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Official OPPO BDP-93 Owner's Thread - Page 772

post #23131 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Those $20 downloads are high bit rate, so better quality than a CD.
Wow, where are the getting the audio to produce higher bit rates for all those albums? Straight from the recording studios?
Quote:
Originally Posted by scirica View Post

^ This. I'm not going to go crazy on them but I can think of a few albums I'd like to hear in the high bit rate. Steely Dan Gaucho comes to mind. (and is currently downloading).
Good album, I have it on both DVD-A and SACD. I believe both are higher bit rates than these HDTracks FLAC files and they both cost me less than $20.
post #23132 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_r_ View Post

Wow, where are the getting the audio to produce higher bit rates for all those albums? Straight from the recording studios?
Good album, I have it on both DVD-A and SACD. I believe both are higher bit rates than these HDTracks FLAC files and they both cost me less than $20.

I may invest in the SACD for comparison's sake as I'm just getting into audiophile-quality downloads with my Oppo and Athem MRX-500 combo. This is mostly just the geek in me. Downloads were from HDTracks.

Does your SACD display a bit rate when you play it on the Oppo? I'm assuming it would.

Wait...I suppose SACD is a 1-Bit DSD at a very high sampling rate. I guess that would equate to a better reproduction.
Edited by scirica - 9/19/12 at 6:02pm
post #23133 of 26588
The hometheaterreview.com article said the 103/105 would be available in December. Do you guys think it will actually be that long?

I'm wrapping up my theater, hopefully in time for my to be 5 year old daughter's birthday in early December, and didn't notice this situation until a couple of days ago after all the refurbs were gone, argh!

DD
post #23134 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by scirica View Post

I may invest in the SACD for comparison's sake as I'm just getting into audiophile-quality downloads with my Oppo and Athem MRX-500 combo. This is mostly just the geek in me. Downloads were from HDTracks.
Does your SACD display a bit rate when you play it on the Oppo? I'm assuming it would.
Wait...I suppose SACD is a 1-Bit DSD at a very high sampling rate. I guess that would equate to a better reproduction.
It is a MUCH higher bitrate, and it also provides something FLAC files cant, something ridiculously huge and extremely worth it: MULTI-CHANNEL!!!
post #23135 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by scirica View Post

I may invest in the SACD for comparison's sake as I'm just getting into audiophile-quality downloads with my Oppo and Athem MRX-500 combo. This is mostly just the geek in me. Downloads were from HDTracks.
Does your SACD display a bit rate when you play it on the Oppo? I'm assuming it would.
Wait...I suppose SACD is a 1-Bit DSD at a very high sampling rate. I guess that would equate to a better reproduction.

I purchased Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon SACD when I got the Oppo...... I also have the CD, hand down the SACD was superior, it is phenominal!! I would buy everything on SACD if they made it. I dont know anything about Flac or and HD downloads. I guess i need to do some research.
Edited by vkowalski1970 - 9/19/12 at 7:08pm
post #23136 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_r_ View Post

It is a MUCH higher bitrate, and it also provides something FLAC files cant, something ridiculously huge and extremely worth it: MULTI-CHANNEL!!!

http://flac.sourceforge.net/faq.html#general__channels

Actually, FLAC can encode up to 8 channels per stream. However, not all devices that claim to decode FLAC can handle multichannel encodes.
post #23137 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrettJB View Post

http://flac.sourceforge.net/faq.html#general__channels
Actually, FLAC can encode up to 8 channels per stream. However, not all devices that claim to decode FLAC can handle multichannel encodes.
I dont know a single one that does, which is why I posted that...
post #23138 of 26588
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeaconDan View Post

The hometheaterreview.com article said the 103/105 would be available in December. Do you guys think it will actually be that long?
The BDP-103 will be out in October-November (most likely October, but this is entirely up to the software. I would error towards October than November at this time). BDP-105 will be later this year or early next year.
post #23139 of 26588
I have Gaucho both in SACD and DVD-A. Both are 5.1.

FLAC is capable of 5.1: iTrax downloads are 5.1 96/24 and can be taken as PCM or FLAC.

SACD may be at a much higher bit rate, but it's not necessarily superior to DVD-A's PCM in my opinion, since the recording studios impose a fairly sharp cutoff at around 50Hz to avoid square-wave problems, which is all that a 1 bit sample can express.

Would someone please explain how 1 bit sampling can do anything? What is the yes or no question it is answering? The only answer to that I've ever heard is "Is it louder than it was in the last sample?" But if so, how much louder - 1 bit can't tell you, no matter how often you ask the question.

Nor can it tell you if the sound is the same or quieter.

I don't believe that it really is 1 bit - or that it really is at megahertz sampling rates. The description packed in with the disks is, as Commander Riker said of Kosinski's formula, "Gibberish." [ST:TNG "Where No One Has Gone Before" 1st season]

At least with DVD-A disks and the PCM they carry, you know what you're dealing with.

As to the question about HDtracks' downloads versus CDs:

CDs are sampled 44,100 times per second, and the signal strength is expressed as a 16 bit number (the shorthand is 44/16), allowing for about 64,000 values, or a dynamic range of 64,000:1. Under the Nyquist rule, the top frequency is half the sampling rate, or 22,050Khz.

That's pretty good, but the HDtracks downloads, which are sampled from stereo analog master tapes from the recording studios using audiophile electronics, can range from standard CD to 192/24, for a top frequency of 96Khz. Most of their downloads are 24 bit, which allows for a dynamic range in the millions to one, for a smoother gradient that's more "analog" sounding.

-Phil
post #23140 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

I have Gaucho both in SACD and DVD-A. Both are 5.1.
FLAC is capable of 5.1: iTrax downloads are 5.1 96/24 and can be taken as PCM or FLAC.
SACD may be at a much higher bit rate, but it's not necessarily superior to DVD-A's PCM in my opinion, since the recording studios impose a fairly sharp cutoff at around 50Hz to avoid square-wave problems, which is all that a 1 bit sample can express.
Would someone please explain how 1 bit sampling can do anything? What is the yes or no question it is answering? The only answer to that I've ever heard is "Is it louder than it was in the last sample?" But if so, how much louder - 1 bit can't tell you, no matter how often you ask the question.
Nor can it tell you if the sound is the same or quieter.
I don't believe that it really is 1 bit - or that it really is at megahertz sampling rates. The description packed in with the disks is, as Commander Riker said of Kosinski's formula, "Gibberish." [ST:TNG "Where No One Has Gone Before" 1st season]
At least with DVD-A disks and the PCM they carry, you know what you're dealing with.
As to the question about HDtracks' downloads versus CDs:
CDs are sampled 44,100 times per second, and the signal strength is expressed as a 16 bit number (the shorthand is 44/16), allowing for about 64,000 values, or a dynamic range of 64,000:1. Under the Nyquist rule, the top frequency is half the sampling rate, or 22,050Khz.
That's pretty good, but the HDtracks downloads, which are sampled from stereo analog master tapes from the recording studios using audiophile electronics, can range from standard CD to 192/24, for a top frequency of 96Khz. Most of their downloads are 24 bit, which allows for a dynamic range in the millions to one, for a smoother gradient that's more "analog" sounding.
-Phil

Very stupid newbie question.....what I can store these down loads on? Will the oppo read from an external hard drive?
post #23141 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_r_ View Post

I dont know a single one that does, which is why I posted that...

The Oppo BDP-93 has no problem decoding my 5.1 FLACs from iTrax, which I have served over my LAN by oShare, which relieves me of the necessity of burning them to disk - though I made DVD-As from them to play in my Denon 2910 before I got the Oppo.

-Phil
post #23142 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by vkowalski1970 View Post

Very stupid newbie question.....what I can store these down loads on? Will the oppo read from an external hard drive?

The Oppo can read them from just about anywhere: USB flash drive, external hard drive, burned to DVD as files, burned to DVD-A by Cirlinca, or - and easiest of all, served over your local area network by any UpNp or DLNA server. I use the free, flea-weight oShare. If you search this thread for my recent posts you'll see my descriptions of how I do that. If you organize a firewire hard drive on your host pc the way I describe, you can turn it into a music jukebox. I've gone so far as to arrange the folders by artists' or composers' last names, or band names, and by album under that, and just browse my jukebox drive by folder.

Most downloaders and rippers can be told to download into folders arranged by artist name and album - so I only have to change the artist folder name to last name first (or move the album folder into an existing artist folder) and I'm done.

-Phil
post #23143 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

The Oppo can read them from just about anywhere: USB flash drive, external hard drive, burned to DVD as files, burned to DVD-A by Cirlinca, or - and easiest of all, served over your local area network by any UpNp or DLNA server. I use the free, flea-weight oShare. If you search this thread for my recent posts you'll see my descriptions of how I do that. If you organize a firewire hard drive on your host pc the way I describe, you can turn it into a music jukebox. I've gone so far as to arrange the folders by artists' or composers' last names, or band names, and by album under that, and just browse my jukebox drive by folder.
-Phil

Thank you!!!
post #23144 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_r_ View Post

I dont know a single one that does, which is why I posted that...

Huh? I have thousands of multi-channel flac files ripped from DVD-A, SACD and BD and they all play flawlessly on the Oppo. You can also play them on a pc using Foobar, JRMC, Winamp, MediaMonkey, or other software programs, or stream them using many different media streamers.
post #23145 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_r_ View Post

I dont know a single one that does, which is why I posted that...
To echo the sentiment of others, I haven't played/found a multil-channel FLAC that the Oppo CAN'T play in glorious multichannel lossless. wink.gif
post #23146 of 26588
PS For remote access to my music, I currently use Plex, logged into the myPlex server. Any copy of the Plex player that knows your login can play your music over the net - but this won't work smoothly for high-bitrate stuff. Stick to 44/16 flacs and mp3s for doing this over the net.

Another alternative might be to use Orb, but Plex is so damn pretty, with its automatic fetching of artist photos and bios from Last FM.

Both Plex and oShare run all the time, referencing the same folder of music files.
Edited by Philnick - 9/20/12 at 5:45am
post #23147 of 26588
Public Beta Firmware 0908B Now Available For European Model, BDP-93EU and BDP-95EU Players

http://www.oppo-bluray.co.uk/customer-services/firmware/

OPPO UK has now posted the Public Beta 0908B firmware files for the European Model players.
--Bob
post #23148 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

To echo the sentiment of others, I haven't played/found a multil-channel FLAC that the Oppo CAN'T play in glorious multichannel lossless. wink.gif

Except when it is included in an mkv. :-(
post #23149 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

The Oppo BDP-93 has no problem decoding my 5.1 FLACs from iTrax, which I have served over my LAN by oShare, which relieves me of the necessity of burning them to disk - though I made DVD-As from them to play in my Denon 2910 before I got the Oppo.
-Phil

Quote:
Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

Huh? I have thousands of multi-channel flac files ripped from DVD-A, SACD and BD and they all play flawlessly on the Oppo. You can also play them on a pc using Foobar, JRMC, Winamp, MediaMonkey, or other software programs, or stream them using many different media streamers.
I stand corrected gentlemen. I guess I was not as educated on the matter as I first thought. Unfortunately most of the music iTrax has in 5.1 isnt really stuff I know Ill it still gives me hope and more to research and look into. Now if I cant figure out how to get my Logitech Squeezebox Touch to stream 5.1 FLACs Ill really be happy!
post #23150 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben_r_ View Post

I stand corrected gentlemen. I guess I was not as educated on the matter as I first thought. Unfortunately most of the music iTrax has in 5.1 isnt really stuff I know Ill it still gives me hope and more to research and look into. Now if I cant figure out how to get my Logitech Squeezebox Touch to stream 5.1 FLACs Ill really be happy!

iTrax is the download site of AIX records, which is a recording studio as well as publisher of disks. Unfortunately, artists and their managers haven't beaten a path to their door, as the route to fame and fortune still entails going through one of the major record companies.

Mark Waldrep, known on AVS as Dr. AIX, is a talented and dedicated recording engineer of long standing, who was one of the pioneers of DVD-A, and is now pioneering 3D concert disks on Blu-ray in 5.1 96/24 surround.

You'll find a few well-known musicians in his catalog, but not the biggest names. His recent push into 3D Blu-ray may intrigue some of them, but if so I expect that the recordings he does of them would be released on the major labels, not his.

David Chesky's HDtracks has the advantage of being allowed to resample into high bitrate stereo analog mixdowns of famous albums, which AIX has argued publicly on its site don't have enough high frequency content to justify high bitrate releases.

I personally think that Waldrep and Chesky should try to team up and sweet-talk the big labels into giving them access to copies of the digital multitrack masters so that releases could be made that don't have to go through an analog step first, and would thus unarguably be sufficient to justify the high bit rates - with the potential of being released in surround - so some fence-mending would be needed, but it would would be a good way forward for both of them and all of us.

-Phil
Edited by Philnick - 9/20/12 at 8:21am
post #23151 of 26588
It would be great to see more emphasis on downloadable hi-rez surround music. HDtracks has said in the past they will consider it, but haven't so far. Burning Shed has made a few surround downloads available. If ELP, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Tom Petty, Lynyrd Skynyrd, etc. are still being re-released on disc in surround and they seem be finding a market, why can't there be more surround downloads?

AIX records does a great job, it's just that their catalog is very limited. What I have bought from them has been top-notch.
post #23152 of 26588

Using my BDP93 to play an M2ts file on my computer via Network

I have a 28GB M2ts file on my computer that I'm trying to play from my BDP93 via the Network. The BDP93 doesn't see the file. Is there a limit to what size the M2ts file can be?
Is there some other reason?
post #23153 of 26588
I have a 25GB M2TS file that plays fine from my WD MyBook via USB. I don't play them from my computer to Oppo.
post #23154 of 26588
Thread Starter 
Ensure that your DLNA server supports m2ts/ts files. Use something like oShare which is just a dummy server that will display all compatible file formats to the player.
post #23155 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

I have Gaucho both in SACD and DVD-A. Both are 5.1.
I don't believe that it really is 1 bit - or that it really is at megahertz sampling rates.
It is, and it is.
Quote:
The description packed in with the disks is ... Gibberish. At least with DVD-A disks and the PCM they carry, you know what you're dealing with.
And someone who doesn't know how audio sampling works won't know what they're dealing with just as much as you don't know what you're dealing with on SACD. Just because you don't know, doesn't mean everyone doesn't know and someone is making all of this stuff up for marketing.

A lot of dimmable LEDs are actually 1 bit. They are either on, off. But by switching them on and off so fast, with different amounts of on time and off time, you can create many smooth levels of brightness perceived by the human eye - thus you can easily use 1 bits to express different levels of brightness. 5 on 1 off is brighter than 4 on 2 off. The faster your ability to switch on and off, the more levels of brightness you can achieve (or in audio, more levels of volume, like classic 16-bit vs. 24-bit). This is where the megahertz sampling rates come in. If you think if it in terms of electricity, with 1 being full electricity/volume, and 0 being full off, then the analog ouput of an SACD DAC is sort of like the running average of the amount of electricity. I've heard it said it is approximately comparable to 24 bit 88 kHz audio (per channel).

The DACs in the 93 are capable of directly converting the digital SACD 1-bit stream into analog output.
post #23156 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobearQSI View Post

It is, and it is.
And someone who doesn't know how audio sampling works won't know what they're dealing with just as much as you don't know what you're dealing with on SACD. Just because you don't know, doesn't mean everyone doesn't know and someone is making all of this stuff up for marketing.
A lot of dimmable LEDs are actually 1 bit. They are either on, off. But by switching them on and off so fast, with different amounts of on time and off time, you can create many smooth levels of brightness perceived by the human eye - thus you can easily use 1 bits to express different levels of brightness. 5 on 1 off is brighter than 4 on 2 off. The faster your ability to switch on and off, the more levels of brightness you can achieve (or in audio, more levels of volume, like classic 16-bit vs. 24-bit). This is where the megahertz sampling rates come in. If you think if it in terms of electricity, with 1 being full electricity/volume, and 0 being full off, then the analog ouput of an SACD DAC is sort of like the running average of the amount of electricity. I've heard it said it is approximately comparable to 24 bit 88 kHz audio (per channel).
The DACs in the 93 are capable of directly converting the digital SACD 1-bit stream into analog output.

What you're saying is entirely plausible - but it bears no resemblance to the marketing inserts in my SACD jewel boxes, which explain the system as sampling the signal millions of times per second and recording at each moment whether the volume is greater than it was at the previous moment. That's not describing an output method like you're talking about, it's describing a measuring system.

As a measuring system, the marketing description I'm paraphrasing simply can't work. There's a little thing called the slope of a line. Yes, it may be going up, but unless you know at what angle off the horizontal, you don't know if it's a gentle rise or a rapid spike.

There has to be some intermediate stage at which the amplitude is measured before being encoded as a ratio of pulses.

I grant that what you're describing makes sense and I'm perfectly happy to accept that's how it works - but it's not what what they tell the consumer in those marketing inserts, which are what I'm calling gibberish.
post #23157 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

What you're saying is entirely plausible - but it bears no resemblance to the marketing inserts in my SACD jewel boxes, which explain the system as sampling the signal millions of times per second and recording at each moment whether the volume is greater than it was at the previous moment. That's not describing an output method like you're talking about, it's describing a measuring system.
As a measuring system, the marketing description I'm paraphrasing simply can't work. There's a little thing called the slope of a line. Yes, it may be going up, but unless you know at what angle off the horizontal, you don't know if it's a gentle rise or a rapid spike.
There has to be some intermediate stage at which the amplitude is measured before being encoded as a ratio of pulses.
I grant that what you're describing makes sense and I'm perfectly happy to accept that's how it works - but it's not what what they tell the consumer in those marketing inserts, which are what I'm calling gibberish.
The marketing information is simplified, but basically accurate. Remember that the samples are being taken at a much higher frequency than the signal. If there is a sharp rise, most (or all) of the bits encoded during that rise will be 1s, as the slope decreases, the encoding contains more zeros.
post #23158 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredthe View Post

The marketing information is simplified, but basically accurate. Remember that the samples are being taken at a much higher frequency than the signal. If there is a sharp rise, most (or all) of the bits encoded during that rise will be 1s, as the slope decreases, the encoding contains more zeros.

This whole discussion reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live set piece at the fast food restaurant where the the answer to "How many are having?" is relayed to the kitchen not as "three cheeseburgers and three orders of chips" but as "cheeburger, cheeburger, cheeburger, chips, chips, chips."

"I'll have an egg salad sandwich"

The irony of a 1 bit system is that it forfeits the great advantage of binary notation: being able to encode large numbers in a few bits.

Try this experiment. Starting with your right pinkie, go across both hands assigning a doubling to each finger until you get to the other pinkie:

1, 2, 4, 8, 16 - next hand - 32, 64, 128, 256, 512.

With the fingers on your two hands, calling a finger up a 1 and a finger down a 0, you can thus express a number up to 1,023 (all fingers up).

You may be able to win a bet in which you wager that you can count up to a thousand on your fingers in one pass across your hands - not many people understand this.

Doing that by pulsing 1 bit numbers is a lot less space-efficient for storage.

A 16 bit number can express a value up to 65,535, a 24 bit number can express a value up to 16,772,215.

It would take a lot more space to say that in ones.

-Phil
Edited by Philnick - 9/20/12 at 2:39pm
post #23159 of 26588
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

Try this experiment. Starting with your right pinkie, go across both hands assigning a doubling to each finger until you get to the other pinkie:
1, 2, 4, 8, 16 - next hand - 32, 64, 128, 256, 512.
I often count like that, and have been known to show others what the number 4 looks like biggrin.gif

There are trade-offs to both systems. With the 1-bit systems filtering is greatly simplified, as is the electronics. This is likely why Sony chose it for the SACD format. With an n-bit DAC, you need to be very precise in generating the correct output voltage, this is not trivial especially at very low signal levels.... this is why the -95 (and -105) cost much more; they are using a more accurate DAC.

There is more to it than that, it doesn't take 65,535 ones to represent a 16 bit amplitude, there are some compression effects in the scheme. Look up Delta-Sigma Modulation for the sausage-making details.

Personally I prefer PCM Formats, but at the time SACD was developed hi-resolution DACS were expensive, and it was a compromise to get better audio at a reasonable cost.
post #23160 of 26588
Guys, there are audio theory and disc format subforums where the SACD discussion might be more appropriate...
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