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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 274

post #8191 of 9844
Thread Starter 
that's great news erich! for a lot of folks, those are "no-brainer" prices. definitely increases the potential number of folks who could participate in project seos.

maybe it helps even more to call it "Ready to Assemble" speakers...sounds pretty easy. :-)

RTA furniture is a multi-billion dollar market, so there are lots of folks who are happy to put stuff together in order to save a few bucks.

how fun would it be to walk into an ikea and see seos kits someday!
post #8192 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post


how fun would it be to walk into an ikea and see seos kits someday!

That would ROCK!!!
post #8193 of 9844
Thread Starter 
also another minor bit for the notes file is the inclusion of trim rings or rear mounted woofers for a little cleaner look.
post #8194 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

also another minor bit for the notes file is the inclusion of trim rings or rear mounted woofers for a little cleaner look.

That's a great idea. It's funny how something as simple as hiding the mounting area on the woofers can make a speaker look first class. It's a simple thing, but IMO it takes the look to another level.
post #8195 of 9844
I would like to vote for full range high end speakers designed to be used for stereo music as well as high end HT. There are so many designs already focusing on HT crossed high to a subs. Besides, THX specification is the main should extend at last an octave below the crossover, that is solid to 40 Hz without peaking. I would recommend this series pays attention to some areas that not normally considered for HT, like phase accuracy and some degree of baffle step compensation. The crossover should also be benign so it can be driven by tube amplifiers for those looking for high efficiency high fidelity.

I am very interested in the new Neo CD. I, like LTD02, am very intrigued by the frequency response with the SEOS 12. The CD would have to have a seriously rising response into a plane wave tube to give that response on a CD waveguide. It would be interesting to determine the mechanisms employed to achieve this. It does not look like diaphragm breakup. Inductance reduction would help some, but it is hard to believe it would operate low enough in frequency to see those results.
post #8196 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Okay, I just got another email from the manufacturer about the beryllium diaphragms. He said it used to add about $65 - $75 to the price of the compression driver like the DE250.

He said the diaphragms are very thin, so they're harder to manufacturer because they can break during manufacturing. The reject ratio is higher, which causes the price to be more. But I'm assuming they're fine after being completely formed, glued up, and installed.

That seems like a very good price. Usspeaker charges between $354 & $381for the beryllium upgrade on the 1" exit Radian CDs. It seems to be an aftermarket diaphragm (possibly truextent?) since I'm not seeing the beryllium models on the radian website. There's a $700 premium for the beryllium option on the top of the line 951bepb.
post #8197 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewmc View Post

I would like to vote for full range high end speakers designed to be used for stereo music as well as high end HT. There are so many designs already focusing on HT crossed high to a subs. Besides, THX specification is the main should extend at last an octave below the crossover, that is solid to 40 Hz without peaking. I would recommend this series pays attention to some areas that not normally considered for HT, like phase accuracy and some degree of baffle step compensation. The crossover should also be benign so it can be driven by tube amplifiers for those looking for high efficiency high fidelity.

Agree, 100%
post #8198 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

rear mounted woofers for a little cleaner look.

That was one of my points in yesterday's post, I think that would be nice. Even a routed fascia piece trimming out the entire loudspeaker front elevation, incorporating a driver round-over and maybe even an eye toward cabinet edge round-overs.


In the other post, I included many shoot for the moon type suggestions. But to boil it down; maintaining the current SEOS high output/low distortion approach, what are the worthy gains to be pursued within the LF driver's coverage? I mean where are the areas that can be improved, .. given the current SEOS platform?

Given an entirely inert cabinet, address the basics; lower Doppler related modulation, lower Le(x) and Le(i) distortions, lessen any negative impact of backspace back-wave.

Aside from whatever is the optimal compression driver mated to the appropriate SEOS waveguide. It would appear utilizing the splendid AE/TD everything mid-bass downward is essentially state of the art. However, the octaves from that point up to the compression driver is the potential weak point area of interest. That said;

1.) mid-band improvement by off-loading the big excursions?
(a three way design maintaining the coverage matching of the full size 12's or 15's, yet implementing another (identical?) LF driver for the range below approx. 180hz? Just looking at every aspect of lowering the motor current, and lessening excursion)

2.) back-wave energy of the drive unit contaminating main front output, Latent Release Stored Energy, etc.
(the high passed LF section possessing it's own back-space, with an eye on addressing the back-wave energy, dissipating it and/or preventing it from interacting with the cone/front-wave. As I mention before, achieve this via serpentine/labyrinth cab path, or by full foam filled cabinet w/open back)

3.) The lowest range section employing appropriate vented or sealed alignment.




There are those that would support a dome/cone based reference line tower, and I think that's very cool. However, all the incredible work and quality inherent to the existing SEOS design is worthy of exploring extracting the last bit of inner detail and design execution remaining that may be in there.

As we know, many of the finest mastering rooms, many of the finest studio mains follow the 15" two-way, horn loaded platform. So clearly the platform has state of the art merit.

As an IB DIY'er and owner, I would suggest that until one experiences a true IB (full and essentially infinite backspace), it's tough to explain and quantify the relative difference in clarity and resolution over other approaches. Theoretically sure, it's valid. I'd have to say there certainly appears to be something significant to keeping the VC currents as low as possible, and assure the back-wave does not impact the cone's operation in any negative manner. There's many quasi IB subs, but loaded in an attic, or other similarly infinite backspaces really helps. I mention this because this was the genesis for my comments above wrt the Reference SEOS.

I'm not the most experienced DIY'er, and I've got nothing but subjective opinion on the theoretical. But it would seem to me that examining the back-wave of the mid-band of the SEOS platform, and determining if there's any merit to pursuing the basic and well understood elements I mentioned above (Doppler related modulation, addressing Le(x) and Le(i) distortions), whatever performance is left on the table could be fleshed out.

Thanks
post #8199 of 9844
I'm working on some nicer looking cabinet set ups. The photos below are just samples that I worked on last week for some tower speaker ideas. My external baffle is just sitting on an unfinished mdf box right now.

This one is for the Beta-8 and that Vifa dome tweeter discussed last week:




This is one with just primer for the Fusion-8 and the EOS-8 waveguide made into a tower. Obviously that's not the correct box for it because the holes don't line up. I just sat it on there so you can see what I'm working on.

post #8200 of 9844
AH, I see what you mean on us having some similar ideas. Erich, let me know if you need anything modeled in 3D space for things you have ideas on, but may not have the time to build yet.
post #8201 of 9844
Erich,

Have you created a floorstanding flatpack yet? Turn your 2ft3 box into ~ 14.5" x 40" x 9"?
post #8202 of 9844
Would there be integration issues if I built ported Tempests for L/R and a sealed one for center? My max center height is 22.75". I'm assuming that's not enough room for a slot port...? How much would it affect the sound to widen the front baffle and create slot ports on each side - similar to JTR setup?
post #8203 of 9844
Thread Starter 
"Besides, THX specification is the main should extend at last an octave below the crossover, that is solid to 40 Hz without peaking."

THX spec is for sealed "satellite" speakers on all channels, fully redirected bass at 80hz, q=0.707 cabs, -3db at 80hz on the speakers to be used with a second order high pass filter at 80hz on the mains and 80hz 4th order low pass filter on the subs.

not sure what you are talking about with respect to solid to 40hz without peaking???
post #8204 of 9844
Thread Starter 
"The THX crossover consists of an 80 Hz, 4th order Linkwitz/Riley filter alignment, and it was not chosen lightly or without serious consideration. As the crossover frequency increases, it becomes harder to blend the subwoofer with a satellite, and the subwoofer becomes more difficult to audibly "hide". At the same time, as the crossover frequency increases, distortion from the satellite decreases, the total dynamic range increases, and loading the room for the flattest response becomes much easier. The logic of the 80 Hz crossover point is that it's high enough to ease demands on the speakers and amplifier, but low enough to make the whole setup work without a tremendous headache. The 4th order (24dB/octave roll-off, 6dB/octave/pole) Linkwitz/Riley alignment not only offers a steep slope, but one that immediately transitions to that slope, maximizing the benefits of that slope near the crossover point. The high-pass side minimizes excursion and power requirements, while the low-pass minimizes more localizable content at higher frequencies.

To correctly achieve this, THX satellite speakers are sealed systems with an 80 Hz -3 dB low frequency cutoff (preferably with a Qtc of 0.71). The electronic high-pass filter applied to them is an 80 Hz, 2nd order (12dB/octave) Butterworth alignment. The speaker and the filter sum to a 4th order Linkwitz/Riley roll-off which matches the electronic filter applied to the subwoofer, and an excellent crossover is achieved."


source: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/feature-article-thx-1-2006-part-3.html
post #8205 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

That was one of my points in yesterday's post, I think that would be nice. Even a routed fascia piece trimming out the entire loudspeaker front elevation, incorporating a driver round-over and maybe even an eye toward cabinet edge round-overs.

Here's an impressive floorstanding Tempest build that does something close to what I think you are saying, albeit in solid wood and at a very high woodworking skill level. Is that sort of the idea?
post #8206 of 9844
I quickly painted the front of the new test box and glued on the front baffle to see how it looked. There's only one coat on the box but I was anxious to see how it would look. It's just a test enclosure anyway, so no big deal.

Believe it or not, I haven't built any 100% completed speakers for well over a year, so maybe I need to start my own build thread for some waveguide tower speakers. biggrin.gif


post #8207 of 9844
Looks very good Erich.

I also wanted to know where is the best place to email you for a shipping quote on a pair of SEOS 24's?

Also didnt know if it would be cheaper for me to have mine shipped directly to Australia also.
post #8208 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I'm asking around for the beryllium diaphragms. Probably not a good idea to get your hopes up, but we'll see.

As of right now, the "Fully Loaded" neo magnet compression driver is the nicest sounding model I've heard from any brand so far. I've tested a few Celestions, B&C, JBL, BMS, and some 18-Sound models. Of course I haven't tested all models. But I do have at least 40 different CD samples.....in my living room! biggrin.gif

The Fully Loaded model is also to flattest CD I've tested without any crossover components. It also extends quite high and has the copper ring, and aluminum phase plug.

This is on a SEOS-12 with no crossover: Well, it does have a cap to protect it from lower frequencies. I use it on all CD testing.






The only problem right now is that the sample I have is from about 1.5 years ago. So I've asked the manufacturers to send me parts for 2-3 more so I can check them out and see if everything is still the same. I was told they were shipping this week along with a couple screw on models. Hopefully these test the same.

What is the "fully loaded" compression driver referenced in this post. I looked back a couple of pages but found no reference.
post #8209 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Some of those are more costly and I'm having trouble figuring out what is better, versus what is just more expensive?"

that is the point that tux and erich have been trying to make--to the extent that they are all good values, performance generally is increasing with price. the only exception might be the td15m and 2226 where price and performance may be backwards.

for example, the delta 12a is good, but xmax is relatively small.

up from there is the delta pro 12a, higher xmax, higher price.

up from there is the definimax 12ho, which allows for more of a full range with an even larger coil, and includes a shorting ring for lowering distortion.

up from there the td12m with copper sleeve over the pole for ultra low distortion.

floating around somewhere in between the delta pro 12a and the td12m is the deltalite ii 2512 with the neodymium motor which allows for higher motor force using less coil, which gives lower normalized inductance and a cleaner midrange and a little more attack.


Sorry to come back to this but I have some questions and need some help.

I am wanting to build a stereo pair to learn about DIY, and get my feet wet with some experience before I do the full blown theater build next year as part of my theater project. My requirements are just a basic stereo pair- I can run them with a sub. I would use them in garage, as workshop speakers and likely use them during my home remodel project for the next year. I would also use them for outdoor parties. I have a few AVR's I can power them with, or even a spare crown 402 amp (might be too much ? )

I am having a hard time figuring out which is best to go and looking for some advice. It seems like a 12" build might make sense for me so I will stick with that. Space and cabinet size is not a big deal to me. I am looking for value. Total budget of about $400 (variable based on value)

Ok - some specific questions about the SEOS 12' options.

I see the karma 12: Has DNA350 and 12" Eminence Delta-12: $79.99

I see the FUSION 12 : DNA360 + Eminence Delta Pro-12A

I see the Deltalite 12 : DNA360+ Eminence Deltalite II 2512

I see the Alpha Zephyr : DNA360 + Eminence 12" Definimax 4012HO


My question is a few:

First, is the difference between each step up noticeable? What would I get or would I notice for the extra step up? Anyone heard any of these that can compare thoughts?

Second,

The DeltaLite option looks intriguing, but the reviews for that woofer are bad everywhere I looked. People complain about distortion and poor sound. Would the Deltalite actually sound better or as good as the FUSION ? Or it is just about being louder and more efficient ? Thoughts between those two ? I am thinking either FUSION 12 or Deltalite 12. I do not want the DNA350 so the Karma is out. The Zephyr seems expensive. I might step up if I thought it was worth it- but I am not sure there is much value for me or if I would notice much difference. I do not need full range as I would use SUBS too.

thoughts ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

just to confuse things further, there are also the non-stockers...deltalite ii 2512, 2226h, td12m and td15m...which may be some of the best. :-)

Is there a good non-stocker option I should be considering ?
I know it might seem like everyone is confusing me, but you are not. I really appreciate the advice biggrin.gif
post #8210 of 9844
Amazing that you're talking about high-performance CD's with beryllium diaphragms for relatively little $. Usually a setup in that arena is approaching $2K. Another demonstration of your ability to pull off amazing feats, Eric.
post #8211 of 9844
Thread Starter 
"The DeltaLite option looks intriguing, but the reviews for that woofer are bad everywhere I looked. People complain about distortion and poor sound."

lol...i'd be interested to see who is saying that...just for fun. links?

since you can't pick one, i'll pick one for you. :-)

let's see...

what is...

in Santa's bag...

for you...

...ah-ha! a pair of FUSION 12 : DNA360 + Eminence Delta Pro-12A + Jeff Bagby Crossover with your name on the tag.

that was easy. :-)

now for the big close because human beings love anecdotal data.

"If I were going to pick one of these two speakers [Delta Pro 12a vs. Definimax] as my personal favorite to live with for an extended period of time, and since I have dual powered subwoofers, I would take the Tempest version with the Delta Pro driver. I really like what it brings to the party in the bass and midrange, and although technically it has "higher" nonlinear distortion by about 10dB, it is not such that I can discern it audibly, apparently still too low for that. The Delta Pro 12A version has a hint more realism to it in my opinion even though the Definimax version is flatter and more extended and more refined as a design. I guess I don't always pick the audiophile speaker." -Jeff Bagby [Designer of the Tempest]

ok? done? :-)
Edited by LTD02 - 9/30/13 at 7:21pm
post #8212 of 9844
Yup biggrin.gif

The reviews were mostly on sites that sell the drivers like Parts Express.
post #8213 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angaria2 View Post

Amazing that you're talking about high-performance CD's with beryllium diaphragms for relatively little $. Usually a setup in that arena is approaching $2K. Another demonstration of your ability to pull off amazing feats, Eric.

We should keep in mind that when he was talking about beryllium, he said most of his customers didn't order it because of the extra cost. It sounded like he was giving a ball park guess from past estimates. So we'll have to wait to see what the end result actually is. Granted it can't jump up that much, so it's still very promising.

He said I should pick a CD model and they would have their diaphragm producer make some samples. I'm guessing that only ordering a few custom samples might be pretty expensive, but I'll find out. I'm just not sure if I should get samples made for the DNA-360, or the new FL model.


The BA-750 uses an interesting diaphragm and a change in that would need to be a 100% totally different set up because of the way it's mounted inside. So I'm not sure I can do anything with that model. Basically, I'm not sure it would be a BA-750 anymore with a total swap of the diaphragm because I'm not sure what beryllium diaphragms can handle. And the whole point of that model is to be a 1" CD that can handle low crossover points.
post #8214 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

Looks very good Erich.

I also wanted to know where is the best place to email you for a shipping quote on a pair of SEOS 24's?

Also didnt know if it would be cheaper for me to have mine shipped directly to Australia also.

Shipping 2 of the SEOS-24's to Australia would be very expensive. I think te package only weighs about 25lbs, but the outer dimensions of the box were nearly a 21" cube if I recall. I'm guessing hundreds of dollars to ship that.



There is a new group buy started right now though.
post #8215 of 9844
I think 100 per box would be reasonable so a total of 200 dollars for both waveguides. But I will wait to hear back. I posted in chops thread also. What do I need to put down for the deposit on the 24's and how long would they take to be shipped?
post #8216 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

We should keep in mind that when he was talking about beryllium, he said most of his customers didn't order it because of the extra cost. It sounded like he was giving a ball park guess from past estimates. So we'll have to wait to see what the end result actually is. Granted it can't jump up that much, so it's still very promising.

He said I should pick a CD model and they would have their diaphragm producer make some samples. I'm guessing that only ordering a few custom samples might be pretty expensive, but I'll find out. I'm just not sure if I should get samples made for the DNA-360, or the new FL model.


The BA-750 uses an interesting diaphragm and a change in that would need to be a 100% totally different set up because of the way it's mounted inside. So I'm not sure I can do anything with that model. Basically, I'm not sure it would be a BA-750 anymore with a total swap of the diaphragm because I'm not sure what beryllium diaphragms can handle. And the whole point of that model is to be a 1" CD that can handle low crossover points.

The BA-750 would have more benefit of the BE diaphgram. It's large and coated titanium diaphgram sounds super nice below 5kHz, but form 8kHz and up it's severly breaks up. It really needs a super tweeter to do justice to the nice midrange, but that doesn't really make sence since you could just aswell use a 1.5" or 2" exit then.

A properly designed BE diaphgram would raise the brake up point about 2,4 times and also be lighter which should improve effiency up high.

post #8217 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

I think 100 per box would be reasonable so a total of 200 dollars for both waveguides. But I will wait to hear back. I posted in chops thread also. What do I need to put down for the deposit on the 24's and how long would they take to be shipped?

I can put 2 in that one box size. But shipping that to Australia will be more expensive than $200.
post #8218 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikC View Post

The BA-750 would have more benefit of the BE diaphgram. It's large and coated titanium diaphgram sounds super nice below 5kHz, but form 8kHz and up it's severly breaks up. It really needs a super tweeter to do justice to the nice midrange, but that doesn't really make sence since you could just aswell use a 1.5" or 2" exit then.

A properly designed BE diaphgram would raise the brake up point about 2,4 times and also be lighter which should improve effiency up high.

Does the DNA-360 have the same breakup characteristics as the BA 750 above 5khz? Are these symptoms inherent to coated titanium?

-Roy
post #8219 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by FredrikC View Post

The BA-750


Those are some unusual looking CSD ridges. They look to perfect.
post #8220 of 9844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

I can put 2 in that one box size. But shipping that to Australia will be more expensive than $200.
Well lets see what the price is first Erich. I am still hoping to try and get a pair of these WG's, so I will need to find out either way in order to know if I need to get a pair on the group buy.
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