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Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 280

post #8371 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Doesn't punching the cross over lower increase the duty of the tweeter and possibly lower sound quality, dynamics or SPL ?

 

Yes but this is more of an issue when you use these CDs for what they were originally designed for, which is large format PA systems.  Throat compression begins (for the lowest frequencies) where the SPL in the throat exceeds the range in which air is able to be modulated in a linear manner, which is 166dB IRCC (in the throat).  In a room that realistically translates to listening levels in excess of 130dB on a 1" throat around 600hz.  Even if we make a stringent case for linear response considering a crest factor of say 20dB, there is still a substantial amount of headroom for domestic scenarios.  

 

I have BA-750 on SEOS18's XO'd @650hz 48dB/oct and there is no issue with dynamics or max spl etc in the 650-1k range.  SEOS hold pattern a good bit lower than the numbers posted on the DIYsoundgroup site, so where you do sacrifice the extreme SPL levels you gain a closer C2C:XO ratio so vertical lobes are pushed further out, and pattern control that extends lower.  For domestic HiFi I think the tradeoff is worth it if the driver is up to it. 

post #8372 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanCo View Post

For domestic HiFi I think the tradeoff is worth it if the driver is up to it. 

+1
post #8373 of 9857
Thread Starter 
+1 nice post ryan.
post #8374 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

With the Coax Compression driver, you basically have 2 drivers in one... so, i guess lowering the crossover means making full use of their capabilities as they are capable to be crossed at 300hz.
Despite what BMS claims, their coax needs to be crossed higher, around 450hz.
post #8375 of 9857
Thread Starter 
+1. that is about where distortion begins to blow up and so that is about the minimum frequency where they should be crossed.

a steep filter that low may actually work, but the acoustic crossover point would still be a little higher, so there are a couple of different ways to describe "usable range" or "crossover point".
post #8376 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

+1. that is about where distortion begins to blow up and so that is about the minimum frequency where they should be crossed.

a steep filter that low may actually work, but the acoustic crossover point would still be a little higher, so there are a couple of different ways to describe "usable range" or "crossover point".

LT,

I am a little confused. I just read your detailed description on why the Noesis works with the compression driver crossed at 400hz. Why wouldn't that work for 15 inch drivers or even 18 inch? Does that mean if you have bigger drivers you need to cross higher?
post #8377 of 9857
Thread Starter 
it would work just fine so long as the radiation pattern from the horn and the woofer are roughly matched.

it doesn't really matter how much the woofer and horn are beaming off axis, so long as they are beaming about the same, you have a match!
post #8378 of 9857
Corian speakers anyone? biggrin.gif

One of my friends knows someone that is certified to work with Corian. He had enough pieces left over to make 2 pairs of boxes. So I thought what the heck, let's see one of the smaller designs in a different looking box. Granted this stuff is very expensive, but I was curious to see what's possible, and possibly make it available in the future.

All Corian is the same color through the whole sheet, but if a sheet has swirls, the swirls along the edge can't be hidden on roundovers or butt joints so they have to be mitered. 2 of the boxes use a color that can be assembled where there is literally no seams at all to be seen. The other was an awesome looking slate color that needs to be mitered. I really like the look of slate, so this is my favorite:




The baffle is glued so perfectly that you can't feel any line at all. It feels like glass where the 2 pieces come together.






And here's one that can be jointed where you can't see any seams at all. It looks like it's carved out of a chunk of material.




Close up to show no seam lines:


post #8379 of 9857
Interesting!

I was just about to order a solid surface shower base, but speakers would be more fun!
post #8380 of 9857
And now the bad news about those awesome Corian boxes. The material costs hundreds.....and hundreds......and hundreds of dollars per sheet. Some styles are well over $500 per sheet. eek.gif


These boxes are a little cheaper because he had left over material. I told him if he has more, go ahead and make up pairs of boxes and I'll put them on the site. So in the future we might have some one of a kind pairs showing up with an option for custom stuff. You could go to Lowes or Home Depot, pick out the color sample you wanted, let me know, and this guy could likely do it. I like to keep my prices as low as possible, but after seeing these boxes and feeling their weight, I could see spending the extra money to have a pair in the living room for everyone to see. Especially with a matching subwoofer for a 2.1 sound system.

Oddly enough, the box for something like the Fusion-8 would cost more than the Fusion-8 kit right now. But I think that's pretty normal when I look at other "High End" speakers selling for thousands of dollars per speaker. rolleyes.gif
post #8381 of 9857
Thread Starter 
neat.

looks like there was another guy on avs who did the same thing a while back.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1328426/corian-speaker-boxes



not sure if that is the right look and feel for a living room. seems more like a kitchen / bathroom material. maybe it just depends on the color / pattern.
post #8382 of 9857
That sub box is a bit too much 'counter top' appearance for me. I agree that the oatmeal colored one isn't the greatest color. The smaller speakers do look better in person though, and to me, the slate one is really sharp. I don't think that one looks like something out of a kitchen any more than a wood coffee table matches wood kitchen cabinets. wink.gif

They do have white, black, and a lot of other colors too.
Edited by Erich H - 10/13/13 at 8:47pm
post #8383 of 9857


I agree the "Slate" looks cool. Would love to build something unique like that without having to actually "Finish" it.

Thanks for thinking out of the box!
post #8384 of 9857
Erich, those slate Corian speakers look really, really good and they should have almost no resonance.
post #8385 of 9857
You know how you keep asking about a reference line? Those should be the cabinets for the reference line! Talk about dead.
post #8386 of 9857
I think the slate looks ugly in the living room as a piece of furniture. The better comparison to the kitchen is having stainless steel in the living room. Definitely not my idea of high end but an opinion is just that .
post #8387 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post

I think the slate looks ugly in the living room as a piece of furniture. The better comparison to the kitchen is having stainless steel in the living room. Definitely not my idea of high end but an opinion is just that .

Luckily they aren't a piece of furniture going in my living room. wink.gif

And again, the guy used stuff he had left over. There are hundreds of solid colors that would look no different than a very well painted cabinet.

I'll go ahead and throw these in the trash.......the kitchen trash can of course. smile.gif
post #8388 of 9857
They could look decent but for me they would feel cold. I like the warmth of wood .... hey I'm a woodwork teacher biggrin.gif
post #8389 of 9857
Thread Starter 


natural


super high gloss


:-)~

maybe there is a way to recess the driver baffle and flush mount the grill in the reference line?
just thinking about ways to cover up the driver and ports while leaving the nice looking waveguides exposed.

tiger stripe black (I messed this one up a bit)


birds eye maple


maybe it is just a "pick your veneer" type thing?

who knows? lots of possibilities for finishing including the corian material and other material.

is it possible to put a super high gloss finish on/over corian? maybe it is the kitchen countertop matte finish that is giving it that weird effect and not so much the pattern in the material itself.

this is the same oatmeal colored corian as that subwoofer that I linked to above. doesn't seem to have the same effect with the high gloss effect.



high polish stone:

Edited by LTD02 - 10/14/13 at 12:36am
post #8390 of 9857
Yes, any of that Corian can be polished and buffed until it's a mirror shine, he just stopped before getting to that point. I did ask the same guy to build a wood veneered box with the black Corian baffle to see how they looked.
post #8391 of 9857
What does one of those corian boxes weigh?
post #8392 of 9857
The boxes are pretty small, but they weigh 20lbs. The same box in Baltic birch are under 10lbs.
post #8393 of 9857
Corian would eliminate the rings and stains from bottles, cans, and plants. It happens eventually...rolleyes.gif
post #8394 of 9857
It's been a really long week, and I'm just catching up.
Oh, and if I wasn't sure before, I am 200% now going to be getting a pair of speakers this year, maybe even for the holiday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

what you guys are both seeing is the effect of the room on the frequency response.

here is an overlay of carps measurement (black line) and amos (red/blue lines)

the black dashed line is just a rough approximation of what the tempests actually do without room effects.

the blue arrows that points down, at 40 and 100hz, show clearly room resonance peaks.

the red arrow that points down, at 40hz shows clearly a room resonance peak.

the two black lines that point down, at 28 and 33hz show two room resonances.

the black arrows that point up at 40 and 95hz show clearly cancellation reflections. the one at 40hz is almost certainly the rear wall.

the blue line that points up at 53hz shows clearly a cancellation reflection. it is almost certainly the rear wall and in a shorter room.

so none of this shows anything having to with the speaker itself. it is all just the transfer function of the room.


Take some time to go read some of the older DIY Subwoofer build threads. Your room, and placement of speakers and subwoofer(s) make a huge difference in low end.
I had an insanely tough room at first. I had giant nulls all over the place when I first measured my subwoofers 20-100 hz. I could take measurements, move 2 feet, and re-measure and it would look like a completely different room in some places.
There was a "Sweet Spot" about 3 foot up from the main listening position where there was (what felt like) almost a 50% gain in volume if you were in the right spot.
I had lots of fun moving those 6 foot tall monsters around and listening, moving again and finally finding a spot that would work that sounded the best.
Luckly enough, Corner loaded in the front was the best spot aesthetically and acoustically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Alpha and Reference Line Speakers:

There's some open windows coming up to work on the higher end/higher priced models. If anyone has any ideas what should be done, I'll get moving on them.

Driver models, layouts, etc.

More ideas, let's keep em coming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HT cOz View Post

For the High End models, maybe you could consider using a Phenolic material to build the cabinets. http://norplex-micarta.com/products/product-detail.php?page=30

Something along these lines http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=92198.0

Also an idea is to glue the inside of the cabinets with the Phenolic material in our DIY fashion. This would make it very easy as you would just need to order a few square feet. http://slate-ish.com/products/
Interesting... which leads to...
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

bump.

it might help stoke the creativity if folks had a little better sense what toys there were to play with.

I've mentioned a 15"-18" seos over a 15" driver with a good c.d. crossed in around 750hz or so...but I don't know if such a compression driver is part of the lineup.

matt's work voicing out chop's seos12/td15m passive surrounds looks really good...heck that one qualifies as a seos reference imho. punching the crossover point down a little and using a little larger horn...maybe just a little better performance...maybe. would be nice to see an alternative to the td15m, just so there isn't a single point.

i've kicked a couple of ideas around a 12" mtm out there as well...

anyway...always looking forward to seeing what you have in the works.

+1 I know we kicked around the idea of 1 TD15M versus 2x Deltalite 12's
It's a few pages back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanCo View Post

Yes but this is more of an issue when you use these CDs for what they were originally designed for, which is large format PA systems.  Throat compression begins (for the lowest frequencies) where the SPL in the throat exceeds the range in which air is able to be modulated in a linear manner, which is 166dB IRCC (in the throat).  In a room that realistically translates to listening levels in excess of 130dB on a 1" throat around 600hz.  Even if we make a stringent case for linear response considering a crest factor of say 20dB, there is still a substantial amount of headroom for domestic scenarios.  

I have BA-750 on SEOS18's XO'd @650hz 48dB/oct and there is no issue with dynamics or max spl etc in the 650-1k range.  SEOS hold pattern a good bit lower than the numbers posted on the DIYsoundgroup site, so where you do sacrifice the extreme SPL levels you gain a closer C2C:XO ratio so vertical lobes are pushed further out, and pattern control that extends lower.  For domestic HiFi I think the tradeoff is worth it if the driver is up to it. 

The SEOS 18 is an awesome size while still retaining the 1" throat, and if I recall correctly, this is one of the main points that everyone was trying to aim for when we were ironing out the specific SEOS Shape, and Throat profile.
It was supposed to be a near perfect match for the DE-250, and now DNA-360 / BA-750

That BA 750 + SEOS 18 combo sounds pretty promising for a "Spending the money, but not breaking the bank" endevour, that isn't the 250-350$ CD's and the bigger sized SEOS 24.
You could save a pretty good chunk if you went that way, and put that money into driver(s), and materials / finishing.



...

And then you had to do it again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Corian speakers anyone? biggrin.gif

One of my friends knows someone that is certified to work with Corian. He had enough pieces left over to make 2 pairs of boxes. So I thought what the heck, let's see one of the smaller designs in a different looking box. Granted this stuff is very expensive, but I was curious to see what's possible, and possibly make it available in the future.

All Corian is the same color through the whole sheet, but if a sheet has swirls, the swirls along the edge can't be hidden on roundovers or butt joints so they have to be mitered. 2 of the boxes use a color that can be assembled where there is literally no seams at all to be seen. The other was an awesome looking slate color that needs to be mitered. I really like the look of slate, so this is my favorite:




The baffle is glued so perfectly that you can't feel any line at all. It feels like glass where the 2 pieces come together.






And here's one that can be jointed where you can't see any seams at all. It looks like it's carved out of a chunk of material.




Close up to show no seam lines:




I just wanted to stop for a moment, re-link those pictures, and stare for a while.
THIS. IS. AWESOME.

I don't care if I have to delay building my project because I spent everything on the box instead of what goes inside of it, Erich lets do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

You know how you keep asking about a reference line? Those should be the cabinets for the reference line! Talk about dead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post



natural


super high gloss


:-)~

maybe there is a way to recess the driver baffle and flush mount the grill in the reference line?
just thinking about ways to cover up the driver and ports while leaving the nice looking waveguides exposed.

tiger stripe black (I messed this one up a bit)


birds eye maple


maybe it is just a "pick your veneer" type thing?

who knows? lots of possibilities for finishing including the corian material and other material.

is it possible to put a super high gloss finish on/over corian? maybe it is the kitchen countertop matte finish that is giving it that weird effect and not so much the pattern in the material itself.

this is the same oatmeal colored corian as that subwoofer that I linked to above. doesn't seem to have the same effect with the high gloss effect.



high polish stone:

You must be a pro at this, because you can whip up those mock ups super quickly.

So,

Now that we are on the subject, I have been thinking translucent / clear acrylic, polycarbonite, plexiglass, lexan etc.
I want something that isn't duratex'd (Not that I don't like it, just that I want something 1 of a kind)

http://www.dupont.com/products-and-services/construction-materials/surface-design-materials/brands/corian-solid-surfaces/products/corian-all-colors.html
http://www.eplastics.com/Colored_Plexiglass_Acrylic_Sheet_Transparent

Ok... I think I'll just get back over to my SEOS ClearTower thread.

So many ideas now, I am excited.

- Max
post #8395 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Corian speakers anyone? biggrin.gif

Now that's a cool idea!

I'd imagine that in addition to materials costs that shipping costs would be a heart-breaker on most speakers sized to fit an SEOS waveguide, though.
post #8396 of 9857
post #8397 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post

Corian with the 1-piece SEOS baffle? Just in case anyone forgot about the one-piece units...

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1291022/hey-guys-we-need-a-little-rallying-here/6720#post_22873375


http://www.avsforum.com/t/1291022/hey-guys-we-need-a-little-rallying-here/6720#post_22873455

Now we are talking. Something like this would look superb as a tower.

I wanted to do a contrasting clear and either translucent or solid front baffle, so you could see the front baffle, everything mounted to it. Or through it, and all of the guts of the thing.
If the front was made like these then even in boxes finished like LTD02's earlier would be awesome.
post #8398 of 9857
Thread Starter 
just to kick a few more ideas into the already overflowing idea pot, rear porting and rear mounting of the drivers could give a pretty clean look even without horn molded into the front baffle.
post #8399 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Now that's a cool idea!

I'd imagine that in addition to materials costs that shipping costs would be a heart-breaker on most speakers sized to fit an SEOS waveguide, though.

My guess is that anyone willing to order a Reference Line model custom made from Corian, wouldn't be too worried about the extra shipping costs. biggrin.gif

The 1/2" Corian weighed close to double that of Baltic birch. 3/4" would be the same way, and mdf weighs pretty close to Baltic.

The Fusion-12 cabinet is about 42lbs. So a rough guess would put the Corian around 75lbs. A tower speaker would likely be 150lbs. But they'd be shipped by pallet either way, so it would only be a few hundred dollars to ship a pair.......or seven.
post #8400 of 9857
Open Baffle... If only I had any idea how to even begin with this approach, though I wouldnt know where to start.

One 1 1/2" thick x 20" wide baffle (Wide enough to have the SEOS-18 mounted / moulded into it.
Tall enough for a TD18x TD15M or 2x deltalites, rear mounted.

Just dreaming up ideas.
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