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TruVue Vango - Owner's Thread - Page 8

post #211 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

Maybe in the MKII version of the Vango? Is there a product update coming anytime soon or is it a long way off?

One is hopeful, but it's rather discouraging that dlp pj's have shown very little improvement in native o/f CR in the last 4-5 yrs, an eternity in AV developments. (They've been relying on 'dynamic black'.)

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #212 of 731
I doubt we will ever see a Dark Chip 5. I suspect we will se a 2.35 chip because that could I expect be cut from existing sheets. But the market for DLP chips is miniscule and the costs are extremely high. I doubt TI even has the right people to do it any more. Far easier I expect to double up LEDs, drivers, and power supplies buy you would need a bigger more expensive machine. The market for high output LEDs in the colors needed miniscule also. The answer will be laser driven.
post #213 of 731
So we have seen various measured lumens in this thread, if I was going to use the high brightness mode, with the color box, calibrated to a point where the colors were not overly saturated (as D65 is not possible due to the white point being too high)...

What kind of lumen output are we talking? 600-700? 700-800?
post #214 of 731
Daniel-
There is a lot of confusion about the light output of this projector. We may never know how Jason was able to measure the lumens he did. The impact of EE color box on brightness is still an unknown. Unless you can fly to the US to see one, you're going to have to rely on the experiences of people who own and use a Vango. I'll try to help you by explaining what I've seen in the week I've had the Vango.

I've no way of measuring the lumens on my projector. My previous projector measured a bit over 500 lumens at its brightest (with a new lamp). It could be an Emperor's New Cloths effect (in that I want to believe I made a wise purchase), but I'm surprised how much brighter the Vango seems to me than that old projector ever did. For example, I just re-watched How to Train your Dragon and during the initial evening scene there are a few moments where the whole screen gets filled with flames. The transition from dark to flames is so sudden, and the flames are so bright, that I literally flinched the first time it happened. I never had that reaction with my previous projector, but have it happen several times with the Vango.

I bought into the theory of LED projectors because the light output should remain steady for years and years. I watch about 10 movies a week and hate that lamps dim so quickly on me as they age. Getting a steady 500-600 lumens, or possibly more if you play with the settings and have the color box, seems more valuable to me than having bulbs with lots of light at first that then fades so quickly. One other benefit of a steady light output is that you can design your theater appropriately.
post #215 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post

So we have seen various measured lumens in this thread, if I was going to use the high brightness mode, with the color box, calibrated to a point where the colors were not overly saturated (as D65 is not possible due to the white point being too high)...

What kind of lumen output are we talking? 600-700? 700-800?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

Took another look at the Vango today and figured some stuff out.

First, the issue we observed with its clipping high-level detail and a dramatic fall off in gamma response above 50% input are related. The Vango shares a bug with the SIM2 Mico 50 in which these symptoms occur when feeding the projector a YCbCr input. If you feed it a RGB input, these problems disappear. Most Blu-ray players and cable boxes allow you to select either output mode.

Second, we confirmed the light output. If you want a D65 image with a flat gamma response at or above 2.2 and a Rec. 709 gamut, you are looking at 400 lumens +-10%. I was able to get 540 lumens out of it, but not with those performance specs.

BTW, the Vango light output is about on par with the JVC RS40 in low lamp mode when new, and the Vango's light output will remain stable for years of normal use.

i'd have to go with tom's measurements. For comparison, my RS50 with a brand new lamp puts out 517 D65 calibrated lumens. After 210 hours, it is now 360 lumens, also D65 (had to pull out even more green/blue since red is going bye-bye quickly).

There is a chance I will see 300 or under in a few hundred more hours unless the lamps stabilizes. The issue here is, I like a bright image. I have a 142" 2.8HP and the 360 lumens is still ok for now because I have the projector at near eye level for max gain.

I would be thrilled with consistent 500+ D65 calibrated lumens. My next projector will be an LED, I will just wait since I am done with UHP lamps losing red, brightness (35% drop after only 200 hours)

If the Vango was 8k and had 3D I would have bought it in a second over the JVC.
post #216 of 731
Hi Guys. I would reinterate that the EE color box does not add increased contrast in the terms of increased lumens to the projector. The box does include a CMS (buyt the projector also includes one) and does allow the precise setting of a 2.2 gamma curve (but I find the 2.2 curve ib the machine is essentially spot on) it deals with changing the colors under certain circumstances. there are a variety of table available for down load and new tables are developed from time to time. The basic tables for use with a LED projector deal with the expanded or normal color gamut of an LED machine. This is wider thasn a standard bulb gamut although tables can be downloaded for those to set the projector up with a bulb gamut (called standard vs normal or native LED). The normal situation with be using the EE maximum color mode. The other is the EE maximum brightness mode. Both modes are in the projector and can be selected without having the box. But the box improves upon those modes by correcting the colors to compensate for room lighting (from dark to Light)/ Look at it this wasy. You are outside looking a particular scene). Now you go into a dark hut and look out through an opening to view the scene. The scene lighting hasn't changed, but your eyes under dark hut conditions, sees the colors differently. The box brings the colors to the way ypu would see them if you were in the same lighting as the scene. One has three choices, dark, medium, and bright room lighting. Something like that I forget the exact names. These tables will seem to be selectable if one doesn't have the box, but they are not there and selecting them doesn't do anything. The other set of tables is for the maximum brightness mode. That mode moves the colors quite a distance from where they would be if calibrated to d65. The box takes some of those colors of which your brain says are way wrong from memory and makes them right. Such as flesh tones. Actually, with the box in high brightness mode the picture is quite watchable and the color errors are for the most part non bothersome. Now I never watch in high brightness mode. Why. The damn thing is way too bright, it hurts my eyes and I have a 36 sq ft screen with a measured gain of about 1.0.


Now I normally watch my Vango in standard or lamp gamut, I don't like the expanded gamut of LED machines. So I use the lamp based tables which I have loaded into my box. My choice. I am a rec 709 kind of guy. But I could watch it with the native or expanded LED color space and with those tables loaded into my box. More colorful. The colors grab you and make the normal lamp based look a little drab in comparison.

I can watch most anything. Everything I do is dset up right and everything (all projectors I have) put out quite watchable pictures. Some are better than others. But I watch. I wanna watch. I don't wanna screw around endlessly. Its March madness time and there are games to watch. And I turn the Vango on and watch and it looks just the same as it did a month ago. Do I want it to do something better? Nope. Its just fine for me. I do feed it with my Lumagen and I occasionally will use something in the Lumagen to fit a particular picture like the contrast enhancement set to one to slightly whiten the ice for a hockey game.. I will shut that off for a movie.
post #217 of 731
OK... Thanks for the responses, I do appreciate the time that has gone into writing.

So, I can assume that if I ran this in high brightness mode with the ee color box, it may not be D65 but flesh tones would still look - mostly accurate and highly watchable -

I guess I must be really confused now - the high brightness mode: does this actually produce more lumens or is it some clever color calibration mode of the EE box? If it does actually produce a birghter image, has anyone actually measured it?
post #218 of 731
Mark: I am with you on being a 'std 709 guy', but my main question is how does the Vango compare to a JVC on a movie like Dark Knight, i.e., does its lesser native o/f keep up with the JVC on the depth of pic etc.? Looking forward to my visit with you to see!
post #219 of 731
It is much brighter in EE maximum brightness mode. Its not a trick. It puts out a lot more lumens. Based on my meter, about 20% more.
post #220 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

One is hopeful,

Looks like we both don't have to hope for to long. CM in the thread below has mentioned their is a new LED projector coming in the short term-

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post20124153

Quote:
Originally Posted by coldmachine View Post

No, there are new machines due in the short term, hence the announcement about the design and development investment. I will give you any info when possible.


Though he may have only been refering to a new Sim2 LED projector coming even though he quoted a post refering to both Vango & Sim2. Either way it will be interesting to see if these have the contrast improvements we are looking for and if it is only a new Sim2 LED, then hopefully we will get it via the Vango brand at a reduced price once again.

Could finally be a replacement for my trusty Marantz VP15S1.
post #221 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spizz View Post

Looks like we both don't have to hope for to long. CM in the thread below has mentioned their is a new LED projector coming in the short term-

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post20124153




Though he may have only been refering to a new Sim2 LED projector coming even though he quoted a post refering to both Vango & Sim2. Either way it will be interesting to see if these have the contrast improvements we are looking for and if it is only a new Sim2 LED, then hopefully we will get it via the Vango brand at a reduced price once again.

Could finally be a replacement for my trusty Marantz VP15S1.

Like you, I am certainly interested to see what appears. The thing I'm pessimistic about is that even with the very desirable led illumination, dlp pj's haven't made much progress in o/f CR in quite a while. I know that many think that 'dynamic black' is just as good as native o/f CR, but I'm not convinced. Seems like TI is just not interested in pushing the dlp technology.
post #222 of 731
No. TI is not. Improvements in DLP projectors will come from elsewhere than the chip.
post #223 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

It is much brighter in EE maximum brightness mode. Its not a trick. It puts out a lot more lumens. Based on my meter, about 20% more.

Thanks for the response, that makes things a lot clearer as to what could be expected, I'll get to saving...
post #224 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

No. TI is not. Improvements in DLP projectors will come from elsewhere than the chip.

Does this mean we will never see a consumer 4k chip from TI ?
post #225 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.P View Post

Does this mean we will never see a consumer 4k chip from TI ?

TI have a well established roadmap for consumer 4k. The 4k technology platform offers improvements in addition to resolution. Those will also find thier way into 1080 DMDs simply due to rationalization of the manufacturing process. 2012 is the currently expected target.

Ive been fortunate enough to have seen the new 4k DLP DCIs on a number of occasions. The difference between them and the, poorly performing, LC based 4k machines is significant and very readily apparent.
post #226 of 731
Thanks!
post #227 of 731
My comments re TI were directed to improvements in consumer DLP chips. TI is simply not interested in the consumer DLP chip market any longer. 4K is not for consumers. Will it trickle down? Commercial venues, simulation, etc do not depend on things like high on off that we want. Increased on off is a consumer marketing chase and flat panels have killed the DLP as a consumer device except in the tiny segment of projectors.
post #228 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

...I know that many think that 'dynamic black' is just as good as native o/f CR, but I'm not convinced...

IIMU that the Vango shares the same Chillin ODM platform as the SIM2 Mico so the following quotes may be also valid for the Vango.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

Darin, I just don't see anything that jumps out at me saying that the RS35 does it better. It is possible that there is a scene, but I am not aware of it. I have AVP 1 but not 2.

To my eye, the fades to black are total. My retina is not the fastest at adapting to the dark, so it is possible that there is some light, but it sure looks like a complete shut down to me.

I have watched a lot of very dark material, and have not been disappointed by the performance of the Mico, and have not once wanted to switch back to my RS35, which is hanging underneath it, just ready to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Free View Post

I spent some time yesterday, viewing both of those titles, and I would say that, in my opinion, the Mico 50 dark scene contrast exceeds the RS35, and is at least as good as the Lumis.

There is a great scene in Dark City, "Shell Beach" where you go from a very dark scene, to a very bright scene, and both the dark, and the bright scene are about as stunning as I have ever seen them on any projector. Also, coming out of that dark scene, as the door opens, and the dock stretches out in front of you, the sense of depth of the bright scene is truly spectacular.

I suspect the latest generation of pjs are at the point where we should be more concerned with on screen contrast instead of on/off contrast measurements
post #229 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

IIMU that the Vango shares the same Chillin ODM platform as the SIM2 Mico so the following quotes may be also valid for the Vango


I suspect the latest generation of pjs are at the point where we should be more concerned with on screen contrast instead of on/off contrast measurements

Thanks HHF; I remember Free's reports and they do sound great, though other observations I've read suggest that even the best dlp's fall short of the JVC's in some imp PQ attributes, which is usually attributed to the latter's higher native CR.

Fortunately, I'm going to be in the DC area the first week of May, and Mark Haflich has kindly invited me to stop by and see a Vango (hopefully in direct comparison to a JVC), so I hope to be able to see how they strike me. (Since I'm a much less sophisticated and knowledgeable viewer than many of you here, I imagine that I will be so highly impressed by both that it will be hard to see a preference!)
post #230 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

...Fortunately, I'm going to be in the DC area the first week of May, and Mark Haflich has kindly invited me to stop by and see a Vango (hopefully in direct comparison to a JVC), so I hope to be able to see how they strike me. (Since I'm a much less sophisticated and knowledgeable viewer than many of you here, I imagine that I will be so highly impressed by both that it will be hard to see a preference!)

I don't you are less sophisticated than most here, just more honest. Looking forward to reading your report of the comparison!!
post #231 of 731
I did a little more measuring and find about a 25% increase in going to EE max brightness mode.
post #232 of 731
I don't suppose any owners could post a couple of pics or a vid of the high brightness mode with some ambient lighting?

I do intend to demo one at some point but just to get an idea.
post #233 of 731
TI is still pushing the Consumer end of DLP, that isn't 4K or anything high-end though, but Pico HD, that new small 1280x800 chip that will be in the new consumer priced LED projectors (ACER, Dell, HP, Optoma, LG, Vivitek). Yes, these are dual use chips, like most/many of TI DLP chips sofar.
post #234 of 731
Well I've got 150 hours on my Vango and the quality of the picture it produces still delights me. It is just so smooth and natural looking. I don't know if the images are so pleasing because there is no color wheel involved and this gives better control over how the colors are mixed, if it is that the really good lens is providing extra detail, or if it is simply the LED light source, but there is something different about this projector.

Granted it may not have the world's best ON/OFF contrast, but in scenes with a mix of very bright and dark elements - the lighter stuff just jump off the screen and there is still plenty of detail in the dark areas. We just watched 'The Half Blood Prince' and even its darkest scenes were full of detail. I just love the idea that it will essentially look this bright next year, and the year after, and the year after...
post #235 of 731
Well it is settled, the Vango for me. Thanks to one of the AVSFourm family for opening his home. Only questions now involve a new AVR or Pre/Pro/Amp combo and DVDO or Lumagen. Still hate to give up the Denon AVR-5800 but have to do something for possible lip-sync issues.

Kevin
post #236 of 731
Ok you convince me.

How much do you want for your use Vango ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyrax View Post
Well I've got 150 hours on my Vango and the quality of the picture it produces still delights me. It is just so smooth and natural looking. I don't know if the images are so pleasing because there is no color wheel involved and this gives better control over how the colors are mixed, if it is that the really good lens is providing extra detail, or if it is simply the LED light source, but there is something different about this projector.

Granted it may not have the world's best ON/OFF contrast, but in scenes with a mix of very bright and dark elements - the lighter stuff just jump off the screen and there is still plenty of detail in the dark areas. We just watched 'The Half Blood Prince' and even its darkest scenes were full of detail. I just love the idea that it will essentially look this bright next year, and the year after, and the year after...
post #237 of 731
I have one real problem with this projector. It can't get here fast enough. After viewing the Vango at a generous forum member's house, my Dwin looks like crap.

Pulling the trigger in the next two weeks. Only variables left are in other parts of the system. The Vango is the one.

Kevin
post #238 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoKevin View Post

I have one real problem with this projector. It can't get here fast enough. After viewing the Vango at a generous forum member's house, my Dwin looks like crap.

Pulling the trigger in the next two weeks. Only variables left are in other parts of the system. The Vango is the one.

Kevin

The Dwin was a good performer in its day, but when all was said and done, they just couldn't evolve quickly enough to stay in the game. Let's hope that EE/Vango isn't another player in that never-ending story.
post #239 of 731
Help, guys: I'm finally going to get the chance in a few weeks to see a Vango set up in a good room (saw one at CEDIA, but it had heavy overhead lighting that seriously compromised the pic), likely in a direct comparison with a new JVC. I presently have a RS20, which I do like very much (projecting on a 126" 16x9 2.8HP screen, in a pretty good room), but I would always be happy with even more sharpness of single chip dlp, better motion handling, and of course the stable lighting of an led.

The main concern, of course, is how much the less o/f CR capability of the dlp compared to the JVC will matter. Can some of you recommend what you think would be the best test material to compare these two pj's? The one obvious one for me is the opening scene (below deck) in 'Master&Commander', to see what the resolution in these dark scenes is. 'Dark Knight' also immediately comes to mind. But what are some other good tests? Thanks in advance!
post #240 of 731
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

... what are some other good tests?

Sin City
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