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The Sony VPL VW90ES 3D Owner's Thread - Page 10

post #271 of 1323
12/7/10 at 1:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post
Regarding VW90's ANSI CR. In Cinema3 mode with the light meter sensor at 70 cm from lens, ANSI CR was 286:1. Measuring from screen using light meter's 8-point averaging (8 measurements from both black and white squares of the checkerboard) the ANSI was only 141:1, but light bouncing from the screen into the room and back on the screen is partly responsible for the result.
You could pretty much get rid of that problem by hanging black sheets over the screen for this test, although you might have to measure out from the screen a little bit so light doesn't bounce off you and create too much of a problem. I put together boards with black velvet over them and a hole big enough to let maybe half the light through from one rectangle in that test while blocking the whole rest of the image. Then I just move the board around for each rectangle or have a friend do that.

By covering the screen with something dark and measuring fairly close I can get close to full ANSI CR measurements even in a white room.

Conan,

IIRC, Ekkehart's on/off CR comment was up to 20k:1, or something like that.

--Darin
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post #272 of 1323
12/7/10 at 5:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post
Sahara is widely available. The FPD Benchmark disc is from a Japanese friend of mine; I haven't seen it on sale anywhere.


CR measurements are very simple, and it's quite difficult to eff them up unless you're using incorrect or faulty equipment. One likely explanation for difference in results is that I measure with zoom set for maximum image width, iris fully open and Dynamic Iris disabled (i.e. native on/off CR). Cinema3 mode also defaults to High lamp power so that's what I used. Change any of those variables and you'll get different results from mine.


Nope. Might have received it today but it's the Finnish Independence Day today so everyone's off home drinking beer.
Hi,

I have a carada 1.4 88" screen and wondering what is the ideal distance to set up my projector from the screen.

Should I set it up as close as possible, set for maximum width as pteittinen has done? The way my room set out I am quite flexible on the distance the projector is from the screen.

I have already painted the front wall and ceiling flat matt black and the side walls will be matt dark red. I have also purchased an x-large back rug to go on the floor infront of the screen

I will be setting up my home cinema room/positoning my vpl-vw90es when I return home from work later this month so I hope you guys can help me out

Thanks in advance
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post #273 of 1323
12/7/10 at 5:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
You could pretty much get rid of that problem by hanging black sheets over the screen for this test
Actually, I have a roll-up screen in my "lab" and the wall behind it is painted with the reflection-minimizing paint. I usually roll the screen up for ANSI cr measurements when measuring at screen distance but I guess I was too busy (as in lazy) to do that this time. The close range measurement was done earlier and the screen was rolled up for that, just in case.
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post #274 of 1323
12/7/10 at 7:34am
Yeah I got a great deal on the VW90 in Canada. Almost cost price from a friend who knows a Sony employee. The name Sony has a lot more value then JVC, especially from people who don't come to AVS You have to remember that JVC is really a crap brand. They make crap LCDs, and their market share is non-existent (wheres my cell tv) The only thing they make that is good are their projectors, and professional monitors, which to the average person doesn't mean much. As any of your friends (regular people) if they had to choose between a Sony or JVC projector, which would they buy?

Also, Darinp mentioned that the Red fringing issue is almost non-existent on the RS50 but then says that the overall motion resolution is worse then the RS25 Coupled with the noise issue, it looks like JVC may have nuked the fridge. I guess I'll probably keep my 10 000.00 projector.
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post #275 of 1323
12/7/10 at 10:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Yeah I got a great deal on the VW90 in Canada.

Yeah, I got a great deal too. For me, it's the first time it's worth something buying my projector in Canada.

By the way, I put my hand on the blu ray of Avatar 3D

Now I really cant wait to receive my new Sony...
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post #276 of 1323
12/7/10 at 12:42pm
Got my X103 at last, and wow, much better than the Sony on multiple points:
- Significantly brighter
- Colors seem more neutral with PJ at the brightest temp (medium), while the sony is a little greenish
- Greater optical quality, much less internal reflections, giving an improved contrast perception
- No light bleeding between the lcd and the frame
- Lighter and more comfortable, with choice of nose pieces
- Better field of view

The low/mid/high setting simply doesn't work. I'm leaving it at medium. As others have said, it is equally bright on all setting, and from what I see, it really looks like the effect of that setting is a shifting of the window forward or back (causing severe ghosting at low), while the correct behavior should be narrowing the window instead. I disassembled the thing and there's a nice PIC16 controller in there, maybe someone adventurous could make a custom firmware to add the correct brightness behavior... or we could ask xpand to add it...

No improvement on ghosting compared to the sony on medium setting. The sony at low setting has less ghosting than the X103 at any setting, but is very dim.
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post #277 of 1323
12/7/10 at 1:20pm
There's hope for a firmware update on the X103, this is on their website:
Quote:
Firmware upgrades for XPAND Active 3D Glasses
Come back around February 15 2011, when firmware upgrades are planned.
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post #278 of 1323
12/7/10 at 5:28pm
Guys - not great news...

I am finding the 90es has worse motion handling than the 85, including evidence of the red green fringing I so despised with the HD750.

It comes into play with the various Film Projection modes - with no DFI, I don't see red/green fringing at all. But with Mode 2 on the 90 es it is there, and motion handling does not seem as crisp as the 85. With mode 3 or 2 on the 85, it is not there - much cleaner.

I did a crude side by side comparison of the two, and I've attempted to show this with a video from my iphone and some still captures. It is much more evident in live viewing, but when I post, I think you can still see what I'm talking about.

I should have the video and images posted shortly. This seems like a processin/panel issue, not optical. I cannot keep this. What a bummer...
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post #279 of 1323
12/7/10 at 5:39pm
Ok, here are some still shots and a link to two videos. For the videos you will need quicktime installed, and as with the stills, watch as the camera pans past the blue lines on the ice...

The issue is more evident in person than these stills of videos can capture...


VPL-VW85




VPL-VW90




Videos:
http://gallery.me.com/gbastug#100395
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post #280 of 1323
12/7/10 at 5:58pm
How's the convergence on a grid pattern?

BTW The pictures are good enough to see what you are talking about BUT those are the worst quality screen shots ever posted in the history of AVS. You are to be congratulated.
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post #281 of 1323
12/7/10 at 6:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

How's the convergence on a grid pattern?

BTW The pictures are good enough to see what you are talking about BUT those are the worst quality screen shots ever posted in the history of AVS. You are to be congratulated.

Convergence on the 90 is worse, but I did correct electronically before shooting this.

This reminds me exactly of the JVC red/green fringing issue. It's not as bad, but bad enough. It smells like panel/processing...not optics.

From the king of half-assed/inverse compliments, I accept your congratulations! (to be fair, the stills are video screen grabs as freeze framing wouldn't work...
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post #282 of 1323
12/7/10 at 6:46pm
I think your projector may be defective? I just watched some of the Buffalo game and saw no hint of green or red fringing. I had motion enhancer on high and film projection on mode 2. I wasn't really watching the game just looking at edges when the camera moved and couldn't ever see red. The only tme I saw a hint of red fringing was when I set my HTPC to 24hz and then turned on film projection mode 2 and durring Scott Pilgrim when the white letters scroll up the screen durring the park scene when he goes on his first date I think I saw a hint of red trail. Never saw anything with 60hz signals.
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post #283 of 1323
12/7/10 at 6:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

I think your projector may be defective? I just watched some of the Buffalo game and saw no hint of green or red fringing. I had motion enhancer on high and film projection on mode 2. I wasn't really watching the game just looking at edges when the camera moved and couldn't ever see red. The only tme I saw a hint of red fringing was when I set my HTPC to 24hz and then turned on film projection mode 2 and durring Scott Pilgrim when the white letters scroll up the screen durring the park scene when he goes on his first date I think I saw a hint of red trail. Never saw anything with 60hz signals.

Anything's possible - but this would be a odd defect, as the panel speed and/or processing is what, from my understanding, leads to this kind of artifact. I'm hard pressed to see how a processor or panel has that kind of manufacturing or build variance, as opposed to, say, optical misalignment or lens aberrations.

Really, the best I can say it is reminds me of the JVC issue I had with the HD-750.

Now, there are new panels in the 90es, correct? I think someone posted a while back that they are in part achieving a brighter image by a finer/tighter wire grid (please correct me if I'm not recalling correctly...) They also changed the Motionflow processing, as there are only two Film Projection modes in the 90, three in the 85. And frankly I didn't see any improvement in FI over the 85; it may have been a hair worse...(the telltale tearing on fast motion objects). Nothing severely different, but not better than the 85...
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post #284 of 1323
12/7/10 at 11:39pm
The only time I've even seen a hint of red fringing is with 24p mode and BFI set to mode 2. At the begining of Inecption where Dicaprio is running out of the building when it's collapsing you can see a slight red fring on the lamps. However I looked for the same issue throughout all of Batman and saw no fringing. With 60p content like I assume you are watching for Hockey I could not reproduce red fringing and I was looking for it specifically for over a 2 hour period watching sports (tons of UFC, and strikeforce, and some hockey) Im so bothered by fringing that I can't even watch a plasma which suffers from phosphor lag, which shows up as green fringing.

I also did a ton of testing today with 24p and DFI mode 2. WOW. I can't live without this mode The motion on 24p sources is so amazing with mode 2 that I stare at the screen in awe at how amazing things look. The motion exceeds that of my vt20 panasonic.

Also watched so 2D animated stuff with FI set to high and DFI mode 2 and again my jaw hit the floor. Im getting better picture on my Sony then my Benq DLP I owned in terms of motion and overall detail. I've NEVER EVER seen a non DLP machine do better animation until now.

Also, watched some more animated stuff in 3D with FI set to high and after getting used to the FI now and trying to toggle it off is a no go. FI + animation + 3D = melted eyeballs. It enhances the 3D effect to the next level. Also had the lamp set to low by accident and noticed the ghosting was almost completely gone with glasses set to medium. I watched about a half hour of Despicable Me until I noticed the picture was slightly dimmer then I was used to but it was still acceptable. Setting lamp to high did add more pop, but also increased crosstalk a bit. I think once your eyes adjust you stop worrying about how dim the image is and just enjoy the 3D effect. Of course the best combo would probobly be setting the Sony glasses to low and getting an HP screen.

I also should have the Xpand glasses tomorrow and hopefully I'll like them better then the Sony ones.

I was trying to find a reason all day today to not want the Sony and return it for the JVC but I just couldn't find one reason too Now with reports of noise in the JVC image and red and green flashing with the Black frame insertion mode. I think I made the right decision.

It probably doesn't matter as Epson or Panasoinic will release a projector that is both better for 2D and 3D then the Sony or JVC early next year
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post #285 of 1323
12/8/10 at 3:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by omicronian View Post

No improvement on ghosting compared to the sony on medium setting. The sony at low setting has less ghosting than the X103 at any setting, but is very dim.

Drop VW90 lamp brightness to Low, and X103 has (slightly) less ghosting than Sony glasses. The image should still be bright enough due to X103 blocking less light.
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post #286 of 1323
12/8/10 at 3:45am
Got tracking on my Demo unit!...Yahoo!...Can't wait... Should have it Saturday.
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post #287 of 1323
12/8/10 at 4:31am
Sould we be looking at the line on the ice to see this fringing? I think I see it. I don't think that I would ever have noticed it had I not been looking for it.

B/T/W, I hate to take the crown away from you but I am sure that I have seen worse looking screen shots on AVS before.
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post #288 of 1323
12/8/10 at 4:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Sould we be looking at the line on the ice to see this fringing? I think I see it. I don't think that I would ever have noticed it had I not been looking for it.

B/T/W, I hate to take the crown away from you but I am sure that I have seen worse looking screen shots on AVS before.

Yes, the fringing on either side of the blue line as the camera is panning.

It is more evident in normal viewing as opposed to these video and screen grabs, as is the overall feel of blur during motion as compared to the 85 which I still have.
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post #289 of 1323
12/8/10 at 4:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

The only time I've even seen a hint of red fringing is with 24p mode and BFI set to mode 2. At the begining of Inecption where Dicaprio is running out of the building when it's collapsing you can see a slight red fring on the lamps. However I looked for the same issue throughout all of Batman and saw no fringing. With 60p content like I assume you are watching for Hockey I could not reproduce red fringing and I was looking for it specifically for over a 2 hour period watching sports (tons of UFC, and strikeforce, and some hockey) Im so bothered by fringing that I can't even watch a plasma which suffers from phosphor lag, which shows up as green fringing.

I also did a ton of testing today with 24p and DFI mode 2. WOW. I can't live without this mode The motion on 24p sources is so amazing with mode 2 that I stare at the screen in awe at how amazing things look. The motion exceeds that of my vt20 panasonic.

Also watched so 2D animated stuff with FI set to high and DFI mode 2 and again my jaw hit the floor. Im getting better picture on my Sony then my Benq DLP I owned in terms of motion and overall detail. I've NEVER EVER seen a non DLP machine do better animation until now.

Also, watched some more animated stuff in 3D with FI set to high and after getting used to the FI now and trying to toggle it off is a no go. FI + animation + 3D = melted eyeballs. It enhances the 3D effect to the next level. Also had the lamp set to low by accident and noticed the ghosting was almost completely gone with glasses set to medium. I watched about a half hour of Despicable Me until I noticed the picture was slightly dimmer then I was used to but it was still acceptable. Setting lamp to high did add more pop, but also increased crosstalk a bit. I think once your eyes adjust you stop worrying about how dim the image is and just enjoy the 3D effect. Of course the best combo would probobly be setting the Sony glasses to low and getting an HP screen.

I also should have the Xpand glasses tomorrow and hopefully I'll like them better then the Sony ones.

I was trying to find a reason all day today to not want the Sony and return it for the JVC but I just couldn't find one reason too Now with reports of noise in the JVC image and red and green flashing with the Black frame insertion mode. I think I made the right decision.

It probably doesn't matter as Epson or Panasoinic will release a projector that is both better for 2D and 3D then the Sony or JVC early next year

I wish I could say the same - my screen shots are the msg-hd 1080i/60 broadcast via my Directv HR24. I'm hoping someone with technical knowledge can confirm that this could be an optical issue so I feel better about exchanging rather than returning, as I think s problem in the realm could be a more one-off defect...but it points to the panel performance/processing as described to me when I saw the same thing with the HD750.
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post #290 of 1323
12/8/10 at 4:57am
Are those shots from the same game?

Just to make sure it is not the source, I would run the same plays from the same DVRd game on both projectors.
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post #291 of 1323
12/8/10 at 5:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Are those shots from the same game?

Just to make sure it is not the source, I would run the same plays from the same DVRd game on both projectors.

That's EXACTLY what those shot are - DVR'd, with the 90 es and 85 side by side, same settings, connected to the dual outputs of my AVR with no video conversion active....I crudely masked half of each projector image and watched side by side, then took these videos and screen grabs.
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post #292 of 1323
12/8/10 at 5:35am
It does not seem optical to me. Optical defects would be present elsewhere, or at least I think they would.

It does not seem to be a convergence issue. With the blue line like that, I would expect maybe a single pixel kind of shadow. This is much more than that.

My guess (just a guess) is that Sony is driving the panels differently with the aim of increasing brightness. JVC is doing the same. Each frame is actually composed of many different sub-frames, with alternating black sub-frames and subframes that show the image. I am guessing that Sony changed its pattern of black subframes to image sub-frames by reducing the number of black frames. This may cause problems. Maybe the new pattern does not permit the panels to properly refresh becasue maybe the panels need a greater percentage of rest time (off time) to properly reset. This may be hidden most of the time because images generally don't move that much. Also, Hockey is played on white ice. A white border/background presumably makes this issue more apparent because the colors are more visible over white.

So maybe an engineering tradeoff? More light traded for artifacts that will particularly annoy Canadians and other hockey lovers but won't bother most other people?

What we need is Darin's high speed camera to capture some video and slow it down to show the sub-frames. He did this with the JVCs and a DLP and it was really cool to see.
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post #293 of 1323
12/8/10 at 6:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

It does not seem optical to me. Optical defects would be present elsewhere, or at least I think they would.

It does not seem to be a convergence issue. With the blue line like that, I would expect maybe a single pixel kind of shadow. This is much more than that.

My guess (just a guess) is that Sony is driving the panels differently with the aim of increasing brightness. JVC is doing the same. Each frame is actually composed of many different sub-frames, with alternating black sub-frames and subframes that show the image. I am guessing that Sony changed its pattern of black subframes to image sub-frames by reducing the number of black frames. This may cause problems. Maybe the new pattern does not permit the panels to properly refresh becasue maybe the panels need a greater percentage of rest time (off time) to properly reset. This may be hidden most of the time because images generally don't move that much. Also, Hockey is played on white ice. A white border/background presumably makes this issue more apparent because the colors are more visible over white.

So maybe an engineering tradeoff? More light traded for artifacts that will particularly annoy Canadians and other hockey lovers but won't bother most other people?

What we need is Darin's high speed camera to capture some video and slow it down to show the sub-frames. He did this with the JVCs and a DLP and it was really cool to see.

This is my concern - even if I swap my unit because of the poor optical convergence, this issue doesn't go away.

I will say watching the 90 and 85 side by side, the overall motion of the 85 seems smoother/less blurred than the 90.
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post #294 of 1323
12/8/10 at 6:43am
My guru, UMR, can you shed some generic opinion on this? Thanks...
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post #295 of 1323
12/8/10 at 6:47am
The vw85 shots have ringing and are less blurry. The vw90 shots have less ringing but are blurry.

Seems like the sharpness control is your friend. Using sharpness will makes things sharper but add the ringing. Not using things leaves things a bit blurrier. This is a matter of taste, IMO.
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post #296 of 1323
12/8/10 at 6:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

The vw85 shots have ringing and are less blurry. The vw90 shots have less ringing but are blurry.

Seems like the sharpness control is your friend. Using sharpness will makes things sharper but add the ringing. Not using things leaves things a bit blurrier. This is a matter of taste, IMO.

Sharpness was the same on both, 15. This generally was the best setting looking at prior test patterns.
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post #297 of 1323
12/8/10 at 6:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Sharpness was the same on both, 15. This generally was the best setting looking at prior test patterns.

You might want to play with it a little on the chance that it might look better with actual content.

That's quite a bit of ringing in those vw85 shots (if your camera is capturing what it going on correctly). Much less in the vw90.
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post #298 of 1323
12/8/10 at 7:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

My guru, UMR, can you shed some generic opinion on this? Thanks...

Sounds like Sony has degraded motion handling in these new products. These are a new panel design. Maybe they are more like JVC than before.
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post #299 of 1323
12/8/10 at 7:16am
thrang. I don't know what to tell you. I watched more hockey on a different channel. Montreal was playing and the whole time I focused on the blue lines to see if their was any fringing. There was not even a hint. I know exactly what fringing looks like. Even my vt Panasonic which uses you fast green phsophors has green fringing in hockey material.

There is obviously something wrong if you get it and I don't have it at all. Wait for Joe or some of the others to test also. Hockey is the best sport to see it on. I usually look at the jersey, or helmet on fast pans against the white ice will usually show fringing. I guess the lines on the ice would be good too.
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post #300 of 1323
12/8/10 at 7:20am
Quote:


Sounds like Sony has degraded motion handling in these new products. These are a new panel design. Maybe they are more like JVC than before.

.....and you base that on one persons opinion? I'm sure Omicron, or Joe can do the hockey test also and report. I find the motion exceptional to any display I've tested.
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