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Official OPPO BDP-93 Owner's Thread - Page 512

post #15331 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Until there is an actual Deep Color pattern on an actual calibration disc that demonstrates the effect, I'm going to class "deep color benefit" as "mythical, never observed in the wild."

The pattern should be easy: just low-contrast gradient ramps in different colors. With normal processing it will show banding and with Deep Color less, right?

-Bill

Seeing the benefits (or lack thereof) on single color ramps is almost impossible to do by eye -- keeping in mind the source content in any chart is only going to be 8 bits per component anyway. The gradient has to move across the color spectrum as well as across the brightness range. This is why traditional test charts are so bad at showing this. What's needed is more of a step pattern too, as single or even double pixel wide defects are going to be hard to spot. If Deep Color is working well, you should be able to step swatches by small enough amounts that the step points should not be obvious. Now steps in any single color SHOULD be obvious. It's when you mix steps of different color mixes that the eye blends it. And that's where you can see if Deep Color is producing a better blending or not -- through all the processing stages in your video chain.

I actually think that test scene in "Ratatouille", Blu-ray, does a pretty good job. If you can't see a difference with different settings then it doesn't matter. If you CAN see a difference then the odds are good the setting combo that looks best really will be best across a range of content.

Once again, the source data is only 8 bits per component (24 bits per pixel). So Deep Color (up to 32 bits per pixel) can only populate the additional bits by "rounding" results of video processing on the source content. And seeing improved rounding is always going to be tough.

That said, it is *STILL* important to at least *CHECK* this, as far too many hardware devices have BUGS that cause them to screw up with specific settings choices in the input. And those sorts of errors WILL be visible! So the first thing to do is to make sure you are not using a settings combo that causes your AVR or display to screw up.
--Bob
post #15332 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Until there is an actual Deep Color pattern on an actual calibration disc that demonstrates the effect, I'm going to class "deep color benefit" as "mythical, never observed in the wild."

Theoretically, any chain that has multiple video processors could benefit "in the wild" if they all support Deep Color correctly. For example, the Oppo sends out RGB in 0-255, prefect as on the disc. An intermediate video processor (or even the QDEO) processes the signal for grayscale calibration, color, contrast, sharpening, etc. Its result, say it converts value Green 100 to 100.5 and green 99 to 99.4. These are 1.1 difference, but because the chip has to output 0-255, it rounds 99.4 to 99 and 100.5 to 101. Now the color difference is 2 instead of 1.1. Very minor but nevertheless, inaccurate, and could actually be detectable on a ramp. The numbers are rounded and the accuracy is lost in the video processor before it gets to the display.

Now if everything in the chain is using 12 bit (0-4095) instead of 8 bit, the rounding accuracy is so much better that its beyond human perception (8 bit is already on the edge of perception, not everyone can see the difference).

That's in a perfect world too. An ideal display would take a perfect, source direct input in the range 0-255 but do all its calibration, brightness, contrast calculations with whatever resolution the actual panel is capable of displaying (most new TVs today can actually drive their LCD/Plasma/etc. panels with 12 bits of resolution or more). However, if your display's internal video processor does the same thing as an external processor (ie, it only does 8 bit calculations on 8 bit input), then it could benefit as well if 12 bit input causes better resolution in processing. Add to that bugs/errors/cheats in deep color processing/display, and the bottom line is you have to test it for yourself on the entire path through the system.

I would also add, if you use the QDEO for any processing like sharpening or noise reduction, you should test with deep color on/off for all QDEO setting combinations you use. And likewise if you use multiple settings on a VP or display.
post #15333 of 26581
^ In my testing I've not found a case where the "correct" choice of Color Space and Deep Color settings for the default QDEO Picture Adjustment settings became "incorrect" when you started shifting the QDEO adjustments.

Do you have an example where you found you had to change Color Space or Deep Color because you moved some of the Picture Adjustments away from their default (0) values?
--Bob
post #15334 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

As an experiment, does turning 24p off make a difference?

I'll try the next movie in 60p, but 1) Its worked fine until recently, 2) People buy the JVC RS40 because it delivers a great film-like 24p image, 3) I haven't heard of this on the RS40 thread, and 4) I'm not willing to give up 24p.

Also, if the issue is a single HDMI output frame, its much easier to see on 24p. At 60p, it would result in a 2-3 cadence becoming a 3-2 cadence instead, which would be a lot harder to detect.

I recall that this problem happened and was discussed in this thread, and the source of the problem was found, only issue is when I search for it I can only seem to find complaints about skipping with Netflix/Youtube/Vudu/DNLA, which dominate this thread. I'm hoping someone can remember to save the likely lengthy troubleshooting with Oppo, but if not I'll just contact them.
post #15335 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I've not found a case where the "correct" choice of Color Space and Deep Color settings for the default QDEO Picture Adjustment settings became "incorrect" when you started shifting the QDEO adjustments.

Do you have an example where you found you had to change Color Space or Deep Color because you moved some of the Picture Adjustments away from their default (0) values?

No example, just theoretical. A theoretical example is that with all settings at 0, there is no difference, so someone enables Deep Color. But then, when noise reduction for Netflix or sharpening for DVD is enabled, the output actually has data in the lower bits and artifacts could potentially show up. But again, it would be very minor and probably only visible on a very well calibrated display.

However, thinking about it more, I do imagine it would be very difficult to attribute the artifact to Deep Color and not the sharpening or noise reduction
post #15336 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

...That said, it is *STILL* important to at least *CHECK* this, as far too many hardware devices have BUGS that cause them to screw up with specific settings choices in the input. And those sorts of errors WILL be visible! So the first thing to do is to make sure you are not using a settings combo that causes your AVR or display to screw up.
--Bob

Most passionate, emotional, animated paragraph by Bob EVAR! If he was speaking instead of typing, his arms would be flailing up & down and side to side.
post #15337 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobearQSI View Post

I'll try the next movie in 60p, but 1) Its worked fine until recently, 2) People buy the JVC RS40 because it delivers a great film-like 24p image, 3) I haven't heard of this on the RS40 thread, and 4) I'm not willing to give up 24p.

Also, if the issue is a single HDMI output frame, its much easier to see on 24p. At 60p, it would result in a 2-3 cadence becoming a 3-2 cadence instead, which would be a lot harder to detect.

I recall that this problem happened and was discussed in this thread, and the source of the problem was found, only issue is when I search for it I can only seem to find complaints about skipping with Netflix/Youtube/Vudu/DNLA, which dominate this thread. I'm hoping someone can remember to save the likely lengthy troubleshooting with Oppo, but if not I'll just contact them.

Check what you are getting off the disc for input (lower right of the Oppo on screen Info display). See if the problem discs are showing /25, /50, or /24.000 instead of /23.976.

Also check your TV System setting in the Oppo. Try Multi.

And check whether you are using Source Direct or Auto output instead of explicit 1080p. Explicit 1080p with TV System Multi is probably what you want.
--Bob
post #15338 of 26581
Thread Starter 
Input frame rate can be an issue. I know I had major frame errors when watching The Lives of Others and Little Big Soldier with Source Direct. These two films use 24Hz rather than 23.976H.

Setting the player to 1080p with 24Hz Output disabled resolved the increased judder with these two titles.
post #15339 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Check what you are getting off the disc for input (lower right of the Oppo on screen Info display). See if the problem discs are showing /25, /50, or /24.000 instead of /23.976.

Darnit, already sent back to Netflix. I'll pay attention next time I see the error, but I'm pretty sure Sweeny Todd (Dreamworks) and Sucker Punch (Warner Bros.) were 23.976 as they are both major US films from major studios.

I'm at forced 1080p w/ 24 enabled, but I'm probably NTSC and not multi. I'll check and see if that helps.
post #15340 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobearQSI View Post

I recall that this problem happened and was discussed in this thread, and the source of the problem was found, only issue is when I search for it I can only seem to find complaints about skipping with Netflix/Youtube/Vudu/DNLA, which dominate this thread. I'm hoping someone can remember to save the likely lengthy troubleshooting with Oppo, but if not I'll just contact them.

Okay, after much searching and sifting, I did find the posts (bluej511 and others had this same judder issue with Blu-rays), but unfortunately there was no resolution.

I guess I'll take this to Oppo support after trying the things suggested here. I'll post any significant findings.
post #15341 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

The 4810CI definitely supports 3D pass-through, so most likely there's just a setting that needs to be tweaked somewhere - setting video to pass through on the Denon is a very likely place to start after confirming that a direct connection to the TV (bypassing the receiver) is working.

I asked the question in the receiver section and the answer is no, the 4810CI does not support 3D pass through, only the XX11 series do, regardless what their website says.
post #15342 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by md1953 View Post

I asked the question in the receiver section and the answer is no, the 4810CI does not support 3D pass through, only the XX11 series do, regardless what their website says.

No problem. Run HDMI 1 direct to the display and HDMI 2 to the Denon for audio.
--Bob
post #15343 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by md1953 View Post

I asked the question in the receiver section and the answer is no, the 4810CI does not support 3D pass through, only the XX11 series do, regardless what their website says.

Ugh - silly me, assuming that the info on their website was accurate . But that's a pretty serious piece of misinformation they have up there for some customers. In your case, it may not be a big problem since you picked a player with dual HDMI outputs. But if you have other 3D sources you care about or have issues running the 2nd HDMI cable, it could be a big deal.
post #15344 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

No problem. Run HDMI 1 direct to the display and HDMI 2 to the Denon for audio.
--Bob

No problem says Bob!!! It's a ceiling mounted projector and since I was so forward thinking, I couldn't image ever needing two HDMI cables there
post #15345 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by md1953 View Post


No problem says Bob!!! It's a ceiling mounted projector and since I was so forward thinking, I couldn't image ever needing two HDMI cables there

Might be easier to replace your AVR?

In the interim, an HDMI switch might suffice to share that one cable for video output from the OPPO and from the Denon (for your other sources).
--Bob
post #15346 of 26581
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by md1953 View Post

I asked the question in the receiver section and the answer is no, the 4810CI does not support 3D pass through, only the XX11 series do, regardless what their website says.

One thing you may want to check is that you do not have the receiver set to an explicit output resolution. It is possible that if you set the receiver to THROUGH for HDMI Video, that it will be able to pass 3D. If the receiver were set to an explicit resolution, it may disable 3D pass-through.

Worth trying before you start rewiring your equipment.
post #15347 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

One thing you may want to check is that you do not have the receiver set to an explicit output resolution. It is possible that if you set the receiver to THROUGH for HDMI Video, that it will be able to pass 3D. If the receiver were set to an explicit resolution, it may disable 3D pass-through.

Worth trying before you start requiring your equipment.

I agree as many have reported on other forums being able to pass 3D video signal on a pass through setting in a Av for HDMI in and out.I am going to test my Yamaha 3900 when I get everything set up.Apparently a 3800 does.
post #15348 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobearQSI View Post

I've recently been experiencing the frame skipping issue that I'm sure I've seen posted about here before.

Here's a crazy idea to try, if you're rich and you want to investigate stuff such as judder.

Usually our eyes/brain aren't good enough to accurately grasp exactly what's happening, because it happens so quickly. But now, there are cameras that can help. E.g. here's a $264 Casio that can capture up to 1000 fps. It's minuscule resolution, and it's probably time limited. But it could be a lot better than the Mark I eyeball that people generally use.

I don't own a Casio, and am not about to buy one just for that feature, but I always thought it would be neat (for someone else) to analyze video display using a technique like that.
post #15349 of 26581
Will my Oppo stream mp3's from my PC via wireless? I currently have a PC/Laptop wireless network in my home.

When I installed the player I skipped the wireless network set up piece and have just been using it for BD/DVD/SACD/CD's up to this time.

We don't have NetFlix/Oppo capability yet (Canada), and some of the other USA services (Pandora).

But it would be convenient to stream rather than download to a usb from the PC to use in the Oppo (which I've done on rare occasions).
post #15350 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrummer View Post

Will my Oppo stream mp3's from my PC via wireless? I currently have a PC/Laptop wireless network in my home.

Yes. You need to run a DLNA server on your PC. See the FAQ linked in my signature for notes and links.

-Bill
post #15351 of 26581
Concerning DLNA:

My Samsung TV (C6700 series) is being recognized by Windows 7 as a device, and I can play movies/music/pictures on the Samsung by right-clicking on the file in Windows Explorer and choose the "Play to ..." menu, in which the Samsung is listed. Then the TV playback and even the TV volume can be controlled both with the TV remote and the Windows Mediaplayer DLNA interface (a small window with playback controls). That is more convenient than browsing the computer files on the Samsung itself, since the file doesn't even have to be in the media library of the DLNA server.

I have two other DLNA devices in my network, the Oppo 93 and a streaming client Asus O!play Air. I can browse and play the DLNA-shared files with them, but the "Play to ..." function is not available, as those two are not listed as playback devices in the device manager.

Is that a limitation of the Oppo's DLNA functions, or is there a way to make it work?
post #15352 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ornette View Post

Concerning DLNA:

My Samsung TV (C6700 series) is being recognized by Windows 7 as a device, and I can play movies/music/pictures on the Samsung by right-clicking on the file in Windows Explorer and choose the "Play to ..." menu, in which the Samsung is listed. Then the TV playback and even the TV volume can be controlled both with the TV remote and the Windows Mediaplayer DLNA interface (a small window with playback controls). That is more convenient than browsing the computer files on the Samsung itself, since the file doesn't even have to be in the media library of the DLNA server.

I have two other DLNA devices in my network, the Oppo 93 and a streaming client Asus O!play Air. I can browse and play the DLNA-shared files with them, but the "Play to ..." function is not available, as those two are not listed as playback devices in the device manager.

Is that a limitation of the Oppo's DLNA functions, or is there a way to make it work?

No, there is no way to control the player's DLNA function except from the player itself.

-Bill
post #15353 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Yes. You need to run a DLNA server on your PC. See the FAQ linked in my signature for notes and links.

-Bill

Thanks. My searches were turning up bits and pieces, and I was getting there, but this clinches it.
post #15354 of 26581
Just wanted to pop in & say how happy I am with My 93 & what a superb player it is. I also do streaming via the Oppo (Wireless) NetFlix and am very pleased with the performance. I've had the player for 8 Months & any little glitches have been taken care of with the software upgrades. Maybe it's My age showing but I still get a "Gee Whiz" feeling when I turn on the player & it informs Me that an update is there & waiting.
post #15355 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Gremlin View Post

Usually our eyes/brain aren't good enough to accurately grasp exactly what's happening, because it happens so quickly. But now, there are cameras that can help. E.g. here's a $264 Casio that can capture up to 1000 fps.

Well, unfortunately, I'm not rich

But, I am a little more trained on this in that I have to be able to see this kind of judder for my job, so I do know what it looks like. If the video is 24fps, a 60 fps camera like an old video camera should be good enough, and I was actually planning to use it the next movie I watch. I do have a 250 fps I could borrow from work, but if the issue is what I think it is (one 24fps frame lost) then it 60 fps should be good enough.

Also, I saw it happen again last night on a 3D disc, Drive Angry 3D which was 23.976. I plan on capturing a video and then going to Oppo.
post #15356 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ornette View Post

Concerning DLNA:

My Samsung TV (C6700 series) is being recognized by Windows 7 as a device, and I can play movies/music/pictures on the Samsung by right-clicking on the file in Windows Explorer and choose the "Play to ..." menu, in which the Samsung is listed. Then the TV playback and even the TV volume can be controlled both with the TV remote and the Windows Mediaplayer DLNA interface (a small window with playback controls). That is more convenient than browsing the computer files on the Samsung itself, since the file doesn't even have to be in the media library of the DLNA server.

I have two other DLNA devices in my network, the Oppo 93 and a streaming client Asus O!play Air. I can browse and play the DLNA-shared files with them, but the "Play to ..." function is not available, as those two are not listed as playback devices in the device manager.

Is that a limitation of the Oppo's DLNA functions, or is there a way to make it work?

You Samsung TV should carry a "Win 7 Compatible" logo somewhere, a new DMR function which needs microsoft certification. However, i believe 93 can only function as DMP instead of DMR, which means no external device could control its DLNA streaming.
post #15357 of 26581
My initial foray into using media file as source for DVD movies has been rather disappointing so far.

I ripped a couple of DVDs to a WD HDD using DVDFab in various formats (vob, avi, iso, mkv) and played thru my 93 which is set to Source Direct. This is connected via HDMI to the Anthem D2v which does the video/audio processing.

Compared to viewing from disc, the picture was consistently softer. I expected vob files should at least result in similar picture quality since this is the same file found on the disc itself.

Is this a fact, or have I forgotten some crucial setting somewhere in the 93?

Ben
post #15358 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by benleeys View Post

My initial foray into using media file as source for DVD movies has been rather disappointing so far.

I ripped a couple of DVDs to a WD HDD using DVDFab in various formats (vob, avi, iso, mkv) and played thru my 93 which is set to Source Direct. This is connected via HDMI to the Anthem D2v which does the video/audio processing.

Compared to viewing from disc, the picture was consistently softer. I expected vob files should at least result in similar picture quality since this is the same file found on the disc itself.

Sounds a little odd. If DVDFab is re-encoding the video, you'll probably notice a difference, but the ISO file should be exactly the same as the original disc, unless DVDFab is using compression (to fit a DVD9 onto a DVD5, for example) by default.
Try making sure the ISO file is an uncompressed copy. You can also try using MKVMerge GUI to simply remux the VOB files (pick one and it will automatically add the others) to an uncompressed MKV file. Again, the quality should be identical.
post #15359 of 26581
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrummer View Post

Will my Oppo stream mp3's from my PC via wireless? I currently have a PC/Laptop wireless network in my home.

When I installed the player I skipped the wireless network set up piece and have just been using it for BD/DVD/SACD/CD's up to this time.

We don't have NetFlix/Oppo capability yet (Canada), and some of the other USA services (Pandora).

But it would be convenient to stream rather than download to a usb from the PC to use in the Oppo (which I've done on rare occasions).

MP3's...merde

You will get beter quality streaming lossless codecs such as flac or wav and yes with the oppo you will be bale to tell the difference
post #15360 of 26581
Umm, Netflix on the 93 and the 95 DOES work in Canada with the current OPPO firmware.
--Bob
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