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Dayton OmniMic Precision Measurement System - Page 68

post #2011 of 2086
Quote:
How does it currently sound, forgot to ask you.
I mean does it sound boomy, forward, bright etc.
Do you listen to music or movies in percentage.

I have really liked all the sound I'm getting, not too boomy, not too bright/forward when I skip toe-in with these new speakers. I think that since I don't always feel I've approached the RTA perspective, it could be better (tweaker reflex). I have also learned so much with placement and bass management, and changed my equipment so much that maybe not enough time has been spent to really stick with a few reference tracks and analyze it all. I have always been the one of all my friends that has been the best at this, but that means nothing to me at this point, just effectively approaching the best performance I can get and hopefully do it professionally as a side job sometime in the near future. I listen to movies/music @ 70/30.
Quote:
Does it have 11 filters for each channel or in total?

11 for each channel, including the subwoofer. It will prolly be tough having two split, but I will wait for that when we get there.
Quote:
Does your receiver have auto PEQ, level and distance settings?

Yes, it has their 2nd generation emo-q, which I hear is pretty darn accurate from my experience with levels and distance (except subwoofer has been off), but not sure how it will work with 2 subs split on the one channel it has. The auto-eq (emo-q) can also be changed after input. Then there is also 3 manual eq banks allowed with all the same options to change.

Gains levels are available (which I always spl before anything anyways). Distance settings are available in all.
post #2012 of 2086
Quote:
How does it currently sound, forgot to ask you.
I mean does it sound boomy, forward, bright etc.
Do you listen to music or movies in percentage.

So far, I've changed positions so much I haven't had a chance to digest any specific reference track listening. I have never seemed to find any of my listening to boomy or fatiguing as of yet though, except for too much toe-in. These mains have excellent imaging that no toe-in is really needed.

My movie/music preference has been 70/30.
Quote:
Does it have 11 filters for each channel or in total?

For each channel including sub, and also a 12/24 db slope in crossover setting besides the bass management. It only accounts for a single sub so Iill have to wait till we get there.
Quote:
Does your receiver have auto PEQ, level and distance settings?

Yes. PEQ can also be changed after done. There are also 3 manual eq banks with all the same settings. PEQ only accounts for one sub channel aswell.

All of these allow level/distance settings that get very granular instead of big increment.

* I have used the auto eq and liked the results, but sub distance was off as usual and I have not done it with the split sub channel dual config.
post #2013 of 2086
I will be taking measurements Monday, as everyone is noisy or watching a loud ass tv!
post #2014 of 2086
Had time for measurements today. I did frequency response (both mains, then left, then right,) and bass decay (both mains, then left, then right) for four different positions in 3 inch increments from parallel to tv then forward of the tv. Both speakers were equidistant from a center point of room and approximately a 1/5 from the side walls. (pictures are above)

AT each position, eq is disengaged (or flat), speakers are running full range, and set to spl of approx 75db before the tests.

*I did not have bass decay for 22 inch(first position) for any speakers, because I found out it was saved in .txt and was completely blank after I had already moved them to the next position.

*All measurements taken with all original calibrated file omnimic v2 package kit and mic with my laptop via usb
*1/12 smoothing

Both speakers Freq Response at 20.5,22,25,28,31,32.5 inches from wall






32.5inch

Right speaker Freq Response at 22,25,28,31,32.5 inches from wall





32.5 inch

Left speaker Freq Response at 22,25,28,31,32.5 inches from wall





32.5 inch

Both Speakers decay at 25,28,31,32.5 inches from wall (22 missing)





Right Speaker Decay at 25,28,31,32.5 inches from wall (22 missing)





Left Speaker Decay at 25,28,31,32.5 inches from wall (22 missing)






I could not load .frd files, but i have them if anyone would like to provide further analysis or filters for a parametric eq with 11 configurable bands, q gains, and frequency smoothing.
Edited by pnutbutter81 - 6/3/13 at 4:16pm
post #2015 of 2086
I was also curious if it would make sense to place speakers behind the distance of the tv screen, even though common sense would lead me to think it would ruin the imaging...

Also, if I do moved the speakers further up than 31 inches, the left side desk will be in the way, so I believe these are my only choices for now.


Amongst my many questions, with my higher than normal carpet, I am currently using a large measuring tape, a 6 inch professional level, and painters tape for stand and speaker placement. I am constantly finding no matter how well I start off with leveling my speakers on the stand before placement, they are always out of level and as a result can always be off when measuring distance from the wall to the cabinet after releveling again, causing countless lost time and hair pulling. Are there any better tools to invest in which can save some time or this is a matter of just doing the best? Maybe I should just mark off the floor instead of relying on the speaker as a reference... who knows, maybe I'm a perfectionist when trying to do this and that is a unavoidable obstacle I should consider. I see alot of the home alliance classes using Pro Audio tripods with mdf boards below the speakers.
Edited by pnutbutter81 - 6/2/13 at 1:28pm
post #2016 of 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnutbutter81 View Post

Had time for measurements today. I did frequency response (both mains, then left, then right,) and bass decay (both mains, then left, then right) for four different positions in 3 inch increments from parallel to tv then forward of the tv. Both speakers were equidistant from a center point of room and approximately a 1/5 from the side walls. (pictures are above)

AT each position, eq is disengaged (or flat), speakers are running full range, and set to spl of approx 75db before the tests.

*I did not have bass decay for 22 inch(first position) for any speakers, because I found out it was saved in .txt and was completely blank after I had already moved them to the next position.

*All measurements taken with all original calibrated file omnimic v2 package kit and mic with my laptop via usb

Both speakers Freq Response at 22,25,28,31 inches from wall





Right speaker Freq Response at 22,25,28,31 inches from wall





Left speaker Freq Response at 22,25,28,31 inches from wall







Both Speakers decay at 25,28,31 inches from wall (22 missing)




Right Speaker Decay at 25,28,31 inches from wall (22 missing)




Left Speaker Decay at 25,28,31 inches from wall (22 missing)






I could not load .frd files, but i have them if anyone would like to provide further analysis or filters for a parametric eq with 11 configurable bands, q gains, and frequency smoothing.


Was these taken with 1/12 octave smoothing, don't forget default is 1/6 octave smoothing?

The top one (22 inch) seems to give you the best response (notice less nulls in the bass region).

Post the corresponding 22 inch .FRD files for Both, Left And Right for the top files to suggest PEQ filters

Good to see with both playing those nulls (0 - 500hz) have decreased.

With a few PEQ filters (stereo filters) in the 0 - 500hz region should improve quite nicely..
I will post the Center Frequencies with Q and gain.

Peaks are easier to deal with than nulls.
Edited by Phillips751 - 6/2/13 at 3:26pm
post #2017 of 2086
Yes, all were at 1/12 smoothing. Also recheck, I just added 32.5 inch, .... let me know after that.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

I am understanding better now what you meant early on. I actually misunderstood what you meant. Now I see you mean 0-250hz is how the main channel speakers are playing with the room and the frequencies from 250-20,000hz is how the main channel speakers are playing on their own as a general rule?


I see the decay came down for the 32.5 inch away position for both speakers(the one i just added in my orginal posting), most likely due to the bass not being so reinforced, but doesnt support a best placement opposed to the frequency graphing.

I see 31/32.5 inch both channel freq having some smaller nulls(just added after you posted) in the 0-500hz, but rolling off at the end (500-20000hz) where I'm guessing the 22 inch still wins after?
Quote:
Post the corresponding 22 inch .FRD files for Both, Left And Right for the top files to suggest PEQ filters
This won't allow me to use a .frd extension file....? But I have it for all of those....maybe email?
Quote:
I will post the Center Frequencies with Q and gain.
For the Main channels right? Again, I can choose 11 from like 20something hz to as high as 20khz, which I think you already are aware of.

**Do you think I should try seeing Frequency response further back than 22 inch which would put the speaker planes behind the TV?**


I have also found out limits to input for the Equalizer optimizer, I think I've got the hang of it. but not sure of where I should place bandwidth limits (like 20hz-500/700) for first 6 then next 5 bands (totaling 11)

Limits on parametric eq as follows (for each channel, 11 configurable bands,also 12/24db slope):
freq: 20.27hz to 20,000 something hz
q: 0.25 to 24
gain (boost):-15db to +3db

When optimizing, should it be for both channels curve or for each channel optimized, then generating another measurement post optimization of each and redo again with both channels playing (optmized individually) again?
Edited by pnutbutter81 - 6/2/13 at 8:36pm
post #2018 of 2086
22 inch still appears to look the best to date.

By all means continue to experiment with positioning, but remember / mark where the 22 inch was.

Yep we are still on main channels.

You say the frd files can't be posted / attached?

Try txt files.

After i have the files and i give you the filers you can post back with what you can dial in as close as possible with the EQ filters are variable on your receiver.

i don't give out my email address.
post #2019 of 2086
both channels 22 inch.txt 17k .txt file

I'm going to put them back in that position and take measurements again. Then post the .txt files.
post #2020 of 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnutbutter81 View Post

both channels 22 inch.txt 17k .txt file

I'm going to put them back in that position and take measurements again. Then post the .txt files.


Can't download the txt file.

I will look at some possible filters to try.
post #2021 of 2086
Hey, Just added the 20.5 inch both channels freq response in my orginal graph posting (above the 22 inch one, a slight improvement over 22inch both channels freq dip in bass region I think?

both channels 20.5 inch.txt 17k .txt file
post #2022 of 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnutbutter81 View Post

Hey, Just added the 20.5 inch both channels freq response in my orginal graph posting (above the 22 inch one, a slight improvement over 22inch both channels freq dip in bass region I think?

both channels 20.5 inch.txt 17k .txt file


Yeah the 20.5 is an option, don't forget a slight movement in the mic can produce different results.

Overlay them both to see the best.

Maybe run the Auto EQ, you have given it something to work with, make sure the mics go in the same position.
You can take measurements say a foot or more around your listening position to get a broader listening area then average, but more work.
There are other options too but won't go in to this, maybe later.

I am not familiar with your receiver and the Auto EQ effect, no harm in trying can always turn it off.

If your EQ has different presets you cam use one as a reference and try to beat it so to speak, this is what i have done. Still haven't beaten it yet but still trying.

As in my previous post i can't download the txt file.

Another option (probably best) is to try Manual EQ (if Auto isn't to your taste).
1. Use the PEQ filter (finder) in the Omnimic software.
2. Adjust on the in real time.

I would prefer personally the latter.
With both options use the same filters 0 - 250hz for both channels (Left and Right).
That peak at 70 - 80hz should be bought down.
The higher frequencies look pretty good maybe have a look at the broad 1khz - 3 khz, but listen first, you might like it.

Then have a look at the results, you might want to start to use individual filters from there on or keep them together.
Edited by Phillips751 - 6/3/13 at 7:34pm
post #2023 of 2086
I tried to put it into word, even though it's 39 pages:)
both channels 20.5 inch.docx 21k .docx file
post #2024 of 2086
Add these to both Left & Right channels, keep them the same.

These are only approximate filters they will need fine tuning.
The frequencies will be close but the Gain and specially the Q will need to be adjusted.
Because you will measure again the mic will not be in the exact same position
This should get you started though.

Personally i still think the 22 inch is better, but this is according to taste.

The 1 - 3khz with the 20.5 inch has been boosted.

For both 22 inch what i have done is kept the trend of the high end because you like this part of the spectrum which slopes down which is ok because some people/rooms like it this way. To EQ this part can interfere with imaging.

I don't really think there is any need to EQ above the 500hz, the rest look ok. We can address this later if need to.

Does your recevier have Tone Controls e.g. Treble or Bass?

One thing is you will notice a reduction in bass but more detailed, you will get use to it. Note the 77hz peak.

There are commas to separate the info.

22 inch
Freq Gain Q
77 , - 8.6 , 4.3
123 , + 4.3 , 5.5
163 , - 5.1 , 6.1
257 , - 3.4 , 10.8
441 , + 6.0 , 15.7

20.5 inch
Freq Gain Q
77 , - 9.4 , 4.0
127 , 4.2 , 4.8
162 , - 4.9 , 3.9
222 , 9.0 , 3.7
233 , - 8.2 , 2.2
Edited by Phillips751 - 6/4/13 at 1:37am
post #2025 of 2086
Quote:
Personally i still think the 22 inch is better, but this is according to taste.

I will be moving to the 22 inch tonite, because I agree after reading into your reasoning.
Quote:
Does your recevier have Tone Controls e.g. Treble or Bass?

No, as a preamp the Emotiva UMC-200 has a biquad 11 band parametric EQ, and crossover/slope menu aswell, where you can adjust either12/24db slope for each channel individually.
Quote:
Because you will measure again the mic will not be in the exact same position
This should get you started though.

I have just left the mic in the same position, like a project at rest. So once I put in these adjustments to the eq, I will paste the according graph for you to also review.
Quote:
22 inch
Freq Gain Q
77 , - 8.6 , 4.3
123 , + 4.3 , 5.5
163 , - 5.1 , 6.1
257 , - 3.4 , 10.8
441 , + 6.0 , 15.7


Even though you have 5 listed, I do still have 6 more to adjust if needed....(up to you). My mediettes L/C/R are conservatively spec'd to 45 hz. But I will put less strain and for sure run them at 75-90hz bass managed, then keep the LFE topped at 100 or 90hz I'm thinkin. Ill wait till I find placement and test though.

When I was messing with omnimic equalizer window with optimization, it looked pretty similir for problem areas.

Any tips on what areas to section out when doing this? It seems since my speakers will most likely be bass managed around 80-100hz (where they seem to flatten out better), do 3-4 filters, then I should just set the range from there for more filter opportunity, then make most of the rest in between 250hz-1kz area...? I assumed with the limits I have on my Freq/Gain/Q sets that I should set maximum boost limit to +3db, and use auto. Maybe keep the o-3db slope range and db offest I wasn't sure about, but it seems I can slope up and down like you were commenting about when I moved it around (average slope grey line with eq optimizer). Hopefully some of this makes sense.
Edited by pnutbutter81 - 6/4/13 at 3:22pm
post #2026 of 2086
Quote:
Any tips on what areas to section out when doing this?

Stick with around the filters i have suggested specially the 0 - 250hz.

Some of the boosts might be not required / as much
Quote:
It seems since my speakers will most likely be bass managed around 80-100hz (where they seem to flatten out better), do 3-4 filters, then I should just set the range from there for more filter opportunity, then make most of the rest in between 250hz-1kz area...?

Don't worry about the bass management at the moment you need to get the mains good and see the result.
Quote:
I assumed with the limits I have on my Freq/Gain/Q sets that I should set maximum boost limit to +3db, and use auto.

Personally i would try the Auto EQ just to see what it produces, absolutely nothing to loose.
Keep in mind that your ears is the final listening test, you might like the Auto EQ sound it produces.
What you could do if allows is to use the Auto EQ then fine tune with the manual EQ.
Some Auto EQ work very well, but others don't. Do you know what it uses?
Quote:
Maybe keep the o-3db slope range and db offest I wasn't sure about, but it seems I can slope up and down like you were commenting about when I moved it around (average slope grey line with eq optimizer). Hopefully some of this makes sense.

I think i know, i tried to keep the same high end with the same slope when producing the filters.

Keep in mind i have rounded those filters off, so use as a approximates. You need to fine tune with the real time of the Omnimic.

You need to read the manual a couple of times to get the main features of the measurement system, bass decay etc.
Edited by Phillips751 - 6/5/13 at 2:09pm
post #2027 of 2086



Both Channels 22 inch after manual eq Revised

I used your values and then added 6 filters after some manipulation, seem pretty well within +/- 5 db for the majority...your thoughts?


Here is the Center channel (set distance, no moving):




Here are both Surround Channels (set on wall permanently, no moving):
Edited by pnutbutter81 - 6/6/13 at 2:45pm
post #2028 of 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by pnutbutter81 View Post




Both Channels 22 inch after manual eq Revised

I used your values and then added 6 filters after some manipulation, seem pretty well within +/- 5 db for the majority...your thoughts?


Hopefully you didn't over EQ, not to many filters otherwise looks good.

As long as it sounds better to you,.

Read the manual like i mentioned.
Edited by Phillips751 - 6/6/13 at 2:29pm
post #2029 of 2086
I will have to listen to the mains for a while after that to figure out...

In the meantime here is the CENTER CHANNEL FREQ:



center channel vol 35.doc 17k .doc file

Both SURROUND CHANNEL FREQ:



surround channels vol 35.doc 17k .doc file


I was listening to a wyclef jean: the carnival cd, while I was bored and just behind the mic listening. I changed the eq's from flat to manual 1(your few changes) and manual 2 (yours plus my others added). Flat brought out alot obviously much boomier. Yours (manual 1) helped lower the extremes and pulled it back a little but left in alot of energy still. Mine and yours together (manual 2)pulled back more of the energy than just yours but seemed too allow everything to show through, but I can see how it might have made it sound a little fake... but could be placebo effect knowing ahead of time too...
Edited by pnutbutter81 - 6/6/13 at 3:50pm
post #2030 of 2086
I think you can do this in Real Time like you have for the main speakers.

Your ears are final, although depending how long you have been listening like this for.

Read that manual a few times and take it in.
post #2031 of 2086
Hi, I have not been on this forum for a while so please be kind if this is a silly question. I have the Omnimic v1 which included a stereo CD for the test tones. Is there now a 5.1 version of the test tones and how can I get access to them?

Cheers,
Dave.
post #2032 of 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topend View Post

Is there now a 5.1 version of the test tones and how can I get access to them?

Cheers,
Dave.

Yes...it is available for purchase from Parts Express.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-793
post #2033 of 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by laugsbach View Post

Yes...it is available for purchase from Parts Express.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=390-793

Thanks,
Dave
post #2034 of 2086
What do you all think of the software update?
Edited by Phillips751 - 6/14/13 at 5:42pm
post #2035 of 2086
The 5.1 still has it's downsides. For example, If I want to do pairs, like surrounds with a sweep, I must unhook the main channels and any others not associated (rear surrounds, center...) because it will only allow single channel sweeps or all channels sweep. The 50hz and 1k tones also don't seem to have any specific titles listed for their use, but I assume it allows you to hear the LFE for phase tuning... But for the most part it still eliminated the hassle of having to switch cords as a tradeoff. Not really a necessity except for sub sweeps to me. Maybe someone can enlighten me. Maybe a test tone for setting levels would be nice, regardless of the one present on the receiver for those that don't have the option?
post #2036 of 2086
Done some experiments / reading with EQ.

Conclusion:
1. Using too many filters can be very detrimental to the sound.
2. The way EQ is applied is extremely important
2. Flat response isn't the best sound.
3. There is alot more to acoustics than flat response.
post #2037 of 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillips751 View Post

Done some experiments / reading with EQ.

Conclusion:
1. Using too many filters can be very detrimental to the sound.
2. The way EQ is applied is extremely important
2. Flat response isn't the best sound.
3. There is alot more to acoustics than flat response.


There is no doubt you are correct. As we have agreed before. Music is subjective and so is EQ'ing. I have learned a great deal with applying too many (almost held back and fake sounding) and applying the problem areas (without really looking at room acoustics too in depth) to get some big peaks decreased (some of which may never disappear without treatment). I will be running an auto eq soon and do graphs of the same previous tests to see improvements. In the end, not having a dedicated room can be problematic, but still quite enjoyable as I have learned so far:)
post #2038 of 2086
Can I export my mic file to REW, I have a MiniDSP and would like to use my OmniMic........Thanx
post #2039 of 2086
Look up Minidsp in the Omnimic Help. The OM already can generate files for direct loading to MiniDSP, can figure the EQ and everything.

I get the feeling that not many users look into the Help manual to see all the things the software can do. It's worth it to take a look.
post #2040 of 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post

Look up Minidsp in the Omnimic Help. The OM already can generate files for direct loading to MiniDSP, can figure the EQ and everything.

I get the feeling that not many users look into the Help manual to see all the things the software can do. It's worth it to take a look.

+1

It's a great resource, no question.
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