AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Audio theory, Setup and Chat › Room Treatment and Sibilance
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Room Treatment and Sibilance

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
Hello guys


Recently i bought Dynaudio Exite x12 speakers as an upgrade to my Dali Concept 2 speakers. They are connected to my Denon AVR-2105 receiver, I use my pc and the DAC of the Denon as a source. The system is in my bedroom. While i was browsing my favorite records i noticed sibilance on many of them. After contact with the shop I decided to let them burn in. While the loudspeakers where burning in, my receiver broke, and that was an excellent opportunity to experiment with various sources and amps. What I noticed was that the setups sounded brighter than in the shop. When the receiver was fixed again, I noticed that the sibilance was less, but not gone. For awhile I tried to get used to the amount of sibilance that my system produced, that was a bad idea. So now I want to treat the room. I've already tried to move the speakers and to deploy pillows and other soft objects in my room. My latest improvements include: connect the receiver direct to the outlet of the wall and toe-in of the speakers. I will post pictures of my room.
post #2 of 37
Thread Starter 
Can't Post my image, i can only post a link. Why?
post #3 of 37
If your receiver supports room correction, use that in addition to the treatments.
post #4 of 37
Thread Starter 
It's an old receiver, so room correction is not supported.

post #5 of 37
Try not aiming the speakers directly at you from such a short distance. I am playing with a pair of Dynaudio Focus 110As and have them tilted up and not toed-in. No problem with sibilance.
post #6 of 37
Thread Starter 
What is the best way to do that? And i like to know if power optimalisations can help.
post #7 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by the limp man View Post

What is the best way to do that?

The Dynaudio table stands or Auralex MoPads would do fine or you can rig up something ad hoc.

Quote:


And i like to know if power optimalisations can help.

I do not know what you mean by that.
post #8 of 37
The large glass window on the right side is acting as a big reflecting surface from which sound waves coming from the speakers will bounce and cause wave inference and general muddiness. If you don't already have some, put some soft curtains (not blinds) around them and keep them closed during critical listening. They will act as absorbers and tame those reflections, at least on the right side. That's one inexpensive treatment.

Kal's suggestion of the Auralex Mopads is excellent (I just got some Speaker Dudes from Auralex and they are terrific, but overpriced). You need to raise those speakers off the desk for two reasons. One, you want to get the tweeters to be as close to ear-level height as possible (ear-level while you are sitting in listening position, not standing). Two, you want to de-couple the speakers from the surface of the desk. This will keep your desk from vibrating with the speakers and acting as a sort of giant speaker itself. It will also improve the clarity of the sound from the speakers, as the sound waves coming from them won't be getting so much interference from the reflections off the hard surface of your desk.

You do need bass traps of some sort in all of your room's corners, to the extent practical. The lower frequency waves have the longest wave lengths and thus bounce around the most in your room. Eventually, they make it to every corner and back to your ears, causing boominess and a lack of tightness in the bass. Bass traps minimize the reflecting of those bass waves all over your room by absorbing them and keeping them in the corners, where they won't bounce back and through wave interference cause nulls and peaks at your listening point (this also requires optimum subwoofer placement with respect to your listening point).
post #9 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

The large glass window on the right side is acting as a big reflecting surface from which sound waves coming from the speakers will bounce and cause wave inference and general muddiness. If you don't already have some, put some soft curtains (not blinds) around them and keep them closed when you're during critical listening. They will act as absorbers and tame those reflections, at least on the right side. That's one inexpensive treatment.

I do not hear the difference, yet. I wil do some critical listening tomarrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

Kal's suggestion of the Auralex Mopads is excellent (I just got some Speaker Dudes from Auralex and they are terrific, but overpriced). You need to raise those speakers off the desk for two reasons. One, you want to get the tweeters to be as close to ear-level height as possible (ear-level while you are sitting in listening position, not standing). Two, you want to de-couple the speakers from the surface of the desk. This will keep your desk from vibrating with the speakers and acting as a sort of giant speaker itself. It will also improve the clarity of the sound from the speakers, as the sound waves coming from them won't be getting so much interference from the reflections off the hard surface of your desk.

They are already raised (you can't see it in the picture), there was a big improvement when i did that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will2007 View Post

You do need bass traps of some sort in all of your room's corners, to the extent practical. The lower frequency waves have the longest wave lengths and thus bounce around the most in your room. Eventually, they make it to every corner and back to your ears, causing boominess and a lack of tightness in the bass. Bass traps minimize the reflecting of those bass waves all over your room by absorbing them and keeping them in the corners, where they won't bounce back and through wave interference cause nulls and peaks at your listening point (this also requires optimum subwoofer placement with respect to your listening point).

The bass is fine, that is not part of my problem. My problem is Ssssssssssssssibilance. Vocals on a lot of the recordings are emphasising S-sounds. I do not understand why. When i Demo ed these speakers there was no trace of it and the excites are known (according to reviews) to be very smooth speakers with an midrange that is clear, but certainly not sibilant.
post #10 of 37
Thread Starter 



I've tilted up the speakers abit and pulled the curtains over the glass window. The sibilance is less than before but it is stil there. Does anyone know what to do?
post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by the limp man View Post

.... After contact with the shop I decided to let them burn in. ....

That will not help one bit. If that is what the shop recommended, they have no clue.
post #12 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
That will not help one bit. If that is what the shop recommended, they have no clue.
What do suggest?

I called the Dealer of dynaudio and he says that in general dynaudio's does not produce sibilance. He suggested to try another room or source.
post #13 of 37
are you sitting off-set between your speakers ???
post #14 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post

are you sitting off-set between your speakers ???

My english is not that good. What do you mean by "off-set" ?
post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by the limp man View Post

What do suggest?

I called the Dealer of dynaudio and he says that in general dynaudio's does not produce sibilance. He suggested to try another room or source.

I agree. I am sitting in my office/study with a pair of the Focus 110As on the top of the storage unit about 33" high. They are being fed from a Squeezebox Touch and the sound is balanced with good bass and smooth treble. No sibilance. Also, no room treatments/EQ/tone controls.
post #16 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by the limp man View Post

My english is not that good. What do you mean by "off-set" ?

from your diagram, it looks like you are not sitting in the center of your Left/Right speakers --- you appear to be sitting further on the right side. any reason for this?
post #17 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by localhost127 View Post
from your diagram, it looks like you are not sitting in the center of your Left/Right speakers --- you appear to be sitting further on the right side. any reason for this?
When i really want to listen to my music i will sit in the center, but my desk is at the right side, for casual listening i will listen at my desk.

Another interesting point is that the Focus series is less bright than the Excite series according to forum posts. If this is true, it could be possible to spot the sibilance easier on the excites.

Another thing is i tested my speakers on a Rotel stereo amp and the sibilance was gone. But that amp costs €900 and i lose the 5.1 possibility. Maybe a new sibilance free receiver (the Denon is also the source) is a good starting point.

Because i don't want to spend a lot of money on my bedroom setup, i am willing to look at occasions.

Mind you all: The above are only suggestions, if you guys think that new equipment does not solve anything, i will try to find other ways to improve my sound
post #18 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by the limp man View Post

What do suggest?

I called the Dealer of dynaudio and he says that in general dynaudio's does not produce sibilance. He suggested to try another room or source.

Another source will not matter either. Does this issue happens with all your music discs or just some? Recordings could have sibilance in them.
post #19 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post

Another source will not matter either. Does this issue happens with all your music discs or just some? Recordings could have sibilance in them.


No not all disks. Here are the disks where it is most present:

- Mumford and Sons
- Norah Jones - come awat with me
-Counting Crows - August and everything
- John Mayer - Battle Studios

Sibilance free Recordings

-Aerosmith - Greatest Hits
- Adele - 19
-Christina Agulera
-Joe Bonamassa
-JOss Stone
post #20 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by the limp man View Post

No not all disks. Here are the disks where it is most present:

- Mumford and Sons
- Norah Jones - come awat with me
-Counting Crows - August and everything
- John Mayer - Battle Studios

Sibilance free Recordings

-Aerosmith - Greatest Hits
- Adele - 19
-Christina Agulera
-Joe Bonamassa
-JOss Stone

If that is the case, then I think you have source issues,Cds, not component issues. Need better recordings.
post #21 of 37
Thread Starter 
To confirm if it is really the recording, could someone verify that the recordings are indeed sibilant? Especially Roll Away Your Stone from Mumford and Sons/
post #22 of 37
Quote:


my receiver broke, and that was an excellent opportunity to experiment with various sources and amps

I think some of your answer was in your original post. What did you observe when you were trying other sources and amps? Were the speakers as sibilant with a different source or amp feeding them? If so, I think that is the key, that your receiver is too hot in the upper midrange or is somehow eq'ing the signal noticeably.

It has become very common for people to state that room treatments are a requirement for a system to sound good. While I agree to a point, room treatments are never going to be a negative unless you go way overboard on them, they should not be required for music to sound clear and clean. We have gone for 60 or so years of audiophiles setting up stereos, surround sound, quadrophonics, etc and it is only in the last couple years that the idea of room treatments has become common when discussing home audio. They have always been a bit of a mystery before that, and were experimental at best for most people. Having recently added a bunch of room treatments myself, I can say that properly setup and calibrated gear got me 90% of the way, and the treatments have been a nice addition to finish off the experience for me. The impacts they made were in smooth pans, less reflected echo, and lower noise floor in the room.
post #23 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren_G View Post

I think some of your answer was in your original post. What did you observe when you were trying other sources and amps? Were the speakers as sibilant with a different source or amp feeding them? If so, I think that is the key, that your receiver is too hot in the upper midrange or is somehow eq'ing the signal noticeably.

It has become very common for people to state that room treatments are a requirement for a system to sound good. While I agree to a point, room treatments are never going to be a negative unless you go way overboard on them, they should not be required for music to sound clear and clean. We have gone for 60 or so years of audiophiles setting up stereos, surround sound, quadrophonics, etc and it is only in the last couple years that the idea of room treatments has become common when discussing home audio. They have always been a bit of a mystery before that, and were experimental at best for most people. Having recently added a bunch of room treatments myself, I can say that properly setup and calibrated gear got me 90% of the way, and the treatments have been a nice addition to finish off the experience for me. The impacts they made were in smooth pans, less reflected echo, and lower noise floor in the room.


There are some things i like to know. but first:

I've heard the Dynaudio/marantz setup (with the rdac) at the shop. That was not sibilant at all. At home with the marantz and the rdac there was sibilance, so in that regard the room has a negative effect.

Questions:

1. I want to know if i am overreacting to the sibilance problem. Yes the setup that i have now seems more sibilant then my previous setup, but the sibilance gets much more of my attention, with every SSS i hear i think that it is sibilance, but maybe i am wrong.. I want to know if there is a way to check it.
2. Is there a file avalible that is according to you guys is compleetky sibilance free? And if so, can i test if it is my setup or my hearing or the room?
post #24 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren_G View Post

... If so, I think that is the key, that your receiver is too hot in the upper midrange or is somehow eq'ing the signal noticeably.
....

Which receiver is too hot in the mid band? Perhaps you can help us by showing a frequency plot, not guessing.
Modern receivers, well designed are flat, period.
post #25 of 37
Thread Starter 
My receiver is not modern, its from 2004.
post #26 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by the limp man View Post

My receiver is not modern, its from 2004.

Well, that is modern except for perhaps some codec capability.
post #27 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ View Post
Which receiver is too hot in the mid band? Perhaps you can help us by showing a frequency plot, not guessing.
Modern receivers, well designed are flat, period.
Not saying at all that it should be, but if there is a problem with a receiver and a different receiver does not display the same characteristics, then the problem may be in what the receiver is amplifying. He did mention that he had recently had it serviced, so it may not be operating as it is supposed to.
post #28 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren_G View Post
Not saying at all that it should be, but if there is a problem with a receiver and a different receiver does not display the same characteristics, then the problem may be in what the receiver is amplifying. He did mention that he had recently had it serviced, so it may not be operating as it is supposed to.
However i did a home Demo with the RDAC yesterday and the sibilance was more or less gone. This was with the Denon receiver. This confirms that it is a issue with the components, and not in my room (the Panasonic DMP-BD80 as a source is also sibilant). But the RDAC costs E400 here in Holland, i find it too expensive.

Now that i know the cause of the problem, what is the best thing to do next?
post #29 of 37
Why not look into getting a PS3. It's one of the best sources for bluerays and it is an ok cd player. Trust me with a cheap blueray player you will hate the amount of time it takes to load a disc. Look into get a used PS3 from gamestop or amazon. I know it's probably more than you want to spend but it is worth it.
post #30 of 37
Thread Starter 
Because the PS3 is not the solution to my problem. As i said before i play my music thru my pc, so it goes like this:

Asus D2X(PC) > optical > Denon AVR2105 > Dynaudio Excite X12
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Audio theory, Setup and Chat
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Audio theory, Setup and Chat › Room Treatment and Sibilance