Official JVC RS-50 Owner's Thread - Page 117

I agree. Man it would be awesome to get that lens shift implemented. I need more throw range as well so I dont have to physically move the projector when zooming in/out for different aspects, but the shift is definitely the more important of the two. Looking forward to Cedia and what it might bring!

Maybe I'll double post this, since it's about the RS40, but Jason's comments prompted me to post here first.

I'm going on 800 hours on the lamp in my second RS40 (lamp blew at about 270 hours on the first one). I'm seeing a little more ghosting now than when the lamp was new. At that point, I saw virtually none. I think it's reasonable to assume that the extra heat generated by a new lamp is responsible for a part of that difference. Even with the slightly increased ghosting now, my RS40 is not a bad performer in that area, although I definitely want to see improvements next year.

If the Mitubishi uses Sony panels at the same refresh rate as this year, and they perform similarly, I'd expect to see worse ghosting for 3D Blu-ray. I haven't followed that thread at all, though, so I don't know what the reports have been. I remember some people in the Sony thread saying that Grand Canyon Adventure was almost unwatchable because of ghosting. Even some JVC owners are reporting some ghosting with that title. My first RS40 was excellent, with little ghosting. The second one has been even better. I just watched GCA again, at close to 800 hours, and I did see a few more instances of minor ghosting this time. It was far from serious, though - 99% ghost free, and I was actively looking for it.

I still believe the JVC engineers made the best compromises for 3D performance with this year's models. At 800 hours, I've lost little of my enthusiasm for the RS40. I love it to pieces as a 2D projector, with its amazing native contrast. It still delights me every time I see a dark scene with bright highlights. The image is so rich and deep. In 3D, it's enthralling. I have a 110" HP, and the HP/RS40 duo is great.

Of course, since I started shooting my own 3D, I have a different impression of RS40 ghosting when it operates at 120hz. At that refresh rate, the RS40 does not hold up nearly as well. 3D Blu-ray operates at 96hz on the JVC - a wise decision, since it ghosts so little at that rate. Increase that speed to 120hz, though, and the ghosting increases dramatically. I see it in many situations with footage from my JVC TD1 3D camcorder. And that's the ironic part, because my Samsung 3D plasma (at 120hz) ghosts a lot less with the camcorder footage. That's not to say it's all bad for the RS40 showing TD1 footage. For much of the footage, it looks absolutely incredible, with contrast and black level that the Samsung can't touch. I just wish it didn't ghost so much with some material.

With that said, I'm still very, very happy with the RS40 as a 3D display. I think JVC made the right choices. I know the lamp issue is troubling, and the RS50/60 issues are serious, but overall I'm a very happy JVC owner (even after my first RS40 had awful convergence and the bulb popped at 270 hours - forcing replacement). I'll definitely be looking at JVC again next year - though I doubt seriously I'll be on the pre-order list. But that's not because I'm afraid of the product - just that I think I'll still be very happy with the RS40 when the new models roll out. I'll wait to find out how good the second generation improvements are before I think about upgrading again. That's how much I like the first generation.

I can't recall a warm up period with the Sony. However the Sony 3D was crap at any setting and actually dimmer then the JVC in 3D. If the Mits is anything like the Sony I wouldn't bother with it for 3D. But, why believe me. There are plenty of happy Sony owners who think that the 3D is fine. According to almost everyone who did compare both JVC and Sony, the JVC was far better in 3D.

200 for a lamp is pretty cheap. Is that from AVS? I was also thinking of just having a 3D lamp and just poping it in once a month for 3D sessions for a few days and then replace the old lamp for 2D. It's a bit of a hassle but removing the lamp is pretty easy on the JVC and you don't have to unmount it to do it.

As for brightness. I've never been a brightness snob. I find brightness to be very relative to what your eyes are used too, or what your eyes adjust too and how dark your room is plays a huge part in perceived brightness.

As an example. In my total batcave room I watched Dark City today with normal lamp in THX mode with the IRIS at -15. CRAZY RIGHT!! Guess what. It was more then bright enough and the blacks were deeper then any other display I've seen at this point. As my eyes adjusted to the lack of brightness the scene at the end......Spoiler alert........






When the Sun finally comes up I was blinded by how bright it was and actuallly had to look away from my 110" Carada screen. I wouldn't watch every movie like this but Sci fi or horror looks great with the IRIS clamped down.

The problem I do have is when brightness affects your enjoyment and for 3D at 500 hours the JVC is basically defective. At 700 hours even 2D with IRIS fully open in High lamp and in Anime preset the picture was darker then I have now with -15 IRIS in Normal Lamp. These "new and improved" lamps that JVC uses are total ****. I'll most likely be calling JVC every 500 hours to get a new one Don't be nice with them. I emailed the service guy after he said there was nothing wrong with my lamp and I sent him a link to this thread and told him to get a light meter and test the damn bulb. The next day I had a new bulb in the mail.

Jason if you have time PM me. I want to talk Bluray sources with you and maybe some trading of invites.

Jason

I finally got around to watching Despicable Me, and in terms of ghosting I found it maybe the worst I've seen on the RS40. Can't remember what your thoughts were on that title. Of course, this is at a point when the RS40 has started to ghost a bit more for me. Iris, BTW, doesn't seem to make any difference with regard to ghosting on my RS40. Makes sense, if it's the lack of heat that contributes to crosstalk. The heat on the chip should be the same, I would think, no matter the iris setting.

New bulb RS50 almost no ghosting in despicable Me. Even the menu doesn't have ghosting with the orange letters. On the older bulb this movie had tons of ghosting.

What would happen if one were to block one of the vents and cause the projector to overheat a bit? Less ghosting? Try blocking the vent, and if you have a total meltdown just send it to JVC and say you don't know what happened.

Well at least thats my original theory proven that as a bulb dims, it runs cooler, and so the panels don't get as hot...and therefore more ghosting.

In my view, this could be easily fixed in firmware if the internals are aware of their temperature (which I believe they are). Then they just need to optimise the fan speeds more, rather than just running in low or high, so that the unit warms up more quickly, and then maintains a suitable running temperature.

Ghosting hasn't really changed on mine yet, but I did have, and still have, ghosting on the orange menu in Despicable me...I had that right from day 1.

The iris WILL affect the warm-up of the panels with an RS50/60 due to the internal aperture. Therefore for maximum warm-up speed you want the aperture fully open.

I watched DM around the 300 hour mark and had considerable ghosting off and on throughout. Enough to be distracting from my perspective.

120hz material is not even worth messing with at this point IMO as the ghosting makes the material unwatchable IMO most of the time.

Hoping for some more DLP choices to come out of Cedia.

Not a bad idea........its ridiculous enough to have to waste 20-30 minutes doing the "warm up" but now the 3d gets worse the longer you use it as far as the bulb goes with ghosting. At least I know I can enjoy DM again if I ever get a new bulb......at least until the bulb accumulates hours

The other big problem is 120hz material which is bad with a new or used bulb. A New bulb will of course improve this, but its bad enough with 0 hours.

Is it the heat from the wattage of the lamp or the heat created by the intensity of the light from the lamp that affects ghosting?

A magnifying glass brings light to focus and with a sufficient light source - like the sun - one can start a fire but use a 100W bulb instead of the sun much less heat is generated at the focused point.

It seems to me that as the bulb ages and less light is focused on the panels they would run cooler because there is less light. I'm under the impression that the light path is sealed so any heat generated by the lamp isn't directly passed onto the panels (IOW, the fan isn't blowing lamp heat over the panels). I'm also not sure if the heat produced by the lamp changes as the bulb ages: Do they maintain the same efficiency (lumens/watt) as they age or do they simply produce less light but create the same amount of heat (as new) when they age?

In any event lets hope the newer bulbs age better and ghosting becomes less of an issue.

[quote=Toe;20520728
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The other big problem is 120hz material which is bad with a new or used bulb. A New bulb will of course improve this, but its bad enough with 0 hours.[/QUOTE]

Joe - when you shoot your own 3D with your JVC camcorder it that output in frame packed (i.e.,, full 1080p resolution) or side-by-side (half resolution) format?

Most of us RS40/50/60 owners have only experienced the projector operating in 120Hz 3D mode from side-by-side or top-bottom half resolution sources and these certainly have more ghosting than from Blu-ray 3D. There seems to be some evidence that these projectors are creating more ghosting with these half resolution formats and perhaps that is a greater source for the increased ghosting rather than the higher demands for refreshing at 120Hz.

Wow Ron, thanks. This is really good stuff; interesting indeed!



I'm going to the post office today to pick up my 3D package and will let you know this weekend if it is the English version (I was assured it was and my guy has always come through... just ask ALL the happy Avatar owners on this thread!). I'm looking forward to watching Megamind & Narnia in 3D and will report back! I'm also told the Battle for Terra is supposed to be really good!

BTW... your post about JVC's policy cracked me up large!

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From what I remember and going back through some of the JVC posts Todd, I believe this to be a true statement.

Basically... expect more 3D ghosting as the bulb dims (although I can't conclude why this would be unless it's there from the start and the additional brightness masks it from you eyes??)

Actually, it's both, although for some reason the ghosting does seem worse with side by side material. The first couple of days, I shot only SbS with the camcorder. When I switched to frame packing I initially thought it looked as good as 3D Blu-ray. On further examination (different type of subject), I saw that even the FP material was ghosting more than 96hz 3D Blu-ray. I've watched enough content now to feel pretty comfortable with that assessment. That's why I still prefer to watch TD1 footage on my Samsung 3D plasma.

Two things:

Off Topic: Do you have a link to the USB cable that works with the JVC TD1 and an external Blu-ray drive? I'm having trouble finding it and I seem to recall you posting something about it.

Second, I think I may have inadvertently stolen your theory about greater heat from the lamp being responsible for less ghosting with the JVC projectors. If so, I apologize for lifting your idea. Either you stated it while I wasn't reading this thread closely and I missed it, or I read it and then forgot you wrote it first. Actually, the latter is a bit more likely. In the past year, my psychiatrist has managed to convince me that a couple of my assertions are indeed in error. Apparently, I did not invent the intermittent windshield wiper, and I am not married to Kristin Kreuk. I'm still having trouble accepting the Kristin Kreuk thing, but I will abide by the restraining order.

I doubt +/- 10 lumens would be noticeable to the eye. Based on what I've read, I think you'd need to get up around a 40 lumens (10%) difference before most people would notice it.

That's one factor although brighter projectors or setting a higher White Level than 240 (which I used in the example) reduces lumen output more than the 10 lumens in my example. But I was more curious about the WTW part....Is the lumen tradeoff worth it for whatever WTW content may exist? How frequent is WTW content?

Keep in mind that projector video level light output is not linear but log and governed by the gamma curve, ie brighter levers will be 10s brighter instead on linearly brighter.

Haha Joe, you crack me up! Rather than suggest you have any need for a shrink, I would prefer to revel in the fact that great minds think alike!

As for the USB cable, as I am in the UK, I can only post a link to what I found on a UK site

http://www.lindy.co.uk/2m-usb-otg-ca...e-b/31629.html

That is what you are looking for....but it seems to be a job to find it. It is the mini-A end that is the troublesome one to find. Sony throughtfully includes an adapter in the box with their 3D camcorder but then stupidly from what I can tell, can only write to DVDs and not BDs directly!!

I agree that it's been shown that as bulbs age ghosting gets worse. I'm not sure "why" has been proven though.

There are other tests that have shown it is heat related.

For example, when first switching on the projector, the ghosting is worse.

Or the fact that if you keep the bulb in "low" output, it never seems to warm up sufficiently to achieve the same reduction in ghosting as "high" output. But before you say could it be brightness related. Well, if you run it in "high" for an hour, and then switch it to "low" it retains the heat for a while and the ghosting is still at the same reduced level.

The contrast ratio in low and high bulb modes are the same, just as the fact that as a bulb dims as it gets older, the contrast ratio remains the same. It just slides down proportionally.

Some have reported that ghosting is more obvious on an HP screen (countering any argument that it is brightness related) but I have never seen one to validate that report.

I agree heat plays a role, but that doesn't mean there aren't other factors too. Also, I'm still not sure we really know if bulbs actually run colder as they age. There seem to be some assumptions that this is true, but I haven't seen any data that backs it up.

It's certainly an interesting theory, but I think it's a bit premature to stop looking at other potential causes as well.

I must have watched a different version.. I thought this was a total snoozer.. zzzzzzzzzz...... The CGI birds overlaying the 787 is where I draw the line.



I am biased because I love this movie, but there is ghosting all over the place for me as well. I do believe the HP screen makes it stand out more than our friends with the low gain screens.

I think it's the bright blue backgrounds with orange mixed in that seems the most susceptible. I would like to see this movie on the Sharp 1080P 3D DLP because it's completely ghost free on the Acer 3D DLP.

Sammy's Adventure is the same, lots of blue/green oceans, sharp color contrasts and the ghosting is there no doubt, but it's bar-none the best 3D i've yet to see (and i've seen 'em all!) just amazing.

Any more personal videos? I'd like to check them out when you get a chance.

I'm still working on being able to edit the MVC files. I'm getting close, but there are a few wrinkles to work out, and software to buy. I have over a thousand shots from my TD1 camcorder. They're mostly from the Missouri Botanical Garden, but I'm planning a lot of other St. Louis landmarks, too. The goal is to produce several 3D Blu-ray discs, and it looks like I'll have to get Sony Vegas Pro to be able to do that. Then I'll have to find a place to host the iso files. By the end of the summer, I'd like to have several discs of some of my favorite St. Louis locations. They should look great on your RS50, but the Acer might look even better with some shots, because of the lack of ghosting.

If you'd like, I can link you to a few unedited files from the TD1, if you just want to check out the video it produces. I have several shots in a Dropbox account. Some of them don't ghost even on the RS40. I'm extremely impressed with the TD1's video quality.

Yes, I was not factoring in a "normal gamma" with my simple math (which assumed a gamma of 1). You're right, with a more normal gamma the change will be more than 10 lumens.

There seems to be a V1.5 of the firmware on the JVC France website, couldn't see it on the UK or US site.

If you feel like trying: http://www.jvc.fr/knowledge.php?id=100068

I haven't tried it yet, so you might want to wait for a confirmation from GaryB or Chris that its a version for US or UK models as well.

Apparently there was a V1.4 which I haven't seen either on the UK or US sites.

It seems to me that it is a version that cumulates all the changes up to 1.3, so I have no idea why it's called 1.5. Maybe to make up up for the fact that it's late?

Thanks, Jon, but I've just located the USB cable I need. It's an adapter kit they sell at Micro Center - right here in St. Louis. It consists of a USB cable with several different removable tips, including both Mini-A and Mini-B, as well as regular A and B. It's going to be very handy for the TD1. I plan to back up to both Blu-ray and hard drive. I've accumulated so many shots with the camcorder that they're almost more important to me now than the hardware itself. Some of them (family ones, anyway) are irreplaceable. The camcorder isn't.

Nice find.

A google translation of the pdf states

• In the case of a ceiling mount (camera back), the magnitude of the adjustment has Lense Shift been increased.
  
• The optimization parameters for the canvas screen Theater House (Model Theater Matte) were added to the DLA-X7/X9
  
• The settings for color management (Color Management) have been made ​​softer and more progressive (for X7/X9)
  
• The performance of the switching 2D to 3D to 2D and 3D has been improved (for X7/X9)

Yes, this is why I suspect it is not really a new version but a french repackage of 1.3.
I'll wait to hear from Gary or Chris before I install it. All these changes are included in 1.3 and earlier.

No..it definitely is new with new features. I found a more complete listing of changes. It is dated 30th of May. note the reference to ceiling mount is not about the inverted controls but increased lens shift! The fact that the US/UK hasn't released it may suggest it doesn't have the "real" CMS/gamma fixes and so they are possibly embarassed to release it. Or perhaps they are in total hiding now over the embarassment with the failings of these models that they just don't want to do or say anything anymore.

- Some third-party equipment connected to the projector, such as BluRay players or amps A / V could generate blocking operation via the HDMI connection. HDMI management has been strengthened for this purpose.
- In the case of a ceiling mount (camera back), the magnitude of the adjustment has Lense Shift been increased.
- The optimization parameters for the canvas screen Theater House (Model Theater Matte) were added to the DLA-X7/X9
- The settings for color management (Color Management) have been made ​​softer and more progressive (for X7/X9)
- The performance of the switching 2D to 3D to 2D and 3D has been improved (for X7/X9)

So I what does all this mean (I guess I flunk google translation interpretation). Does the "settings for color management (Color Management) have been made ​​softer and more progressive" mean the controls have a finer adjustment but a wider adjustment range??

Haha..your guess is as good as mine, but your interpretation is likely. The one we are all hoping for is to see something saying that gamma controls have been revised to maintain greyscale....no such comment in this release!