Official JVC RS-50 Owner's Thread - Page 87

And as well (or at the very least if they defend these published specs for ANSI Lumens), by what set-up parameters were they able to attain the 1,300 mark (screen size, throw distance, user settings etc...)

Guys, they already TOLD us that. Don't you believe them? They said they used the same method as last year's measurements. I can go find the quote if you want me to. Why can't you just believe what they TELL you? Life would be so much simpler that way...

Before I bought my RS 40 I called JVC and asked them if it was a 1300 lumen pj or if they were bumping the color temp to D8500 to get it. I was told no they measured it from 6500 and the new bulb gave them the 1300 lumens.

We really dont have any other pj any better at this price so I still bought it.

Regarding the lumen issue. Here is what I thought I knew...

1. The RS50/60 lumen output drops significantly when a color profile is engaged.
2. The RS50/60 lumen output is lower than the RS40 lumen output.
3. The RS50/60 lumen output is lower than last years models.

With the recent posts correcting me it now appears that 2 & 3 are sometimes true and sometimes not: OTOH we have Mark_H, Zombie, Gotcha, Krichter, and others, and on the other hand we have Manni, Jonathan, and Kris's experience.

I think 1 is mostly due to the wide spectrum of the bulb....the light produced by the bulb that is not within Rec709 is simply not projected. Since this years bulb has a wider spectrum than last years model it stands to reason that more of the bulbs raw light output is being wasted because it's outside of the projected color space (when a profile is engaged). The end result is a larger lumen drop between no profile and any color profile. What makes the 40 & 50 different is a question Jonathan first posed and it would be nice to hear an answer.

Item 2 seems to be true for most folks. I'm still confused about Kris's experiences but actual Lumen measurements and projector settings would have helped.

Item 3 is false for some (Manni and Jonathan) and true for others (Mark_H, Zombie, etc). As Manni mentioned to me in a PM this might be attributable to the zoom lens. Light loss thru the lens is minimun at the shortest throw and Manni and Jonathan have short throws. Perhaps this years lens has more light loss than last years (over all or part of the range).

With only 5 votes from dissatisfied 50/60 owners it's apparent that most owners are satisfied with their units.

Geof, I sent you a PM on this. But just a correction. Item 3 is not false really for me. I have a brighter image at 300 hours than I did have with my RS25, but my bulb is holding up better. At "new" it is about the same as I got from my RS25. Same is still NOT what JVC suggested with the new models. When I got my RS25 I started at -9 on the iris. But I had to go up to -6 by 400 hours. I am nearly at 300 hours on my RS50 and still at -9. So the main luck I have here is a bulb that is the complete opposite of Jason's! (sorry to make you jealous Jason...but you have better convergence than me!!). Also at -9 you get better contrast with the RS50 than last years RS25, so right now I am still in the sweet spot of gaining over last years models for contrast. But some of the points raised, that as the bulb dims, and you open up the iris, you start to lose the advantage over an RS40 for contrast are true....

Thanks for the clarification Jonathan. I didn't want to get into a "it wasn't at first but is now" story but I probably should have. Luck of the draw on bulbs I guess....

It's still apparent there are lumen issues which should be addressed responsibly by JVC. I do believe their advertising was/is deceptive and misleading. But it also seems like there is more lumen output variability in the 50's than I was aware of.

Geoff - imo, there is a larger sampling than just the handful of members you mentioned. Look at the RS40 lumens threads, they are consistently posting ~800 in the near D65 usable modes, some as high as 900.

Art's RS60 with a new lamp is similar to many of the measurements we've seen from RS50/RS60 owners. He told me he got a fair number of complaints from his readers about lumens issues with the RS50/60/X7/X9. Moggie just swapped his RS50 with an RS40 and measuring a 38% difference with all other factors being the same (throw, same light meter, etc)

I knew immediately when I took the RS50 out of the box, something was noticeably different in light output vs. my RS40 with 150 hours. The replacement lamp was no brighter brand new than the original.

In regard to Shane and Kris's reviews, I'd want to know more information than what was discussed in their reviews. Take a brand new RS40/RS50 out of the box, put them side by side with short, mid and long throw and post the measurements. This is what AVS did last year with the RS15/RS25 and it was clear as day what you'd be buying (assuming the lamp was ok) so you could size your screen accordingly. It's interesting that they didn't do it this year.. people all over the world had review machines before they were released. I believe people would have been running scared if they found out the mid-range and high end were being outperformed by the entry model...

With a small screen (under 100 inches), I can see why it's not an issue. just about anything will work with an 88". I had a 92" 2.8HP and I could easily run any of my previous 4 projectors in low lamp, iris closed and still be as bright as the sun.

I am still convinced from my own experience and others that the RS40 is the brighter projector by a fair margin. It's especially painful when you see the new kid on the block Mitsubishi HC9000 cranking out 900-1100 lumens in 3D mode which is fantastic. How they did this with only 5 watts more than the JVC lamp is a mystery.

As for your poll, people in general don't like to admit they made a mistake with an expensive purchase. At this time with the gamma/CMS issues & lower lumens, I'd be hard pressed to find a specific reason I'd want to keep the RS50 vs. an RS40 & the mini3D. The only thing stopping me from selling is the gamblers luck of getting a decent unit which is too risky for me to give JVC more of my $$.

Actual measurements is what I was asking for earlier when I got the "they/we did that" responses...

As to the rest of your points, I generally agree. Luckily for me I can live with the lumen output in my setup -- but I also know it's limiting my CR because I cannot close the irises as much as I had planned.

I think we all agree that JVC needs to address the lumen issue responsibly. Perhaps they will.

Hmm.. we'll let's hear the details if they did a straight up side by side with new lamps @ short/mid/long range. No ft-L readings please.. just direct performance of each individual projector.

My 2.8HP is my saving grace @ only 360 D65 lumens. My 142" is a rather large screen and have the projector in the ideal location. When I had the RS40,I could run the iris shut down almost all the way and I would still squint from time to time. Myr RS50 is wide open since it needs every bit I can get out of it.

it's shame the lamp is turning out be such as gamble. I am curious if my replacement would behave as well as Jon's. I'm at 270 hours so I'll measure it to compare again 220 to see if it at least leveled off, or if I'm heading toward sub 300 lumen territory.

It's hard for me to get a sense of how many owners are affected by bad bulbs. You "lucked out" along with others but what percentage of us are affected?? In my case the bulb has over 300 hrs on it now but I've only opened the iris 3 steps: There has most definitely NOT been any sharp lumen drop off (KOW, KOW).

Sorry Geoff but I must have missed a post of yours . . . What voting??

Hey Kevin,
I was referring to this poll.

And now you have one more vote for UNHAPPY... and would settle for a 40 plus cash from JVC (so I can buy a Lumagen mini to go with it!)

Thanks for doing that Geoff!

Sorry for the late reply. I did not do any calibration, this is factory settings 0 Contrast, 0 Brightness. I'll try to repost with the values from the calibration disc. Need to find out which AVS one the ps3 will read.

Correct my throw distance is around 10.5 feet and it comes out to about 100 inches of screen.

My understanding is that the mathematical calculation from FL back to lumens is not always reliable, because a screen's advertised gain and it's actual gain are not always the same. Unless you really know what your gain is, just plugging in the advertised gain into an equation will frequently give you the wrong lumens. Not to mention that uniformity from the screen is another variable. IE, depending on how/where you measure the FL, you may be introducing other factors from the screen that will impact the calculation.

That's why it's much better to measure lumens directly from the lens, when comparing projectors. FL introduces an extra variable, which isn't always a known quantity. When comparing the entire system, IE lamp to eyeballs, then FL is the better number. However, this discussion has been primarily talking about the projector as an isolated component, not the end to end results.

If a customer has the right setup (gain, size, etc), then the current lumens output of the projector may not be an issue. However, because the advertised lumens are wrong, it can be very misleading. Customer's may think they have a good enough screen, or may be making decisions on what screen to get, based on bad data.

This is a VERY good point... very critical and one I hadn't thought of. This is a very good reason JVC needs to take responsibility for their specs and tell us the truth.

And that is part of my rub with the lumen issue. The RS50 was my first projector and I used specs from it (and previous JVC models) to get an idea of what lumen output to expect to help determine what screen to get. I likely would have chosen a higher gain screen (or an RS40) had the actual lumen output been published beforehand.

Hi,

You make an excellent point. In addition, even if the manufacturer's gain was as claimed, the actual gain delivered to the viewer's eyes varies based on many factors. Forum member FLboy has developed a screen gain calculator to calculate the actual delivered gain. Listed below are the factors he uses to calculate the delivered gain.

What is the type of screen? Specify A for angular reflective or R for retro reflective.
What is the manufacturer-published on-axis centerscreen gain of your screen?
What is the published maximum viewing angle (to one side in degrees off-axis)?
What is the centerscreen gain at the published maximum viewing angle?
What is the minimum gain of your screen at large off-axis angles, e.g., 60 degrees?
What is the horizontal width of the viewing area of your screen?
How high above the room floor is the center of your screen?
How high above the room floor is the center of your projector's lens?
What is the distance from the front of the lens to the screen? (Measure perpendicular to the screen.)
How far back from the screen is the viewing position? (Measure perpendicular to the screen.)
How far to the right or left of the screen center is the viewing position?
How high above the floor are the viewer's eyes when seated at the viewing position?
How far is your projector offset to the right or left of your screen center?

Trying to back into the value of projector lumens by first measuring foot-lamberts will actual involve a bunch of other variables not just one extra variable.

Larry

Isn't this why we are measuring from the Lens to the screen using Ron's 9 point screen average to determine the average Lumens?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin
Hi,
Trying to back into the value of projector lumens by first measuring foot-lamberts will actual involve a bunch of other variables not just one extra variable.

Larry



Yes. In front of those 9 points as close to screen as you can get, you are still aiming meter back at the projector to measure lux for each point. Add the lux totals & divide by 9 to get an average lux reading, then X the square meters of your screen surface to get the ansi lumens of the projector. Spoken with all the authority of someone who just learned this like 5 days ago.....so if wrong someone please "gently" correct me......

Hi,

Ron's 9 point average calculates ANSI lumens from 9 lux measurements made with a light meter pointed at the projector in each of those 9 locations. The average lux is multiplied by the screen area in square feet and by .0929 to convert to lumens. There are no variables such as gain that are subject to interpretation.

Larry

So, early last week I asked AVS what kind of support we would receive for getting some answers from JVC on their corrective action plans. So far I have heard nothing on this topic, so I have to ask for Mark to chime in here to assist us in getting some answers. This silence is getting very frustrating to say the least.

As to the others here that did not buy from AVS, what pressure have you put on your dealer to get answers??

We obviously are getting nowhere by ourselves and need to start turning up the heat; don't you think??

Thanks for you and zombie and others for having the doggedness to keep asking the questions and I agree.

Hello Gentlemen,
Would you mind taking a quick look at this calibration file and giving me your opinion? This is my 2nd pass at this projector so the pre cal numbers are from my first pass. I'm using a Hubble referenced against an I1 Pro. 118 hrs on the lamp which is set to normal, with the iris at -15. I'm using stage, 6500K and Custom 1 for Gamma. I'm using 100% stimulus and windows in Calman 4.21.
The picture looks great, the grey scale looks great. My question is that I initially have a serious dip in gamma at 90%, down to 1.7. To correct this I went into the service menu and pulled the gains on RGB way back at 90% stim. R -82, G -74, B -97. This brought the gamma very close. I then went into the regular menu and used the gamma controls to tweak it slightly using white only. For all RGB greyscale adjust ments I used the gains in the service menu and the offsets in the regular menu under color temp.
Does this seem like a proper proceedure to you? should I be concerned about pulling the gains back so far?
Also, Do you know what the G controls are for in the service menu?

Thank you for your advice,

Mike

 

ISF_Advanced-4_18_2011RS60.zip 428.0302734375k . file

If it's of any value to anyone here, I'm attaching Chad's calibration report of my RS-60.

Any questions, ask Chad.

Thanks,

Nick

 

Nick RS60.pdf 253.439453125k . file

In many cases, a very low gamma at 90% stimulus is caused by having contrast set too high. Did you try bumping down contrast to see if that helped the gamma curve? With your initial results, you may have been clipping whites pretty heavily.

Dan

The first thing I do is set the brightness and then the contrast. Then one of the last things I do is recheck the brightness then contrast. In this case they both ended up being set to 0. One click up or down on either one was too much. They seem to be pretty coarse adjustments.

I reported a bad dip to Manni way back when and I think it was due to the HDMI setting. Do you have it set to enhanced or something?

I'm going straight into the projector with a Quantum 780 and everything is set to HDMI Standard.

Guys. I have been on vacation since Tuesday, arriving home late Monday afternoon. When I have something to report I will. I have been extremely busy trying to catch up as most people who come back from vacation must do regardless of their profession.

As many our aware, we are facing shortages of equipment because of the tragic natural disaster in Japan and I spend time trying to find catched distributor stashes around the country to more speedily fill our customer orders often at the cost of us having to pay higher acquisition costs.

Several have asked me if if they sell their RS50s could we sell them RS40s at Mini3ds at our original preorder pricing. The answer is no, because our ability to buy RS40s and Mini3Ds at the prebuy for us price has expired. Al;though its not much, we can offer reimbursement for the cost of any ad in our classifieds seeking to sell an RS50 or RS60.

Unfortunately, as an employee of AVS I can not speak my mind on all issues on which I might otherwise offer an opinion. Fortunately, AVS management generally has no problem with me speaking my mind. However, when I speak in a forum with a comment that one of our manufacturers might interpret negatively all hell breaks out for me.

That said, one can research my comments while a civilian on certain issues discussed in these threads.

I think many are happy with their JVC purchase this year. Some aren't. It is easy to become unhappy with ones purchase because some others are unhasppy. Me too ism. People that are happy don't spend a lot of time reading about others' bitches. Sort of, I love my wife I am sorry your marriage is in trouble but mine is going to give me a __ tonight, sorry I gotta go. This does not unfortunately make the sufferor feel any better.

Personally, I feel there is a bad batch of bulbs problem out there and I would note that from what I have heard and read JVC is supplying new bulbs for those where bulbs have cracked or suffered rapid drop offs in brightness.

One must remember that employees of any entity are not always free to speak. If they value their jobs, they can only speak if authorized and then must stick to the company line. Certainly this comment is applicable to JVC emplyees.

Fortunately, every projector comes with a warranty. If one feels that a projector is not meeting its specifications while within the warranty period there are procedures for seeking a warranty fix. Sometimes a little persistence is required and doing so can be a pain.

While customers will sometimes have horror stories with obtaining a warranty repair, by far most manufacturers performance in this area is good.

JVC has many fine people working for it although I am sure from time to time they may not think the same of me. Sometimes I can be quite the thorn in their sides knowing too much for my and their good.

As a civilian, I bitched loud and often until they rectified their first attempt at a CMS and improved their underperforming lenses several generations ago.

Right now I think and I am speaking as a forum member there are problems with the new bulb. This is not JVC's fault but is a fault of the bulb manufacturer. One must rember that the bulbs come with only a 90 day from date of sale warranty. If you are experiencing what appears to be a bulb issue, do not hesitate to call JVC service and start the service process within the 90 day period.

As a consumer, I can't come up with a reason why some are experience less lumens output with RS50s and 60s than 40s. But I do note that from posts in the various JVC threads that some are experiencing bulb problems in some 40s. That is about all I have to say or can say at this point. Pleasse do not put me into a position of not being able to respond to other issues at this point. I have read all the posts and the PMs and emails that have been sent me. Repeating posts serves no purpose. I have read them already and I will be the first to repond when there is news to report.