up with a sealed box. But I've built it ported so if I need I just pull out some stuffing to "activate" the ports. Could be what you've done inadvertently. Takes quite a bit though. Or just enough in front of the ports.
post #8119 of 9857
I haven't stuff them at all. I just lined sides with 1.5inch eggcrate foam.
post #8120 of 9857
The 1st graph looks really good to 50hz. So it is seems like the floor bounce or other room reflection. I don't think these has any bsc so it should really be place against the rear wall.
post #8121 of 9857
Honestly amo76 I have a feeling you might be looking for something that isn't there. Over at parts express there is a thread about the Definimax where Jeff B. participates. As far as i can tell, it is clearly stated that the Delta Pro rolls off faster than the Definimax, even if tuned low. Also it looks like the response graphs for the Definimax and the Delta Pro got mixed up somehow. At least the graph posted by Erich in #8096 look almost exactly like the graph for the Definimax posted by Jeff B over at parts express. Only it is raised a little in the bass region. Every little nook and cranny is in the exact same place with only the amplitude a little higher on the Delta Pro graph. I think you should read the thread. I think it give a little insight into the thoughts going in to these speakers.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?235069-So-who-s-going-to-build-Jeff-Bagby-s-Definimax-12-SEOS-Econowave




Ill repost the other graphs from parts-express for reference.

G44
G44

As others have all ready mentioned I suggest moving the speakers closer to the wall. That should raise the bass a bit.
post #8122 of 9857
Thread Starter 
"Aren't tempest users using subs anyways? I'm not sure I'd use the tempest below 80, 60 at the lowest."

that is how they are designed...to be run with subs. i don't recall anybody referring to the tempests as "full range" because they aren't. they are designed to have high efficiency in the range from about 60/80hz and up depending on room and that they do quite well.



erich, you really should gather up all the commentary on the speakers and get it on the website. :-)

from jeff b.:

Then I decided to design something at a little lower price point that had a bit more punch to it. After playing around with different drivers I went with the Eminence Delta Pro 12-A after several recommendations. To my surprise this driver really performed well beyond its price. It's more efficient than the definimax, so I used that extra efficiency to shift the tonal balance a little more toward the low end since the Delta Pro looked to only reach about 50Hz. The speaker really surprised me then and gave me one of the best sounding high efficiency (98 dB) speakers I have ever heard in my life. If I didn't have so many speakers already (and one set is a fairly high efficiency set of towers with Focal drivers and Scanspeak tweeter) I would seriously consider building a furniture grade set of cabinets and living with a pair of Tempests as my personal reference high efficiency speakers for many years to come. I still may. They way-out-performed my expectations, and I don't blubber over all of the speakers I design, because all of them have compromises, but these really sound great in my opinion.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?236824-Fusion-12-Tempest
post #8123 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by splotten View Post

Honestly amo76 I have a feeling you might be looking for something that isn't there. Over at parts express there is a thread about the Definimax where Jeff B. participates. As far as i can tell, it is clearly stated that the Delta Pro rolls off faster than the Definimax, even if tuned low. Also it looks like the response graphs for the Definimax and the Delta Pro got mixed up somehow. At least the graph posted by Erich in #8096 look almost exactly like the graph for the Definimax posted by Jeff B over at parts express. Only it is raised a little in the bass region. Every little nook and cranny is in the exact same place with only the amplitude a little higher on the Delta Pro graph. I think you should read the thread. I think it give a little insight into the thoughts going in to these speakers.





Those 2 graphs look similar from about 1300hz on up because they use the same exact CD, same box, and nearly the same crossover. But they are a little different from that point on down because of the woofer change.

It's been discussed in this thread that they are nearly identical speakers because the woofers are nearly identical. Some people wanted a shorting ring in the Definimax.
Edited by Erich H - 9/25/13 at 5:20am
post #8124 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post


erich, you really should gather up all the commentary on the speakers and get it on the website. :-)

from jeff b.:

Then I decided to design something at a little lower price point that had a bit more punch to it. After playing around with different drivers I went with the Eminence Delta Pro 12-A after several recommendations. To my surprise this driver really performed well beyond its price. It's more efficient than the definimax, so I used that extra efficiency to shift the tonal balance a little more toward the low end since the Delta Pro looked to only reach about 50Hz. The speaker really surprised me then and gave me one of the best sounding high efficiency (98 dB) speakers I have ever heard in my life. If I didn't have so many speakers already (and one set is a fairly high efficiency set of towers with Focal drivers and Scanspeak tweeter) I would seriously consider building a furniture grade set of cabinets and living with a pair of Tempests as my personal reference high efficiency speakers for many years to come. I still may. They way-out-performed my expectations, and I don't blubber over all of the speakers I design, because all of them have compromises, but these really sound great in my opinion.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?236824-Fusion-12-Tempest


That quote from Jeff was right after he designed the speakers. But after listening to them for a while, he said it would be okay to tune both models to the same frequency because that's what he ended up doing in the end. And that's why the response curves look very similar as well.

It's been said many times that they are nearly the same speaker. And when someone asks me, I clearly tell them that. I've also mentioned that the Alpha model will eventually just be an extra option under the Tempest.
Quote:
erich, you really should gather up all the commentary on the speakers and get it on the website. :-)


I'm now packaging things for at least 3 hours per day, every day. After the SEOS was here, hat was my offer in all of this before needing to hire someone. I've asked for website help many times, and also asked for help with write ups. The info I post is the info I was given, or at least the most current info I have.
post #8125 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by amo76 View Post

Klipsch and mic were pretty much in the same position (+/- 5-10 inches). I can try to take another set of measurements tomorrow with mic and speakers in the same position.

I had to try 4 positions with measurements before I was able to hear bass from Tempest in the other room.

5-10 inches difference in mic position alone is a LOT

Quote:
Originally Posted by amo76 View Post

I haven't stuff them at all. I just lined sides with 1.5inch eggcrate foam.

Lightly stuffing with polyfill might extend your bass response slightly, I recommend that anyways. Also make sure the ports are not obstructed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amo76 View Post

I moved Tempests to another room and finally was able to get them to show some bass. They are 5 feet away from the back wall and 7.5 feet away from the sides.
281870

I also put Klipsch back into the same spot where Tempests had problems with bass and took measurements. Here is the graph:
281871

Klipsch actually manages to show better bass in the same spot so it is not really my room. Why Tempest are so sensitive to their placements? Is it because of one large woofer vs multiple smaller woofers in the klipsch?

I don't see anything wrong with the Tempest response. It is pretty close to the published spec. The major dips you see I believe are room related.

Your getting confused moving speakers around and measuring with different methods etc.

First, to evaluate speakers only, you should measure in the exact same way. Moving an inch or two can make a huge difference so you want to keep the mic in exact same position etc.

Second, evaluate one thing at a time. If you measure up close, your evaluating just the speakers as best you can. If you measure at the LP(12') your introducing more room effects and evaluating how the speaker interacts with the room. Yes, every speaker interacts with the room a little differently so evaluate one thing at a time, Speaker or Speaker/Room interaction.

It seems like your very interested in the bass response of the tempest. Try this to evaluate the bass extension only:

  • Measure at 1M
  • Mic positioned midway between the woofer center and port opening
  • Measure from 20-600Hz
  • Approximating a ground plane measurement here would be useful here but if your not comfortable with that, place away from as many boundaries as you can.

The tempest is touted to have a strong bass drum kick. Remember a bass drum kick has a fundamental bottom of approximately 60-80Hz so that just means they are authoritative throught that range. They are not full range speaakers based on what i see in the measurements. I wouldn't use them lower than 60-80 myself but that assumes cable subwoofers to take over. The higher the better IMO depending on how they integrate.
post #8126 of 9857
Erich I’m not trying to blame you and really appreciate everything that you are doing for DIY community. The reason I started this conversation was to confirm that the speakers I built are up to spec and don’t have any bugs. When I mentioned that I’m not hearing bass from Tempest multiple people came out and blamed my room which led me to my quest to find a place in my home where I can get them to play 40hz+/-3db. Based on what I have seen so far and comments from LTD02 and NicksHitachi they shouldn’t be called full-range speakers and spec on the site should probably be updated to (50/60hz-18khz +/- 3db). I got a bit disappointed since I was expecting them to be able to play full-range with an authoritative bass in 40hz based on the spec published on the product’s page.

I think they are great speakers and sound really good when crossed-over to a sub at 80hz. I’m going to stop obsessing about the bass and just put them back to the living room and enjoy them. They are heavy suckers and it is a pain in b… to move them around the house.
post #8127 of 9857
I realize you're not blaming anyone. You're comparing 2 speakers. But each in a different room, or different mic settings. So there's no way for us to accurately say anything.

The Tempest can be used full range. Some guys might think full range is 20hz on up, some say 40hz on up. The Overnight Sensations are considered full range and they're tuned higher than the Tempests with a little 4" woofer, but I don't advertise them to be "full range". I posted the graph for the speaker here and on the site and that's all I can do. That's an accurate response of the speaker. Some guys get even lower output because of their room, some don't.

Of course they will be be better with subwoofers, that holds true with most speakers, and I tell people that. When you and I were discussing these speakers through email before you purchased them, you said they were going to be used for watching movies. And that you're crossing to a subwoofer. You thought I was trying to talk you out of buying them because I told you that your Klipsch were probably decent. I said that if you didn't need any extra volume from the speakers you currently had, then your main upgrade will be dynamics and a wider sweet spot. And they will give you more mid bass kick. And they will. I assure you that the 12" Delta Pro will give you more bass output than the three 5.25" woofers in the Klipsch tower. If not, then they probably aren't set up right.

As someone above mentioned, they aren't designed to sit out in the room. Move them back closer to the walls, toe them in like they should be, and feed them some power.

You're using subwoofers, so I'm not sure why the debate over whether they are 37hz or 40hz matters. Once in a different room, the low end response could be 30hz, or 45hz. It's room dependent at that point. The speaker itself is what the designer tested and the graph I posted. Your room will change every speaker.
Edited by Erich H - 9/25/13 at 11:32am
post #8128 of 9857
Erich I was actually comparing two different speakers in the same room and in the same position (I can post pictures if you want to see them). I just tried to move Tempest to a different room to see whether I can get them to show more bass.
I need to build speaker stands so that I can move Tempest closer to the wall and do more measurements.
I keep talking about Tempest but I think Alchemy MTM deservs a big thumb up. For the price they are outstanding speakers, better than commercial offerings in $700-$1000 price range.
post #8129 of 9857
The 2 graphs you posted had different settings used.

I think it would be a good idea to build the stands you mentioned, set them up properly, then take measurements.
Edited by Erich H - 9/25/13 at 3:48pm
post #8130 of 9857
might be useful to have very nearfield measurements to decouple room effects
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