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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 272

post #8131 of 9844
I'm going to go home and take more measurements using the same settings and keeping speakers and mic placement unchanged.
post #8132 of 9844
It looks as your previous speakers may dig a little bit lower, otherwise a single measurement from a single plane isn't going to tell us much about either speaker.
post #8133 of 9844
Yes and as suggested I'd grab a nearfield measurement. Put the mic 1" from the woofer cone and sweep. Only useful up to about 150hz.
post #8134 of 9844
Here are the new measurements:
282418


Here are pictures of setup for Klipsch and Tempest:
282419
282420

I took 1 meter measurements for Tempest. They were in my previous posts.
Edited by amo76 - 9/25/13 at 5:33pm
post #8135 of 9844
I think you guys are trying to punish me by having me move these big a.. speakers back and forth. smile.gif
Edited by amo76 - 9/25/13 at 8:07pm
post #8136 of 9844
Here are 1" measurements:
282422
post #8137 of 9844
Looks like the nearfield says there's still decent output to 50hz. Anything below 50hz is from the ports. Probably a 35hz tune based on that dip.

So then we look to the room measurements and there's a dip at 50hz. Also at 75, 150, and 220 roughly. These all seem roughly like multiples of each other and likely are ceiling modes. The Klipsch probably deals with that better due to driver arrangement. It's pretty minimal difference though. 7db at most. I'd take the smoother 100 to 300hz performance of the tempest personally.

Which Klipsch are those. They're pretty sensitive if those plots are relative. No change in the volume between tests?
post #8138 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by amo76 View Post

Here are the new measurements:
282418
Is that graph for klipsch or seos?

Here are pictures of setup for Klipsch and Tempest:
282419
282420

I took 1 meter measurements for Tempest. They were in my previous posts.
post #8139 of 9844
Is that graph for the seos? Down at 40hz? It looks great!
post #8140 of 9844
I haven't touched a single knob between the measurements.
I have these Klipsch.
post #8141 of 9844
....and now we know why some speaker response graphs have a big fat paragraph of fine print explaining the measurement conditions.
post #8142 of 9844
Thread Starter 
"I'm now packaging things for at least 3 hours per day, every day. After the SEOS was here, hat was my offer in all of this before needing to hire someone. I've asked for website help many times, and also asked for help with write ups. The info I post is the info I was given, or at least the most current info I have."

you know i'm just bust'n your balls erich because i think it would help you out. :-)
post #8143 of 9844
What can I do to address the ceiling modes?
post #8144 of 9844
Room modes removed, both speakers look pretty close. If you consider the Klipsch tower full range, then you would have to consider the Tempest full range too.

As mentioned in the emails before you ordered, I thought they would be fairly similar......IF you didn't need any more volume out of your set up. The benefit (if you don't need more volume) would mostly be a larger sweet spot and great dynamics with the Fusion-12. Now if you needed more volume, then it would overtake the Klipsch as you pumped more power to them.

I don't recall how much power you're using, but the Tempest will really shine and stand out when you start putting more wattage to both speakers. As the Klipsch start to show stress, the Tempest will be asking for much more. smile.gif

When people are curious which speaker to buy, I ask how big the room is, what they're using now, and if they're looking for a decent step up in volume and dynamics. If they don't need more volume than their current speakers, I'll usually recommend the Fusion-8 or Fusion-10. But if they're at all worried about that not being enough, they often go with the Fusion-12. The problem is that many people don't realize just how loud these speakers can play if they feed them some extra power.

Amo76, if you're still wondering if these can be run full range, put in some some good strong music and turn them up until you can feel it beating on your chest. biggrin.gif If your receiver doesn't put out enough power to do that, or you hear your receiver struggle, you can try a more powerful amp.

Also, you should experiment with turning the speakers into the room even more.
post #8145 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by amo76 View Post

What can I do to address the ceiling modes?

If you're eventually going to be crossing over to the subwoofers, you might want to hook those up before worrying about the lower bass room issues. All of that will change once those are running.
post #8146 of 9844
I agree with Erich. Addressing a ceiling mode would mean turning on the subs. Hopefully multi subs. If the subs experience the 50hz dip, set the sub XO at 60hz and the mains will bleed into the 50hz null a bit. Another way to deal with it would be to put absorbant on the floor and ceiling biggrin.gif

All in all you've got a nice response as is. Not much to complain about.
post #8147 of 9844
They are connected to an amp - 150 watt per channel at 8omh (real watt). I have to agree with you that they really start to shine when you crank the volume up and it feels like they are just asking for more.
post #8148 of 9844
Higher End SEOS Speaker Design Questions:


For anyone interested in the higher end (more expensive component) designs, there are some questions how they should be designed.

What should set the Alpha or Reference Line apart from everything else? Should they all be full range? Should all the woofers have demodulation rings? Should they all be 3-way designs or maybe tower speakers?

Anyone have recommendations for the price point we should be shooting for on the 8", 10", 12", and 15"?

The 3 way idea is interesting to me, but some might not think it's needed.
post #8149 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

[B]Higher End SEOS Speaker Design Questions:[/B]For anyone interested in the higher end (more expensive component) designs, there are some questions how they should be designed.What should set the Alpha or Reference Line apart from everything else? Should they all be full range? Should all the woofers have demodulation rings? Should they all be 3-way designs or maybe tower speakers?Anyone have recommendations for the price point we should be shooting for on the 8", 10", 12", and 15"?The 3 way idea is interesting to me, but some might not think it's needed.

What i want in reference is a speaker that is great for movies and music. I think 3 way is the ticket with price points
8 inch 200-300
10 inch 300-400
12 inch 400-500
15 inch 500-700
Price is per speaker. Currently I have what I think is some quality lcr. For me to upgrade I need a significant improvement . I think tuxedo has a good looking prospect and would like to see more like that. Would be nice to see something that could equal or best jtr noessis 228. I think current lineup is great value wise ... but like to see you slay the next level.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk 2
post #8150 of 9844
Dual 8", Single 12-15" would be my suggestion. I like large speakers but most of my friends like speakers no bigger than a 10"-12" width. So MTM or other would be great. BUT thats already covered I guess.

What will the Uber CD be?
post #8151 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Looks like the nearfield says there's still decent output to 50hz. Anything below 50hz is from the ports. Probably a 35hz tune based on that dip.

So then we look to the room measurements and there's a dip at 50hz. Also at 75, 150, and 220 roughly. These all seem roughly like multiples of each other and likely are ceiling modes. The Klipsch probably deals with that better due to driver arrangement. It's pretty minimal difference though. 7db at most. I'd take the smoother 100 to 300hz performance of the tempest personally.

Which Klipsch are those. They're pretty sensitive if those plots are relative. No change in the volume between tests?

The klipsch ports are in the rear which might be interacting with the room better possibly?

How do they sound compared to the Klipsch?
post #8152 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Higher End SEOS Speaker Design Questions:


For anyone interested in the higher end (more expensive component) designs, there are some questions how they should be designed.

What should set the Alpha or Reference Line apart from everything else? Should they all be full range? Should all the woofers have demodulation rings? Should they all be 3-way designs or maybe tower speakers?

Anyone have recommendations for the price point we should be shooting for on the 8", 10", 12", and 15"?

The 3 way idea is interesting to me, but some might not think it's needed.

I would think a healthy mix. Some folks would probably want reference prodcut with full range capabilities and I assume some would like reference line to mix with subs in HT. I don't think three way or full range should totally dictate if something fits. Now having 2 and 3 way options, full range and those intended for use with subs, that would be sweet. Not trying at all to tell you what to do....just thinking out loud.

Price wise, that coud really open up too many options to keep up with I think. Tux's 1099 isn't very expensive, but it strikes me as a reference type product (from what he says, of course I have not heard it). I think a good bookshelf type option 8" based design fits in the $300 a piece range or just above that. From there, I would think that a few tower or in between size units for use with stands (ala Cat12 or Noesis) would really round out the line, the way many commercial offerings are. Maybe a single 10 tower a dual 10 tower, a tower version of the ref bookshelf with the 8" mid, but add dual 10 or 12 bass or midbass drivers and maybe one like the seosr or smaller with dual 12 and horn....these should be able to be built (assuming on some component pricing here) between the $300 bookshelf and $800 or so mark I would think.
post #8153 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Dual 8", Single 12-15" would be my suggestion. I like large speakers but most of my friends like speakers no bigger than a 10"-12" width. So MTM or other would be great. BUT thats already covered I guess.

What will the Uber CD be?


That's what I wondered as well....coax maybe??
post #8154 of 9844
another thought about a reference line could be offering a higher end cabnet, possibily curved to inprove the look of the speakers
post #8155 of 9844
IMO if you're going to offer an 'Alpha' serious I would expect significant performance increases from what we have offered now and therefor the price increases would be substantial as well. The 12 and 15 inch offerings now offer very good value so if you're going to offer an upgrade it might as well be a decent upgrade. smile.gif I'd primarily be interested in 12-15" offering, particularly something MTM designed or 3 way. Many of the high end coaxes and drivers are 2-300 each. Add in baffle and crossover costs and I think anywhere from 600-1200 each would be reasonable for a true 'Alpha' type speaker. For something with a high end compression driver like the 2 way BMS driver price could easily approach 1500-2000.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 9/26/13 at 7:42am
post #8156 of 9844
If I were willing to pay more for speakers (which I'm not), I'd be looking for the best quality components first - super low distortion etc. - second would be cabinet looks, but I don't imagine there's too much to be done to a kit to prep it for veneers or make it curved. In terms of design details, I think the room to grow is in a few specialty directions: full range towers for 2-channel (maybe 2.5, 3, or even 4-way), super high performance MTM for HT, and maybe something else more hi-fi oriented, like lower sensitivity 2.1 bookshelves, maybe with a ribbon or silk some or whatever.
post #8157 of 9844
I would have thought pricing from $500 to $1500 or even $2000 per speaker.
post #8158 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I would have thought pricing from $500 to $1500 or even $2000 per speaker.

I agree, and revised my original post to include a 1500-2000 range for designs using an uber nice 2-way compression driver like the BMS. tongue.gif With that said, I'm not sure it makes sense for Erich to carry that expensive inventory but maybe he could offer the crossover, baffle, and waveguide and the customer could source their own woofs and CD? When getting into that territory we start competing with some very nice ID built offerings from the major players out there. Those looking to build such kits I would assume would be part of the one percenters, but having such designs around is great for those few.

With the realization that developing designs for this 'Alpha' series can be quite a bit of work, I would expect (and fully support) quite a bit more substantial design fee should go to the designer as part of the kit sale. If we expect guys like Tux and Matt G to stay around we've got to compensate them properly. They are very good at what they do and even charging (at least) 50-100 per kit/total sale is a BARGAIN IMO. Those of us who have dabbled in design realize the tremendous help and value here and would be purchasing a design at literally pennies per hour of their time spent building and tweaking.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 9/26/13 at 7:55am
post #8159 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I would have thought pricing from $500 to $1500 or even $2000 per speaker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I agree, and revised my original post to include a 1500-2000 range for designs using an uber nice 2-way compression driver like the BMS. tongue.gif With that said, I'm not sure it makes sense for Erich to carry that expensive inventory but maybe he could offer the crossover, baffle, and waveguide and the customer could source their own woofs and CD?

I agree 100% guys, just thought he wanted to keep the numbers lower. If they can head up to that 1500 range or more, the potential would be unlimited. My 4 woofer version of the seosr is a total of about 2k of components or just less with all discounts from group buys.

4594- $550
TD15M-$275 each (assuming group pricing) x4
Seos24-$200
xover comonents for coax $15-$50 each depending on choice of caps/coils

So like $1900 each for 4 15s and like $1350 for duals....
post #8160 of 9844
I thought selling anything called "reference" for under $1000 was against the law. wink.gif

Another vote for curved cabinet kits. A modular approach would mean the same basic cabinet could be used for the reference designs or loaded with the lower cost options. Keep the same basic cross-section for a given baffle width and stretch the baffle height to get the desired cabinet volume.

One of these days I'll start my EOS 10 curved cabinet build... rolleyes.gif Got to build the mission-style buffet server (AKA liquor cabinet) first to keep SO off the war path.
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