Zero Black Level PDP Research - Page 3

What's interesting is that while over adjusting the pots on my LG PG25 to achieve a lower MLL I've been able to duplicate some of Panasonics reported problems, green blobs and floating blacks which would lead one to believe that Panasonic are trying to adjust their panels to the lowest black level while LG are adjusting their sets to be within certain tolerance for trouble free operation, which is why some are reporting very acceptable blacks and others mediocre performance.

Interesting post to add on to why Plasma looks worse than LCD under ambient light or flash:

Just curious, as the VT50 will be arriving in a couple of months: Are there any new Panasonic patents regarding black level? Xrox I think you posted a couple of these patent links somewhere, but I can't recall what thread. I'm guessing this is a new method getting closer to Pioneer's CLEAR driving, as Panasonic has mentioned that the initial spark is smaller than ever.

Also wondering if this 3 section CEL using Sro instead of Mgo and a separate initialization cell (SIC) would ultimately be, in theory, the requirement for zero black. However, one of the previous posts in this thread said that sort of technology would be used for 4k.

I think this Sro material may be incorporated in 2013, but I can't see them using a SIC, since it has been said that there may be very noticeable results just switching to the new CEL material if it's incorporated the way Pioneer used it.

There isn't too much room for improvement from what I've seen now on the 500m, but it could definitely be blacker in about 5% of the material I've viewed on it. We're really splitting hairs, yet the luminance on a full black screen in clearly there.

500m is pretty much the best one can get. I think it would be very interesting though, to see a plasma with absolute blacks.

Just came across this Plasma Display Panel Drive Method Patent Application Publication by Panasonic published last week Date Feb.2, 2012

http://images3.freshpatents.com/pdf/US20120026142A1.pdf

Panasonic Patent US 20120026142-A1
"ABSTRACT

The luminance of black level in an image displayed on a plasma display panel is reduced to enhance the contrast and image display quality. For this purpose, in an initializing period, one of a forced initializing waveform, a selective initializing waveform, and a non-initializing waveform is applied to scan electrodes. Further, one field is formed of a special initializing subfield where the forced initializing waveform and then on-initializing waveform are selectively generated, and a plurality of selective initializing subfields where only the selective initializing waveform is generated. The number of forced initializing waveforms applied to one scan electrode is one in one field group. The non-initializing waveform is applied to the scan electrodes on both sides of the scan electrode applied with the forced initializing waveform in a special initializing subfield, in at least two special initializing subfields, i.e. the special initializing subfield and a special initializing subfield immediately succeeding the special initializing subfield."


Not too sure if there is new technology being applied, I will leave that to xrox.

What is interesting is that this headline followed on the 3rd of Feb.
Panasonic headed for record $10 billion anual loss
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...81206P20120203

^The record loss doesn't have much to do with this thread, though it is a reason to place your bets on OLED at this juncture if you demand the best black level.

Only by the fact that most are looking at Panasonic to carry the torch to come up with a lower MLL for plasma displays, Samsung and LG appear to be headed in other directions, aka OLED.

I'll take a look at their new published Patent but most of it may be all Greek to me, although I've learned a bit from the LG panel tweak thread with xrox's help.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1372479

What would "black flicker" look like? It doesn't sound like it would be very perceptible. Does that mean in a scene with low or zero APL, the whole screen is flickering? That sounds hard to see. And if you dither that flicker instead of having the whole screen flicker at once, it sounds even harder to see.

Hi xrox - I've been able to lower mll on my Samsung 51" panel much the same way as the LGs by reducing the ramp-up time of the initialization pulse. However, the scan boards on the larger panels do not have any timing trim controls so I think they are also moving into the "active control of black levels" realm. I also agree that a pulsating mll would be a bad idea just to get good contrast numbers.

Another data point on floating blacks: Samsung (2011) mlls rise with APL. The mll doubles during high APL scenes.

Question on ITO (indium tin oxide): I've seen references in the firmware for the 59" and 64" panels to two different electrode structures, ITO and ITO-less. Can you comment on the pros/cons of the two different structures? Can they affect mll?

Thanks xrox- very helpful.

I wish the AVS Forum moderators would turn on the "Thank"-button feature.

Other forums using vBulletin have it and it's extremely useful.

That way I could have acknowledged my gratitude to xrox without having to make an actual post and waste everyone else's time.

But I believe the only thing worse than irritating everyone else with a useless post is letting xrox's contributions go unappreciated. And no, sending him a PM isn't the same as public recognition.

Will Kuro black levels be bested by the year 2020?

Sure, since Samsung Amoled is 0.0034 cd/m2 same as Krp-500m monitor

It will be done when it will be worth it, and when the technology will permit it without huge production costs.

I don't think it's in any manufacturers plan to commercialize a 4000$ TV that no one will be able to afford at the present time (except a small niche of consumers).

Seeing the slack LG and Samsung leave on their black, I believe they would have no problem building a "Kuro-like" TV, but the price would be unattractive.

Why is it that you can have niche high cost cars but not niche high cost displays?

I guess the market wants it that way.

A Ferrari is a luxury product, it has prestige, built with noble materials.
I don't think you can do the same for a TV to be honest.

The average consumer will look at the overall performances and the design, not only the blacks. This is why Pioneer failed to continue producing Kuro's, too expensive to produce and not enough demand.

You can't blame peoples for not buying a 4000$ TV though, i wouldn't.
Even if it had diamonds in the bezel, the best blacks in the world, the most wonderful image. It's just not worth it, it's just a TV.

OLED will most certainly blast the Kuro's with much lower blacks, it's just not affordable to mass produce yet (i'm pretty sure a 40" OLED would be around 15.000$ now, if not more).

We do have the technology to make better blacks, LG does, Samsung does, Panasonic too does, they don't do it because it's not worth it. They would loose a lot of money trying.

Pioneer almost went bankrupt trying.

Samsung's 55" OLED will be unleashed for $9000 sometime this year (time will tell), and LG's below that.

Thanks.

At that price, I believe it will only be available on special orders. I don't see retailers taking 20 of those and risking not selling them (2 or 3 at max in stock at most).

It's gonna be that expensive for at least the next 2-3 years, decreasing slowly.
And for it to be really affordable, I would guess 5 years.

Personally I can wait.

And we know for sure that OLED will blast anything (blackest blacks, best colors, etc..). So honestly, 5 years more doesn't bother me.

I'm ready ASAP actually. Life is short, so bring on the mass production and the panel that finally and truly beats the Kuro's black level (without some deceptive trickery). I've heard as low as $5000 for LG's model.

Yes, moving horizontal lines is what I see on my VT50 and have been posting about. I 1st noticed it in a 0 stimulus but I can see it at higher ones (visually, I haven't used test patterns).

This is exactly what the VT50 is doing this year (and probably the other 50 series models). This new drive system has a lot of flicker and I see a loss of resolution in darker tones and some interesting anomalies on moving objects that are near black (or low APL). I made a post about it on HDJ. I'll copy and paste it in the VT50 thread here. More details on my observsation are over are HDJ.
Edited by SiGGy - 6/9/12 at 3:33pm

where did you get that number?

Maybe he meant 0.0004. Wasn`t it d-nice that suceeded to produce that number?

Ya, I should have been a bit more specific. I meant for the Samsung. I wasn't even thinking that would be bad for a Kuro Even the VT50 this year beats that!

Not only the 2012 Panasonic PDPs do this. This is obvious on their 2011 Neo-PDPs too and some people say it was already there in 2010. It is just getting more and more easy to spot, I suppose.

huh, I never noticed it on my VT30. Perhaps once you pass a certain MLL it starts to show.