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Amplifier FAQ - Page 7

post #181 of 197
Thread Starter 
That article looks good. I did not have time to do more than skim over it today.

As for power, if it was not clear, amps can out more power than the wall can deliver to some extent. They have a massive bank of caps to hold the voltage which are part of the power supply. And then there's the fact that you can draw more than the rated current from a circuit for a short time.

As for parts quality effecting sound, that's a non trivial topic. I suggest looking at some books written by engineers on amp design. Like Douglas Self. They bust a lot of myths originating from audiohiles not versed in the technical details of amplifiers.
post #182 of 197
Quote:
As for parts quality effecting sound, that's a non trivial topic. I suggest looking at some books written by engineers on amp design. Like Douglas Self. They bust a lot of myths originating from audiohiles not versed in the technical details of amplifiers.

Busting myths is/are the job of engineers. That being said, compare, say a good tube set up to nearly ANY SS set up- same speaker, same sources, same room and the tubes will win- matter of fact Magnepan and MAC did blind testing just as I describe and prove this to be be true. So much for engineer's and their idea of what sounds good. That is akin to believing everything that is advertised on paper is factual- simply not true, yet we are told this is truth, but is it really true? Ask any experienced EE, and they will tell you - go for the tubes (usually).

I appreciate your write up, I really do, it's an interesting topic. However, what simply amazes me is how so many esoteric designers gain so much regard, and yet pro audio gear is some how of lesser quality? Hardly- not even close to the truth. As if an RCA sounds better then an XLR- no way- no matter the distance. Balanced vrs unbalanced- what is the goal of quality audio reproduction? It should be- Balance. Tonality, Timbre and Pace-recreate what was originally intended by the artist, this is what matters for quality audio- but now I feel am ranting. (lest I mention how a recording was mastered to begin with- another topic altogther)

For example, ATI builds amplifiers for many different vendors- including, but not limited to: Outlaw, Sonance, ATI (in house designs) and many others.

Bryston, originally pro audio gear, does this also, yet a 3B/4B ST (same as several Lexicon's amps) have higher review points and the Lexicon's used price bring way less money- yet same amplifier. AB International - pro audio gear, is Cinepro (very highly regarded and very expensive), Great amplifiers I might add. And the list goes on and on.

It's all about advertising hype and what is preferable on a given day- not really factual engineering designs that are equally comparable. Oddly, tubes- good ones, they always sound good, yes, better then their SS counter parts- no matter how they are compared (when compared using the same source's). But they can be a pain to live with, are expensive (now a days) and create a lot of heat- so- SS is a better option for many users. John Curl for example-designs for what? 5 different brands does he design for, heck maybe even more- do any of these sound better or worse then each other; I am sure they do, but again it's build quality (money allowing for higher quality parts ect.) vrs the hype- IMHO. AT a certain point WPC is simply WPC- this is where the pre-amp and source components are so very important.

By way of example, I had one of Halcron's newer digital amps and it was horrible $6700.00 amplifier and it was simply terrible, loud, ok, so what, so is my Harley. But did this amplifier sound better then what I have- not even close- subjective, granted, as is all of audio from a given point of view, but at what point does money stop buying better sound? This is my real point I am trying to get at.

It is so perplexing for most perspective buyers that they have nothing to really use as a point of reference. A paradox for the buyer, and the engineers wonder why high end audio is dying a slow death? Yet, for me, after trial and error, when one desires perfect audio, that this is when you finally realize- perfect audio is not possible, close ..yes, perfect, no way- no matter how much you spend- nothing beats that of live of "you are there", or listening to the actual studio recordings.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Edited by kodi41 - 2/26/13 at 8:35pm
post #183 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

Hello, nice post, good info, just now read all of it and I find that there are several flaws in what you have written, I do not mean to sound condescending but there are HUGE differences in one manufactures prescribed wpc and that of another, ratings do matter depending upon the company and how said amplifier was tested, ect. I got the sense that your article means all amplified power sounds the same at a given wattage/amperage/voltage- I very much disagree.

That's sorta speaking with a forked tongue.

You can't have same given wattage, current, and voltage yet have different prescribed watts per channel. If so, then someone is lying. In the premise of "all amps sound the same" it is assumed that the ratings are all on a level playing field. If that assumption cannot be made then I doubt anyone would argue about differences.

It's a pretty well known case that some high end manufacturers sand bag ratings to give the appearance of doubling down so inherently those amps will seem more powerful than one honestly rated...because they are more powerful.
post #184 of 197
Quote:
That's sorta speaking with a forked tongue.

You can't have same given wattage, current, and voltage yet have different prescribed watts per channel. If so, then someone is lying. In the premise of "all amps sound the same" it is assumed that the ratings are all on a level playing field. If that assumption cannot be made then I doubt anyone would argue about differences.

It's a pretty well known case that some high end manufacturers sand bag ratings to give the appearance of doubling down so inherently those amps will seem more powerful than one honestly rated...because they are more powerful.
Yes, exactly, and there-in lies my point, at a certain price/build point WPC ect. is null. It becomes an issue of source and speaker.
Edited by kodi41 - 2/26/13 at 8:01pm
post #185 of 197
for example, take two amplifiers that measure the same on a test bench- say 100wpc, 20-20k then listen to them on the same sources- totally different sound.
post #186 of 197
You will find the majority here disagree with that, on the assumption neither is used beyond its limits and neither is defective. There will be some debate on defective though, because it is arguable if the amp is changing the sound it is defective.

This isn't really an amplifier debate thread though so...
post #187 of 197
I bought a new amp but I should have thrown out my Power Conditioner smile.gif

I am not sure where to post this interesting tale, but it might be applicable here.

My Power Conditioner made my amp sound lifeless
I recently tried out my Friends Outlaw M2200 mono-blocks and they sounded damn good; Better than my Sunfire 7400.

So I picked a used Outlaw 7500 and plugged it into my Panamax M5300-PM 11 Outlet Clean Power Level 4 .
After a quick test, I felt it sounded like my old amp.

Just to see how much power I was using, I plugged it into a Killo-watt.
The amp sounded a bit life-less with OK bass, but lacking in upper end detail and dynamics.
So I plugged it directly into the wall.
Voilà: it was fantastic.

My Power Conditioner made my amp hum
All is going well, and standing a few feet away I am hearing hum.
I found the power conditioner and the amp's transformers were humming (enough to be heard from my chair).
I moved plugs and unplugged the power condition from my 20 Amp circuit.
Voilà: No more amplifier hum. I mean zero.

I plugged the power conditioner into a different circuit and it hums but it no longer molests my amp.

- Rich
post #188 of 197
Excellent thread and well maintained. I have learned a lot. Thanks! smile.gif
post #189 of 197
How to Comparing A/B amps?

So I was looking at A/B class amps recently and it can be a head scratching process.
You can find many amps with similar power output at widely varied pricing.
Some stress Damping Factor and Slew Rate.
When I read about these the analysis indicates that any well designed solid-state amp should exceed the requirements for excellent sound.

So I put those aside.

Then it came down to:

1) Transformer Size
2) Capacitance
3) Output Devices
4) Fully Balanced

However, you can find amps with have the transformer size, capacitance, and output devices with the same power specs with all channels driven.

How can this be? I wasn't sure, so I selected Outlaw since they had better specs and I have heard them before and liked them.

I think it would be worthwhile understanding these specs when evaluating amps.

- Rich
post #190 of 197
The maximum output from a 15 amp/120 volt circuit is 1800 watts and 2400 watts if you use the 20 amp/120  volt setup. What most people do not understand is that 
most big amplifiers are limited by the current or voltage draw from the wall power socket. So when manufactures tell you that a specific amplifier can put out 
3000 watts of power that assumes the wall plug can  supply it – a big assumption. biggrin.gif
 
So I have three CA-M600 (1800Watts) + CA-5200 (1000Watts)
 
I am glad I have two dedicated line 20A/120V 
post #191 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

The maximum output from a 15 amp/120 volt circuit is 1800 watts and 2400 watts if you use the 20 amp/120  
volt setup. 
What most people do not understand is that 

most big amplifiers are limited by the current or voltage draw from the wall power socket. So when manufactures tell you that a specific amplifier can put out 
3000 watts of power that assumes the wall plug can  supply it – a big assumption. 
biggrin.gif

 
So I have three CA-M600 (1800Watts) + CA-5200 (1000Watts)

 

I am glad I have two dedicated line 20A/120V 

This needs some clarification...
Yes, typical USA AC outlets are 15 or 20 amps..
However to trip the circuit breaker, significantly greater continuous amps are required..

To activate the circuit breaker, most AC outlets would need to incur sufficient short-circuit current up to 120 Amps (8x 15A current) to
trigger the circuit breaker... 😳
Note that as the current load increases signficantly the AC line volltage will typically decrease as well..

Bottom line..😊
Since a component power amplifier when playing music is not a continuous current pull but rather a dynamic, changing up & down, the likelhood of triggering the 15A or 20A circuit breaker is quite slim..
Unless the wiring is old, in bad shape...
Or the connected total current load is much higher..

Here is some further substantiation from UL for this subject..
http://ulstandardsinfonet.ul.com/stp/addlinfo/CB_Test_Data.pdf

Just my 💰.... 👍😉
post #192 of 197
Didn't you mean to say "significantly greater short-term/peak" current is required to trip the breaker?
post #193 of 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Didn't you mean to say "significantly greater short-term/peak" current is required to trip the breaker?

Nope..
The word continuous is the crucial factor which is the length of time, that the higher current (Amps) are being drawn...
The higher, the peak current plays a pertinent part. However as explained, the typical 15A or 20A household, circuit breaker can easily handle significantly, higher peaks such as jumbo power amplifier may draw when playing a high dynamic music source material..
But... When the current draw is longer and extended in time, this is more likely trip the breaker..


Just my 💰.... 👍😉
post #194 of 197
Quote:
Yes, typical USA AC outlets are 15 or 20 amps..
However to trip the circuit breaker, significantly greater continuous amps are required..

I completely understand what you're saying...I run near 10kW of pro audio amps out in my garage on one 20A circuit. Clearly this is not ideal and there is no way I could come remotely close to continuous rated output, but it's amazing what peaks you can pull from a 20A circuit.

That said, in the quoted statement, it still seems like it should say signficantly greater short term peak amps are required to trip the breaker, since the point is the high peak demand nature of music vs the continuous capacity of 15-20A circuit.

As in,
Quote:
Yes, typical USA AC outlets are 15 or 20 amps..
However to trip the circuit breaker, significantly greater peak amps are required..
post #195 of 197
Is that why Emotiva recommend 20A lines for each of their beast. XPR-1, Mono-block Reference Power Amplifier, Nothing less than the most
post #196 of 197
Running those Emos on an individual 20A circuit for each one is overkill unless you're going to run full power sine wave bench tests with it. It's probably necessary to meet its rated power on the test bench but that's a much more severe duty cycle than listening to movies or music.
Edited by whoaru99 - 4/1/13 at 3:38pm
post #197 of 197
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kodi41 View Post

Busting myths is/are the job of engineers. That being said, compare, say a good tube set up to nearly ANY SS set up- same speaker, same sources, same room and the tubes will win- matter of fact Magnepan and MAC did blind testing just as I describe and prove this to be be true. So much for engineer's and their idea of what sounds good. That is akin to believing everything that is advertised on paper is factual- simply not true, yet we are told this is truth, but is it really true? Ask any experienced EE, and they will tell you - go for the tubes (usually).

I appreciate your write up, I really do, it's an interesting topic. However, what simply amazes me is how so many esoteric designers gain so much regard, and yet pro audio gear is some how of lesser quality? Hardly- not even close to the truth. As if an RCA sounds better then an XLR- no way- no matter the distance. Balanced vrs unbalanced- what is the goal of quality audio reproduction? It should be- Balance. Tonality, Timbre and Pace-recreate what was originally intended by the artist, this is what matters for quality audio- but now I feel am ranting. (lest I mention how a recording was mastered to begin with- another topic altogther)

For example, ATI builds amplifiers for many different vendors- including, but not limited to: Outlaw, Sonance, ATI (in house designs) and many others.

Bryston, originally pro audio gear, does this also, yet a 3B/4B ST (same as several Lexicon's amps) have higher review points and the Lexicon's used price bring way less money- yet same amplifier. AB International - pro audio gear, is Cinepro (very highly regarded and very expensive), Great amplifiers I might add. And the list goes on and on.

It's all about advertising hype and what is preferable on a given day- not really factual engineering designs that are equally comparable. Oddly, tubes- good ones, they always sound good, yes, better then their SS counter parts- no matter how they are compared (when compared using the same source's). But they can be a pain to live with, are expensive (now a days) and create a lot of heat- so- SS is a better option for many users. John Curl for example-designs for what? 5 different brands does he design for, heck maybe even more- do any of these sound better or worse then each other; I am sure they do, but again it's build quality (money allowing for higher quality parts ect.) vrs the hype- IMHO. AT a certain point WPC is simply WPC- this is where the pre-amp and source components are so very important.

By way of example, I had one of Halcron's newer digital amps and it was horrible $6700.00 amplifier and it was simply terrible, loud, ok, so what, so is my Harley. But did this amplifier sound better then what I have- not even close- subjective, granted, as is all of audio from a given point of view, but at what point does money stop buying better sound? This is my real point I am trying to get at.

It is so perplexing for most perspective buyers that they have nothing to really use as a point of reference. A paradox for the buyer, and the engineers wonder why high end audio is dying a slow death? Yet, for me, after trial and error, when one desires perfect audio, that this is when you finally realize- perfect audio is not possible, close ..yes, perfect, no way- no matter how much you spend- nothing beats that of live of "you are there", or listening to the actual studio recordings.

Just my 2 cents worth.

The problem has always been to prove one amp sounds different (better, worse, or indifferent) to another. I can say whatever I want, which does not make it true. In fact, we all know that fiction is presented as fact constantly. People repeat stuff that's plain wrong. For example, people will say we only use 10% of our brain. They heard it somewhere. But they did not bother to fact check.

It's not that I think someone who says one amp is better than another is lying or an idiot. I just can't be sure they are not making it up in their own head, or there's some unknown variable unrelated to an amplifier switch. Because there's no way to prove it. That should not stop THEM from buying what they want. Who am I, or anyone else on this forum to tell them what they hear, or how to spend their money.

So the debate will continue until what they hear can be measured and therefore understood. Until then, we just have to follow our own best judgement.

The lovely thing is that if you buy the "wrong" amp, the world won't end. It just seems silly to spend a lot of time debating audio, when you consider what happened in America this week. It's fun (sometimes,) and if people can just be polite, and not grind an axe loudly, we can all enjoy civil discussion. But it's not critical, and there are more important things going on. Sorry, will get off my soapbox
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