or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Hey guys...we need a little rallying here...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Hey guys...we need a little rallying here... - Page 295

post #8821 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

Multichannel music where music is coming from the rear is a cacophony of sound.

Try the 5/7/9 channel stereo mode on the newer (<10 years) Yamaha receivers. It might change your mind.
post #8822 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolgeek View Post

Eric,

Would it be possible to put options to upgrade certain kits to use the dna 360? For instance the Fusion 8 MTM or the Co-Axials (this is so that people who are willing to pay for a better compression driver but want a different sized or designed speaker can still get that quality sound).

Just curious what you're thinking would be gained by switching out the CD's?

The 360 wouldn't be an upgrade to the 205. They just have different power ratings and one can be crossed over lower. Switching out compression drivers in the certain speakers wouldn't be an upgrade or make them better. The compression drivers were chosen to go with that specific design and changing them out would actually make the speaker worse without a full rework of the crossover. So even if you were willing to pay more, there's no benefit to using a 360 over a 205 in those designs.

If you get one of the 8" models and listen to it, you'll see that the compression driver has PLENTY of power for the speaker and sounds very good. You won't even get close to it's maximum power handling. Also, some people would say the 205 with it's Mylar diaphragm sounds smoother.
post #8823 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Just curious what you're thinking would be gained by switching out the CD's?

The 360 wouldn't be an upgrade to the 205. They just have different power ratings and one can be crossed over lower. Switching out compression drivers in the certain speakers wouldn't be an upgrade or make them better. The compression drivers were chosen to go with that specific design and changing them out would actually make the speaker worse without a full rework of the crossover. So even if you were willing to pay more, there's no benefit to using a 360 over a 205 in those designs.

If you get one of the 8" models and listen to it, you'll see that the compression driver has PLENTY of power for the speaker and sounds very good. You won't even get close to it's maximum power handling. Also, some people would say the 205 with it's Mylar diaphragm sounds smoother.

Ah, ic... thanks for the explanation... I guess it's easy to get distracted with 'higher numbers means better'..

I am looking to create a whole set of 5.1 from your offerings, and stumbled upon your soon to be released Tap Horn... it says to protect the woofer we'll need to include a high pass filter... can this be done via a passive crossover and if so, will you be able to provide the crossover as well (in the near future)? Also, any recommendation of amps for it?
post #8824 of 9857
There's a thread here on AVS with a lot of info on LilMike's tapped horn. I'm just the packaging and shipping guy. biggrin.gif Most smaller sub amps have a built in high pass around that frequency, but I don't know the exact ones.
post #8825 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"Is there any advantage to running an array of rear surrounds ? Those minions look like great surround speakers, but being a horn and couple it with a narrow and long room would it be better to run a pair of them for surrounds (making 6 total for a 7.1 system not counting LCR)"



imax specs 5 speakers (not counting "god channel"), horn loaded, in the corners and front/center, all aimed to the middle 60% seat or so.

.

"God channel?" Channeling your inner communications? Can you explain? All I got from Google was this:

http://www.godchannel.com/
post #8826 of 9857
Thread Starter 
it is a second center channel that is placed at the top of the screen. used to provide sounds "from above". such as during space shuttle launch or something where the object goes up off the screen. not sure how much it is actually used. I'm not sure if "god channel" is what folks call it or not. i read that somewhere and it made sense, so that's what i call it.

the center speaker near the ceiling in these pics:
http://wtfffnews.blogspot.com/2013/07/london-bfi-imax-screen-replacement_20.html
post #8827 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Just curious what you're thinking would be gained by switching out the CD's?

The 360 wouldn't be an upgrade to the 205. They just have different power ratings and one can be crossed over lower. Switching out compression drivers in the certain speakers wouldn't be an upgrade or make them better. The compression drivers were chosen to go with that specific design and changing them out would actually make the speaker worse without a full rework of the crossover. So even if you were willing to pay more, there's no benefit to using a 360 over a 205 in those designs.

If you get one of the 8" models and listen to it, you'll see that the compression driver has PLENTY of power for the speaker and sounds very good. You won't even get close to it's maximum power handling. Also, some people would say the 205 with it's Mylar diaphragm sounds smoother.

Actually, I think I understand the thinking, because Mr. Geek is wondering what a lot of us are wondering. "if the DNA 205 is good for $32, then the 350 for only $20 more must be better. And if the 360 is better for only $20 more, then I want the 360 instead of the 350 because it's only a few more bucks." The logic is correct, but as my logic teacher said in college, "logic has NOTHING to do with reality."

I ordered a couple of different SEOS kits six months ago, and ended up with a pair of DNA-205's and a pair of DNA-360's. I was able to A/B them in open air and experiment with them.

Both were in 12" SEOS waveguides. I listened to the drivers with their own XO's, I interchanged them with the 205 on the 360's XO. and vice-versa. I even listened to them with the 205 hooked up to the left channel, and the 360 in the right channel. My "ear" conclusions were surprising. What is not surprising, is that as usual, Erich is right.

At moderate/loud listening levels and below, there was VERY little difference in the sound quality and timbre, so close to the same sound I can't even quantify how they are different. And as Erich suggested, the 205's were very smooth, very pleasant to listen to, whether using their own XO's or the XO to the 360 (from the Cheap Thrills build). I'll tell you how they sounded best, but nobody in their right mind would do this. When I had the 205 in the left channel, and the 360 in the right channel, they sounded better together than either one did when matched with the same model! I think each one probably "filled" the sound the other didn't, but I offer that as testimony as to how close these CD's sounded to each other.

The 205 has a much smaller diameter magnet and weighs less then the 360, and costs $32 vs $76 for the 360. If you conducted a blind test, I think you would find they both sound almost exactly the same, and both were pleasant (not harsh) to listen to. I would guess that someone could do a much more demanding stress test and expose the differences, but my general conclusion is that they are very well matched to each other.

I would think the 360's might do well in fronts with a larger design that required more power handling, and the 205's would be a PERFECT timbre match for surrounds in whatever box they were in, and whether used for fronts or surrounds.
post #8828 of 9857
The main differences are power handling and crossover points. The 205 can't be crossed over as low as the 360. But if there was a design made up for the 360 that had a higher crossover point, then the 205 would probably work with some slight crossover changes. I believe that would have been the case with the Cheap Thrills due to the flat response of the woofer.

In the end, I'd just stick with the original design because a lot of time goes into designing the crossover for the specific components used in that speaker.
post #8829 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

with multichannel music, you want timbre matched speakers because in some sense, they are all "mains".

I disagree. The issue is not the speakers, but human hearing. We just hear things behind us differently than in front, so IMO spending money on surrounds that does not address actually relevant issues (cosmetics, output, pattern - a common problem is that surrounds are close, which means that off-center listeners get one much louder than the other, and line array-ish speakers may be better than point source-ish speakers.) is really just a misallocation of resources.

Also, there's just no such thing as "matched" speakers. That's just marketing. There are "identical" speakers and "different" speakers. LCR should be "identical." Surrounds can be "different."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post

Multichannel music where music is coming from the rear is a cacophony of sound.

Not always. There's Mahler 8 and the like. smile.gif
post #8830 of 9857
Is there any plan to use the 205s in a future coaxial design?
post #8831 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

I disagree. The issue is not the speakers, but human hearing. We just hear things behind us differently than in front, so IMO spending money on surrounds that does not address actually relevant issues (cosmetics, output, pattern - a common problem is that surrounds are close, which means that off-center listeners get one much louder than the other, and line array-ish speakers may be better than point source-ish speakers.) is really just a misallocation of resources.

Also, there's just no such thing as "matched" speakers. That's just marketing. There are "identical" speakers and "different" speakers. LCR should be "identical." Surrounds can be "different."
Not always. There's Mahler 8 and the like. smile.gif

After a great deal of experimentation, line array surrounds (9 5in woofs and 8 1in domes) have proven the most satisfactory and convincing in my room. Cheap Thrills (sort of) L+R and Tempest center.
post #8832 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Surrounds don't need to be timbre matched to the mains. The coaxial models will get plenty loud enough. I can't recall the depth need for the 8" model, but it could probably be put in a shallow box around 7.5". I'd have to double check, but I'm pretty sure that would work.

Cool, thanks for the advice. Yeah I wasn't too worried about (and never have been) perfectly timbre matching the fronts and the mains. I think I have a pair of the Pioneer SP-BS22 Andrew Jones bookshelves I could use for the time being until I decide what else to get. I do worry about them keeping up with the Tempests though with their lower sensitivity, although they are closer to the LP than the mains. I like the look of the JBL 8430a's, but for the money, I think the coaxial models would get the job done just as well in my room. (3,300 cubic feet)
post #8833 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post

Actually, I think I understand the thinking, because Mr. Geek is wondering what a lot of us are wondering. "if the DNA 205 is good for $32, then the 350 for only $20 more must be better. And if the 360 is better for only $20 more, then I want the 360 instead of the 350 because it's only a few more bucks." The logic is correct, but as my logic teacher said in college, "logic has NOTHING to do with reality."

I ordered a couple of different SEOS kits six months ago, and ended up with a pair of DNA-205's and a pair of DNA-360's. I was able to A/B them in open air and experiment with them.

Both were in 12" SEOS waveguides. I listened to the drivers with their own XO's, I interchanged them with the 205 on the 360's XO. and vice-versa. I even listened to them with the 205 hooked up to the left channel, and the 360 in the right channel. My "ear" conclusions were surprising. What is not surprising, is that as usual, Erich is right.

At moderate/loud listening levels and below, there was VERY little difference in the sound quality and timbre, so close to the same sound I can't even quantify how they are different. And as Erich suggested, the 205's were very smooth, very pleasant to listen to, whether using their own XO's or the XO to the 360 (from the Cheap Thrills build). I'll tell you how they sounded best, but nobody in their right mind would do this. When I had the 205 in the left channel, and the 360 in the right channel, they sounded better together than either one did when matched with the same model! I think each one probably "filled" the sound the other didn't, but I offer that as testimony as to how close these CD's sounded to each other.

The 205 has a much smaller diameter magnet and weighs less then the 360, and costs $32 vs $76 for the 360. If you conducted a blind test, I think you would find they both sound almost exactly the same, and both were pleasant (not harsh) to listen to. I would guess that someone could do a much more demanding stress test and expose the differences, but my general conclusion is that they are very well matched to each other.

I would think the 360's might do well in fronts with a larger design that required more power handling, and the 205's would be a PERFECT timbre match for surrounds in whatever box they were in, and whether used for fronts or surrounds.

+1

Wow... it's like you read my mind. You just can't help thinking that for a 'few bucks more', you get far superior sound. And in this case, turns out, it's not true... biggrin.gif

Thanks for sharing.
post #8834 of 9857
Ok, I might as well ask the question because someone here might have the answer.

Anyone knows if there's a 100-150 watt or so 'built in' subwoofer amp that can be used for the Tap Horn that Erich is selling (with a proper high pass filter and would not blow the driver? (I am thinking of just building an extra layer to the box with a built in amp. Would make it so much easier to use.
post #8835 of 9857
Thread Starter 
which one, the anarchy?
post #8836 of 9857
Thread Starter 
"We just hear things behind us differently than in front"

we are highly attuned to timbre in all directions. otherwise you would not know who it was calling your name if they were standing behind you.

"there's just no such thing as "matched" speakers. That's just marketing."

speakers can have similar components, such as horns, that provide a similar eq and power response across a portion of the spectrum responsible for timbre. so even if the speakers are different, the timbre that they impart to the sound can be more similar than with a completely different design, even though the speakers themselves may not be identical.
post #8837 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

which one, the anarchy?

Yup, it's the anarchy woofer in a tap horn... I am thinking of build a few of these (powered), but need to get a proper 'built in plate subwoofer amp'... I know the box design doesn't allow for it, but i can built a fake extension to the box and put in a plate amp... preferably a plate amp with 'high pass' to protect the woofer, and also ability to 'pre out' so i can connect several together...
post #8838 of 9857
Definitely want a new horn speaker and thinking of the SEOS for sure. My room is 13x10 and it is my home theater room with 90" screen. Can I make the Fusion 12-Tempest work in this room? I may have a bigger room in the future so if I can I would like to.
post #8839 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyee View Post

Definitely want a new horn speaker and thinking of the SEOS for sure. My room is 13x10 and it is my home theater room with 90" screen. Can I make the Fusion 12-Tempest work in this room? I may have a bigger room in the future so if I can I would like to.

According to DIYSoundgroup, the Tempest is 98dB sensitive and the Sentinel is only 96dB (Not sure why the bigger one is less sensitive)... so, if max spl is what you're looking for, it would seem the smaller Tempest can play louder.
post #8840 of 9857
Higher sensitivity doesn't mean it will have more maximum SPL.

Speakers putting out lower bass tend to have lower sensitivity. That would be one reason the Sentinel sensitivity is less than the Tempest.
post #8841 of 9857
I was just wondering if the Tempest would overpower the room. Maybe the Fusion 10 Pure might be better suited??

BTW, Erich, I sent you a contact form from your site re "Can you ship to Canada"? Just wondering if you can?
post #8842 of 9857
I think Tempest will be too big for 10x13 room with 90" screen. I think Fusion-8 or Alchemy-8 will work better.
post #8843 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by amo76 View Post

I think Tempest will be too big for 10x13 room with 90" screen. I think Fusion-8 or Alchemy-8 will work better.

Wonder is 12x18x9 room...2000cf. Been thinking about the tempest but would also be open to the Alpha-8 Minion. Too many choices. confused.gif
post #8844 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkkwaz View Post

Cool, thanks for the advice. Yeah I wasn't too worried about (and never have been) perfectly timbre matching the fronts and the mains. I think I have a pair of the Pioneer SP-BS22 Andrew Jones bookshelves I could use for the time being until I decide what else to get. I do worry about them keeping up with the Tempests though with their lower sensitivity, although they are closer to the LP than the mains. I like the look of the JBL 8430a's, but for the money, I think the coaxial models would get the job done just as well in my room. (3,300 cubic feet)

Sorry to be a little OT, but since I already touched on it here and didn't want to start a new topic and clutter things up...I have a friend selling two jbl 8330's for $160 for the pair. Would these work ok as surrounds with the tempests up front? Not concerned about timbre matching, but if I am cranking things up are these going to be struggling and distorting to keep up? Lower sensitivity, but closer to the LP as well. On the other hand, I could go with the coaxial builds from erich, but would much rather just get something pre made and be done with surrounds. He says they are in perfect condition and still has the original boxes. I was about to get some Pioneer Andrew Jones bookshelves but then ran into these. Anyone have any experience? Or let me know if I should start a new thread...
post #8845 of 9857
Thread Starter 
"I think Tempest will be too big for 10x13 room with 90" screen."

how do you mean? imho, it would be just fine.
post #8846 of 9857
Width wise they will be fine, but this is a pretty small room and I'm not sure whether it make sense to have Tempest in such a small space.
post #8847 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by amo76 View Post

Width wise they will be fine, but this is a pretty small room and I'm not sure whether it make sense to have Tempest in such a small space.

no they wont
have you seen the size of my room? if i didnt have silly ceilings to deal with I would have a screen with the tempests in a smaller space

the only benefit the fusion 8 has is its center can be made to lay on its side, building 3 tempests you need a good deal of clearence from the floor to the screen or an AT screen
post #8848 of 9857
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"I think Tempest will be too big for 10x13 room with 90" screen."

how do you mean? imho, it would be just fine.

(speaking to Amos76) The Fusion Pure uses a 1 cuft box, the Tempest uses a 2 cuft box. My Pures are NOT small, and I have a relatively small living room, about 14x14 with irregular walls and an open back. Still, if I could I would use the Tempests if I had the space (mine was limited by WAF, not real space). So I guess I am agreeing with Mr. LTD02.

To do anything else would be considered, unwise. tongue.gifcool.gif
+++

Sibuna, you said "no they wont" (be too large for the room .-Dave added blue type)

I wasn't quite sure what you were saying, but I put in blue what I think you were saying. Are you agreeing that the larger speakers would be fine for the smaller room? I think that is what you are saying, because I've seen the pics of the MANY large speakers you have in your smallish listening room. I have yet to see you swap anything out for smaller gear. cool.gif
Edited by wvu80 - 1/6/14 at 2:10pm
post #8849 of 9857
I have SEOS 12 Deltalite II's in my 12' x 12' living room. they will be fine. They all have potential to blow you out the room. 8" models on up.
post #8850 of 9857
You do have to pay attention to your volume because they won't sound like they are as loud as they are!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Speakers and Subs
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Hey guys...we need a little rallying here...