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Velodyne Digital Drive Plus subwoofer information now posted - Page 2

post #31 of 169
I wonder if there's going to be a fire sale on the DD-18.............seems to be a great time to buy 2 DD-18's at 60 % off!

Spec wise, there is not that much difference between the DD-18 and the DD-18+...........what warrants a 1k price increase in this economy?

Wonder what the SQ differences are between the two.................I'm betting not much. The DD-18 is already a clean sounding sub.............
post #32 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublewing11 View Post

I wonder if there's going to be a fire sale on the DD-18.............seems to be a great time to buy 2 DD-18's at 60 % off!

Spec wise, there is not that much difference between the DD-18 and the DD-18+...........what warrants a 1k price increase in this economy?

Wonder what the SQ differences are between the two.................I'm betting not much. The DD-18 is already a clean sounding sub.............

No fire sale on the DD18, I sell them. They are almost out of them and they just came off back order. Specs mean very little these days my friend, the 1k price is warranted legit. The footprint is small compaired to many others #1. #2 the driver is way diff, way better, the cabinet is far beter and stronger, the eq system is more advanced, the servo system they use is lightyears more advanced than anyone could even imagine.
post #33 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by kivyee View Post

Given that the highest frequency a subwoofer might be called on to generate is 80-100 Hz, do you really think it makes a difference if the servo system is "correcting" that quickly?

Why wouldent it? most subs "with the so called amazing output" from 60 and down are so sloppy and distorted. It is very hard to get that kind of output cleanly. Velodyne does it by using thier servo system, they give up a few db's but so what. Like I had stated before, in a properly eq'ed and ballanced system, a sub should not overpower the rest of the speakers unless your a bass head and like unballanced sounding systems.
post #34 of 169
On this forum, many of us tend to be skeptical of very high-priced subs, especially when their predecessors proved to be such poor performers in objective tests when compared with some of their lower-priced competitors. None of that means anything if the new unit comes out and happens to be light-years ahead of it's predecessor. Time will tell.
post #35 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

On this forum, many of us tend to be skeptical of very high-priced subs, especially when their predecessors proved to be such poor performers in objective tests when compared with some of their lower-priced competitors. None of that means anything if the new unit comes out and happens to be light-years ahead of it's predecessor. Time will tell.

Is this a reference to a Velodyne doing poorly in an "objective" test? If so, which are you referring to?
post #36 of 169
Over the span of a few years, the AV Talk forum conducted outdoor ground-plane tests of many subs included several DD models.
http://www.avtalk.co.uk//forumdisplay.php?f=54

These tests can also readily be compared with the famous Illka tests on the Home Theater Shack forum.

In these tests, the DD's did well in certain respects such as frequency response and distortion levels, but the problem is that their output in the deep bass range is downright pathetic compared with many lower priced competitors. It tends to make them inadequate for doing justice to those movie soundtracks that have substantial content below 25hz. This certainly does not make them bad sounding subs. It just makes them a less than ideal choice for HT.

In other less standardized tests and comparisons detailed on this forum over the years, the DD18 also tended to not do well in comparison with many competitors when evaluated using movie content. On the other hand, I've never seen anyone rate them poorly with music.
post #37 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

On this forum, many of us tend to be skeptical of very high-priced subs, especially when their predecessors proved to be such poor performers in objective tests when compared with some of their lower-priced competitors. None of that means anything if the new unit comes out and happens to be light-years ahead of it's predecessor. Time will tell.

And how about an extensive (6 months) test that includes one of the most potent subs around, the Genelec HTS6. Keith Yates awarded the Velodyne DD-18 the award for "best real world solution". The test also included the ServoDrive Contrabass, a real monster in the bottom octave.

Keith Yates said:

"It (DD-18) hangs in there with the best of the bunch in every category but distortion, where it is the best of the bunch, yet the big Velodyne is a lot smaller and smarter than its no-holds-barred competitors. Make no mistake: Without help from a mike, a tone generator, and a high quality outboard parametric equalizer, no sub in the survey can match the DD18 for bass quality in a typical home theater setting."

"If you don't happen to have the aformentioned hardware gathering dust, along with the time to read a book or two on the physical acoustics and psychoacoustics of bass in small rooms, the DD18 strips down the quest to an add-water-and-stir affair. Just hook up the supplied mike and AV cables and run the simple room-adjustment routines from the sub's remote control. The only extra hardware you'll need will be your existing TV screen, to display the effects of your adjustments."

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/content...and-award-goes

I would also remind you that Mark Seaton's first choice for an outboard EQ has been the complex QSC DSP-30, along with a custom install of the DSP-30and Submersive from Mr. Seaton himself.

So when you start making comparisons of >$3,000 subs, you might want to give that a little thought.

Then again, you can just get the SMS-1 for >$500 and savor your savings with an ID sub.

The DD-18 Plus is no bang for the buck winner, but not everyone has that as their top priority.

I would also remind you that Craig Chase had a DD-18 in his house for a couple of years. He and his kids really liked it, in their real-world situation....
post #38 of 169
I do believe that the DD18 might have been one if the best subs available when it first premiered perhaps 9 or 10 years ago or so, but since then much has changed as the good ol' DD18 stayed the same. This is why the new one would need to be a big improvement over the old one in order to truly compete with other high end subs.
post #39 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by 45_ACP_AUTO View Post

Why wouldent it? most subs "with the so called amazing output" from 60 and down are so sloppy and distorted. It is very hard to get that kind of output cleanly. Velodyne does it by using thier servo system, they give up a few db's but so what. Like I had stated before, in a properly eq'ed and ballanced system, a sub should not overpower the rest of the speakers unless your a bass head and like unballanced sounding systems.

Okay, so let's take 60Hz. Let's look at harmonic distortions. The 20th harmonic is 1200Hz. What do you the dB is at that point? -100dB or so? Typically the higher you go SPL is going to drop even more. So again, this is 1200hz. What are you correcting at 15,800 Hz? My point is that the sample speed far exceeds any actual corrections it needs to make. I'm not arguing that the feed-back on servo subs DO reduce distortion, but there's no doubt in my mind that stressing 15,800 times a second of sampling is nothing more than a marketing gimmic. I'm sure it'll work just as well at 5000 times a second, or even 1200 times a second.
post #40 of 169
I guess what really amazes me the most is how nearly everyone on these types of sites wants to quote "ground plane" this, "waterfall" that, and "output below 25hz". So few movies have any content below 20hz its ridiculous and an even larger amount of MUSIC (remember that stuff anyone??) is sub-bass free (possibly below 30hz). To proclaim any subwoofer as substandard because an ID company can walk all over it in subsonic bass spl is foolish at best. Its like saying that in a test of sports cars, the cheaper one that does the quarter mile the fastest is the best car, while the other car handles better, looks nicer, brakes better, has more features, and can round the track faster overall. But people remain focused on 1 aspect and generally seem to neglect that there is so much more to consider. Stereophile had the DD series Velodynes as Class A rated for years and years. I know I know, they were obviously paid off by the corporate fat cats at Velodyne to get that rating , but that facts are facts. I can't imagine buying any sub with the predication that it will plumb to the deepest depths of "Kung-Fu Panda" but fails to mention how it worked on the music you listen too.
post #41 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

I guess what really amazes me the most is how nearly everyone on these types of sites wants to quote "ground plane" this, "waterfall" that, and "output below 25hz". So few movies have any content below 20hz its ridiculous and an even larger amount of MUSIC (remember that stuff anyone??) is sub-bass free (possibly below 30hz). To proclaim any subwoofer as substandard because an ID company can walk all over it in subsonic bass spl is foolish at best. Its like saying that in a test of sports cars, the cheaper one that does the quarter mile the fastest is the best car, while the other car handles better, looks nicer, brakes better, has more features, and can round the track faster overall. But people remain focused on 1 aspect and generally seem to neglect that there is so much more to consider. Stereophile had the DD series Velodynes as Class A rated for years and years. I know I know, they were obviously paid off by the corporate fat cats at Velodyne to get that rating , but that facts are facts. I can't imagine buying any sub with the predication that it will plumb to the deepest depths of "Kung-Fu Panda" but fails to mention how it worked on the music you listen too.

agreed. great post.
post #42 of 169
The question I like to ask is: Why can't a $6K sub do it all well including Kung Fu Panda? To use that car analogy, I know of many high enders that handle extremely well and can also accelerate rapidly in a straight line.
post #43 of 169
The Velodyne DD+ series is a high performance, fully featured, high end product. I don't think anybody would say a Ferrari is a poor product just because a Corvette ZR1 is faster and cheaper.
post #44 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

The question I like to ask is: Why can't a $6K sub do it all well including Kung Fu Panda? To use that car analogy, I know of many high enders that handle extremely well and can also accelerate rapidly in a straight line.

It does do Kung-Fu well, really well.

I'll raise you one: Why can't ID companies provide world-class room correction software included, powerful and unique custom amps (not Parts Express modded stuff), impeccable fit and finish and an appearance that looks thought out (not like something that was made in your garage), seamless integation with ANY speaker, ultimate musicality through out the ENTIRE low frequency range, massive support chain of dealers, world-wide customer service as well as local store fronts to audition products..............all the while they are belting out brown-note type spl's down low? Call any ID company and ask why they dont offer all those. Some may cover a few, but none cover them all. Velodyne does.
post #45 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

It does do Kung-Fu well, really well.

I'll raise you one: Why can't ID companies provide world-class room correction software included, powerful and unique custom amps (not Parts Express modded stuff), impeccable fit and finish and an appearance that looks thought out (not like something that was made in your garage), seamless integation with ANY speaker, ultimate musicality through out the ENTIRE low frequency range, massive support chain of dealers, world-wide customer service as well as local store fronts to audition products..............all the while they are belting out brown-note type spl's down low? Call any ID company and ask why they dont offer all those. Some may cover a few, but none cover them all. Velodyne does.

Let's address your questions one by one.

1."Why can't ID companies provide world-class room correction software included"

What is so important about including room-correction when almost all modern receivers and av processors have room-correction built in? Also, there are several fine stand-alone units for bass eq including my favorite, the Velodyne SMS-1. These can be used with ANY sub or subs.

2. "powerful and unique custom amps (not Parts Express modded stuff)"
Amps which are currently available from Seaton and JTR are DSP controlled and are up to 4000 watts continuous. I do not believe they can be purchased at Parts Express, but even if they could, I wouldn't hold that against them.

3. "impeccable fit and finish and an appearance that looks thought out (not like something that was made in your garage)"
Take a good look at any of the units form SVS, HSU, Seaton, and others that are available with premium veneers or gloss finishes and they will easily hold quality-wise to any high-end Velodyne.

4. "seamless integation with ANY speaker"
What makes Velodyne special in this area and how is it better at this than a good ID speakers?

5. "ultimate musicality through out the ENTIRE low frequency range"
I can't speak for every ID speaker out there, but I'd bet on my SVS PB13 out-performing a DD18 in virtually every meaningful performance category and it can do it at higher output levels. If musicality is related to a flat, accurate, extended frequency response and uncompressed bass even at louder levels, the PB13 has it all over the Velo.

6. "massive support chain of dealers, world-wide customer service as well as local store fronts to audition products"
Can you say, Dealer Markup?

7. "all the while they are belting out brown-note type spl's down low?"
Thanks for bringing me back to my point: Objective tests prove that the DD18 does not perform well with high spl down low. That has proven to be it's majore weakness. If you wish to dispute those tests and you have some tests you would like to cite to show the contrary, please do post them up.
post #46 of 169
With all Velo has going for it, why do they still put out so many stinkers? You make some valid points, but if the ID companies had all that's in your list, they wouldn't be ID companies.
post #47 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

Its like saying that in a test of sports cars, the cheaper one that does the quarter mile the fastest is the best car, while the other car handles better, looks nicer, brakes better, has more features, and can round the track faster overall. But people remain focused on 1 aspect and generally seem to neglect that there is so much more to consider.

Sidewayz, since you are new here I will tell you about some unwritten rules which are known by all but spoken by none. You don't criticize internet direct subwoofers-especially those made in small one-man shops, make car analogies to explain your point, or praise Velodyne subwoofers. You have managed to do all of this in a single post.

By the way you make some good points. +1

post #48 of 169
Let's face it, Subs north of $4k a piece simply aren't going to fly on forums such as these. We are not their target. For the most part, they're for custom installers who need the support/distribution networks Velodyne provides. The ease of "integration" by an included/embedded powerful EQ versus the use of an external unit which adds more complication.labour, need for rack space (and as Mojo points out, slowly becoming obsolete especially with the likes of XT32 with SubEQ HT onboard AVRs.)

The original DD18 was a wonderful product and sounded great. Though after doing two shootouts with that sub against the PB13, F113, Axiom EP600, PDigm S15v2, it was in most opinions best by both the PB13 and F113 in terms of both musicality and HT. So in definite need of an upgrade.

Having said that, it was the best of the bunch at "not" allowing the user to push beyond it's means. E.g., it was the only sub that kept itself in control for the "Pulse" movie. While the F113 and PB13 started to make some ugly sounds as we pushed them beyond their means, the DD18 simply didn't permit it and a limiter or the servo kicked in to suppress the SPLs and keep the sound in check, just muted somewhat. So, while its "limits" came before the PB13 for sure, it did have the sophistication to limit what went to it. Another thing as a custom installer I'd want as it would ensure my customer doesn't blow up their sub (note, I'm not a custom installer, just inferring).

I do agree that the amp seems light in comparison to other amps available these days, though it does have, supposedly, a 3000 watt peak, which is more than ample. Even Paradigm tells people while installing a 240V line to get more of the available power of their Sub25 amp will provide a couple extra db's, they don't necessarily recco it. So if Velo managed to improve the efficiency by say 2 or 3db of their woofer (who knows), that would go much further than trying to stick a more powerful amp in the sub.

A DD15 vs Sub25 comparison would be great. How far off are they in terms of MSRP? $1k? Not a ton given the price tags.

But in any event, the truth is all we'll ever hear are user reports and "professional" reviews glowing praise about all subs they test and one can never use those to truly compare anything these days. There is nothing wrong with them, the subs likely do sound great by all accounts. But without proper measurements, ears can easily be fooled, measurements can not.

The Stereophile review of the PB13 which yielded a "B" rating, still excellent by their mag standards, is a perfect example of how flawed reviews can be. The reviewer commented the PB13 couldn't match the "couldn't match the musicality or the deep bass impact of the more expensive subwoofers", being the DD18, F113 and some REL. While musicality is subjective (and although I consider it almost impossible short of doing a blind test in the same room at the same time to compare that between the F113, DD18, and PB13, having done this exact test myself with others, given the advantage the F113 starts to show north of 40/50hz vs the PB13 I can see how, at reference levels, it may deliver more punch for music and be deemed more musical, plus sealed subs have lower delay than ported which may also add to this), the comment that it "couldn't match the deep bass impact" is laughable given how much better, and cleaner in terms of THD, the PB13 handles below 25hz content than the F113 and the former DD18. This is the exact reason why many of us can't use these mags as a frame of reference. So whether it's because the reviewers are "afraid to anger the people who pay them their advertising dollars" as you put it, or simply biased by the price of the subwoofers in question (like it or not, this happens), without measurements these comments are humorous and show just how incorrect they can be.
post #49 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post

It does do Kung-Fu well, really well.

I'll raise you one: Why can't ID companies provide world-class room correction software included, powerful and unique custom amps (not Parts Express modded stuff), impeccable fit and finish and an appearance that looks thought out (not like something that was made in your garage), seamless integation with ANY speaker, ultimate musicality through out the ENTIRE low frequency range, massive support chain of dealers, world-wide customer service as well as local store fronts to audition products..............all the while they are belting out brown-note type spl's down low? Call any ID company and ask why they dont offer all those. Some may cover a few, but none cover them all. Velodyne does.

Great Post, very well said.
post #50 of 169
I've watched Velodynes work since the 80s. Back then, no one was accomplishing what they were doing. Their ULD stuff ruled the LF world. They had outboard amps, and furniture grade down firing behemoth subs. Integrating them properly back then, as it still is with subs today, was key.

Even though I'm no longer their target demographic, I think Velodyne makes superb products. Many correct points have been made in previous posts as to their place in the market. I like Warp's Ferrari/Vette analagy,...it seems the most accurate. I've owned their stuff, and their CS support on the phone really surprised me. I had a situation, and they made a generous offer to make it right. I thanked them, but I'm not in a position to base my system around their products any longer.

They'll be around for a long time I suspect, and I'm of the opinion that we owe a debt of gratitude to them for their pioneering efforts back in the 80s, at bringing subs mainstream. Their flagship products have always been high quality/low distortion pieces. Certainly not the last word in extension, but what they do, they do extremely well.
post #51 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post

Sidewayz, since you are new here I will tell you about some unwritten rules which are known by all but spoken by none. You don't criticize internet direct subwoofers-especially those made in small one-man shops, make car analogies to explain your point, or praise Velodyne subwoofers. You have managed to do all of this in a single post.

Nice!

I hate car analogies, as they are always inherently flawed. But who doesn't love a good car or ice cream analogy every once in a while
post #52 of 169
Good post PBC,

Having owned two DD18's, 2 F113's and having done several comparos in my HT (including with dual PB13's), the DD-18 has always held a special place in my memory (and heart) sound-wise. Even though it was incapable of much <20hz output, I felt it performed better in the upper frequencies than any of the subs mentioned here. In a direct F113 to DD-18 comparo, I preferred the DD-18 but went with the F113's due to price and size (ironic considering what i have now ).

I agree that the Forum hobbyist crowd is not the target market for these subs. As you said, the DD-series are often seen in the higher end installer built systems and the owners get a fine product for their turn-key systems. Just not the absolute best HT performer nor the best value.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Let's face it, Subs north of $4k a piece simply aren't going to fly on forums such as these. We are not their target. For the most part, they're for custom installers who need the support/distribution networks Velodyne provides. The ease of "integration" by an included/embedded powerful EQ versus the use of an external unit which adds more complication.labour, need for rack space (and as Mojo points out, slowly becoming obsolete especially with the likes of XT32 with SubEQ HT onboard AVRs.)

The original DD18 was a wonderful product and sounded great. Though after doing two shootouts with that sub against the PB13, F113, Axiom EP600, PDigm S15v2, it was in most opinions best by both the PB13 and F113 in terms of both musicality and HT. So in definite need of an upgrade.

Having said that, it was the best of the bunch at "not" allowing the user to push beyond it's means. E.g., it was the only sub that kept itself in control for the "Pulse" movie. While the F113 and PB13 started to make some ugly sounds as we pushed them beyond their means, the DD18 simply didn't permit it and a limiter or the servo kicked in to suppress the SPLs and keep the sound in check, just muted somewhat. So, while its "limits" came before the PB13 for sure, it did have the sophistication to limit what went to it. Another thing as a custom installer I'd want as it would ensure my customer doesn't blow up their sub (note, I'm not a custom installer, just inferring).

I do agree that the amp seems light in comparison to other amps available these days, though it does have, supposedly, a 3000 watt peak, which is more than ample. Even Paradigm tells people while installing a 240V line to get more of the available power of their Sub25 amp will provide a couple extra db's, they don't necessarily recco it. So if Velo managed to improve the efficiency by say 2 or 3db of their woofer (who knows), that would go much further than trying to stick a more powerful amp in the sub.

A DD15 vs Sub25 comparison would be great. How far off are they in terms of MSRP? $1k? Not a ton given the price tags.

But in any event, the truth is all we'll ever hear are user reports and "professional" reviews glowing praise about all subs they test and one can never use those to truly compare anything these days. There is nothing wrong with them, the subs likely do sound great by all accounts. But without proper measurements, ears can easily be fooled, measurements can not.

The Stereophile review of the PB13 which yielded a "B" rating, still excellent by their mag standards, is a perfect example of how flawed reviews can be. The reviewer commented the PB13 couldn't match the "couldn't match the musicality or the deep bass impact of the more expensive subwoofers", being the DD18, F113 and some REL. While musicality is subjective (and although I consider it almost impossible short of doing a blind test in the same room at the same time to compare that between the F113, DD18, and PB13, having done this exact test myself with others, given the advantage the F113 starts to show north of 40/50hz vs the PB13 I can see how, at reference levels, it may deliver more punch for music and be deemed more musical, plus sealed subs have lower delay than ported which may also add to this), the comment that it "couldn't match the deep bass impact" is laughable given how much better, and cleaner in terms of THD, the PB13 handles below 25hz content than the F113 and the former DD18. This is the exact reason why many of us can't use these mags as a frame of reference. So whether it's because the reviewers are "afraid to anger the people who pay them their advertising dollars" as you put it, or simply biased by the price of the subwoofers in question (like it or not, this happens), without measurements these comments are humorous and show just how incorrect they can be.
post #53 of 169
Mojo, your in-depth and well thought out response proved my point. Thanks for a nice dialog though.
post #54 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbfleming View Post
Sidewayz, since you are new here I will tell you about some unwritten rules which are known by all but spoken by none. You don't criticize internet direct subwoofers-especially those made in small one-man shops, make car analogies to explain your point, or praise Velodyne subwoofers. You have managed to do all of this in a single post.

By the way you make some good points. +1

post #55 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidewayz View Post
Mojo, your in-depth and well thought out response proved my point. Thanks for a nice dialog though.
That's good and your welcome. That means it makes us both happy since it also prove my point.
post #56 of 169
I think people are still missing the point.

Velodyne will never make a product that competes directly against Hsu, Seaton, eD and the others. Velodyne is designed to be a high performance product that is feature rich for system integrators, and have a big dealer network all over the world. If you moved to India, you could probably could get repair support there. They also used a sealed design that, by default, won't compete against the larger ported boxes in extension. By using servo, they are clearly trying to target the cleanest sound they possibly can, but maybe sacrificing extension to some degree. I'm sure this tradeoff was deliberate and they wouldn't have it any other way. I wouldn't even be surprised if they deliberately filtered out the very low bass (and judging from the fact that the SMS-1 did cut off very low bass, it seems they weren't concerned about plumbing the deep depths of single hertz bass)

Their real competition is JL and Paradigm, and I don't think anybody can actually say that any of those competitors walk all over the other, each has some advantages and disadvantages. I think if you were to listen to all three blindly in a real world comparson, you'd come out equally impressed by all of them.
post #57 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

I think people are still missing the point.

Velodyne will never make a product that competes directly against Hsu, Seaton, eD and the others. Velodyne is designed to be a high performance product that is feature rich for system integrators, and have a big dealer network all over the world. If you moved to India, you could probably could get repair support there. They also used a sealed design that, by default, won't compete against the larger ported boxes in extension. By using servo, they are clearly trying to target the cleanest sound they possibly can, but maybe sacrificing extension to some degree. I'm sure this tradeoff was deliberate and they wouldn't have it any other way. I wouldn't even be surprised if they deliberately filtered out the very low bass (and judging from the fact that the SMS-1 did cut off very low bass, it seems they weren't concerned about plumbing the deep depths of single hertz bass)

Their real competition is JL and Paradigm, and I don't think anybody can actually say that any of those competitors walk all over the other, each has some advantages and disadvantages. I think if you were to listen to all three blindly in a real world comparson, you'd come out equally impressed by all of them.

Do you feel that the newer high-end Paradigms do no better job with deep bass than the DD18? That would be dissappointing. To hear those guys on the Paradigm threads, those subs in the Signature series can do it all well. Loud, deep, and accurate.
post #58 of 169
I'm pushing to have a subwoofer meet in Edmonton, Alberta. BRAC said he would bring his Seaton Submersive HP, and I will bring my Paradigm Signature SUB 2. I need some help moving my subwoofer from Calgary up to Edmonton. We also need someone to host, and someone who can take measurements.

Any volunteers?

EDIT: oh yeah, can anyone bring a DD-18 plus?
post #59 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Do you feel that the newer high-end Paradigms do no better job with deep bass than the DD18? That would be dissappointing. To hear those guys on the Paradigm threads, those subs in the Signature series can do it all well. Loud, deep, and accurate.

I didn't say one way or another because I don't know what Velodyne's true design goals really are for this new product. I just said the DD18+ should be directly comparable to other high end premium sealed retail brand subs.

Has anybody even heard/compared and/or measured the DD18+ yet?
post #60 of 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post
Do you feel that the newer high-end Paradigms do no better job with deep bass than the DD18? That would be dissappointing. To hear those guys on the Paradigm threads, those subs in the Signature series can do it all well. Loud, deep, and accurate.
True, but then, to listen to the guys in any thread on this forum (ULS, VTF-15, LFM, Empire, CS18.X, Lava, etc) every sub can do it loud, deep, accurate. I know, that's somewhat exaggerating, but you know what I mean. Look at the ULS vs VTF thread. For the longest time ULS owners said how their sub plummeted to the depths of the earth and sounded great with incredible punch for music, now the VTF comes out, and somehow a ported sub is besting a sealed sub in the lows (naturally) AND the mid/upper bass regions (unusual), simply because HSU had to make decisions around the ULS and wanted something that would hit deep because that's what the AVS crowd was more concerned with at the time and boosted it so low to try and get to that magical 100db-ish at 20hz level (for a "small" sealed sub) that the amp can't keep up up high. With the ULS and VTF-15, HSU is showing it is listening to the AVS crowd and giving them the flavour of the day at some incredible prices. The Empire seems to utilize a 4th order roll off in the upper 20's vs a 2nd order roll off, likely because they know the majority of people will have enough room gain to offset this and 90% of bass is above 30hz, and people with 4000 cubic foot rooms (and barely any room gain) say the Empire goes lower than any sub they've ever had/heard. Again, very, very smartly designed sub. If they had delivered to Canada I would have likely gone that route vs DIY for my smalllish 1700 cubed family room HT.

As for the Paradigm, that's not to say the Sub25 can't hit deep. Given the price range, I'd guess the driver is close to the LMS in terms of motor strength/ability and with that kind of amp power it can be boosted quite a bit down low and still have plenty of power for the mid bass region.

I'm guessing the Velo DD18 is going to have a box size advantage over the Sub25 (I'm too lazy to look ) and obviously a driver size advantage so won't need the power the Sub25 does to hit as deep. The better comparison will be to the DD15 IMO as the price range and box sizes should be closer. But you know all this, probably better than I do.

One of the PR's that came out when the new Velo's were announced claimed "The DD+ Series utilizes newly engineered drivers with twice the extension of their predecessors. Using Velodyne's patented digital high-gain servo technology and a Class D, patented Energy Recovery System (ERS) amplifier, delivering over 3000 watts of dynamic power, the DD+ produces the industry's lowest distortion bass, under ½%, with a 4.5 to 6 dB upgrade in output from the previous Digital Drive Series."

So 4.5 to 6db's seems to imply a considerable increase in efficiency, at what frequencies, who knows, and not sure what "twice" the extension means, but it at least means it will go a bit lower than the predecessor which we have measurements for.

I'm sure Secrets will do a review of the DD-18 or 15 and JEJ will post his usual measurement suite on it, FWIW one can try to compare it to the Sub25. In any event, I'm sure it will be an impressive product, and find a happy place in many a rich man's home, a few of whom will come on here and extol the virtues of how the subwoofer plummets to the Earth's core, shakes their neighbourhood, make their friends green with envy, and can eat alive any other subwoofer in this universe.
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