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Official JVC RS40/X3 Owners Thread - Page 51

post #1501 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Jason,

Your screen shots look spectacular. I usually don't get too worked up by screen shots, but it's hard not to get excited by what I'm seeing here - color, sharpness, and, Jeez, Louise, the black level.

The blacks on this projector are out of this world. I am quickly going through all the dark movies like T2, Matrix, Star Wars, Blade, etc. I can't wait to watch these over again.
post #1502 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Even JVC's honest numbers at D65, though, are for high lamp mode, iris wide open (at 0), and at the shortest throw. Any set up other than this will yield less than the rated lumens.

I will wait to see what other reviewers come up with and I do understand that this needs to be with all those things you listed, but I have yet to see measurements at at any temperature, wide open iris, high lamp, and shortest throw record anything near 1300 lumens.
post #1503 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

a few months back I calle JVC and talked to a tech there. This was when people on this forum mentioned that 1300 lumens is at 8500k. The tech insisted the 1300 lumens is at d65. So from what I gather either he lied or was misinformed right?

Hi Guys,

Just a quick comment to clear up a few things that have been posted.

JVC does not specify the color temperature at which the lumen measurement is made. Anyone who tells you otherwise, does not have their facts right. Having said that, the factory was very clear that the lumen measurement this year is done using the same methods and the same settings as that in previous years. I also think that most people that have seen the new generation and compared it to the older generations will agree that there is a very visible increase in brightness.

While we're talking about color temperature, keep in mind that there can be a big difference between 6500K and D65. As someone pointed out to me recently, 6500K is simply a line on a graph. D65 is a very specific point on that line.

Also, keep in mind that the lamp is rated for 3,000 hours (using standard lamp mode. If you use high lamp exclusively, plan on about 2,000). That is based on the 1/2 life of the lamp. I spoke with one of our senior engineers last week just to confirm that nothing has changed, and he said it is still correct. This means, that at 3,000 hours, the lamp will be down to 50% of it's original brightness.

By the way, I'll add in all the usual disclaimers. Every lamp situation is different. The break-in period is very crucial. Decreases in brightness are usually not linear. After about 100 hours, things stabilize pretty nicely. Power failures during operation are a bad thing and affect lamp life in a negative way (sometimes very negative). Individual usage patterns absolutely affect how long your lamp will last. The lamp is considered a consumable item, so you may or may not get 3,000 hours out of your lamp. This year, more so than in the past, people will use a blend of standard lamp mode for 2D and high lamp mode for 3D, which will also impact the number of hours you actually get. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Yes, to get full brightness you need high lamp, open aperture and short throw. Of course, as pretty much everyone understands, those are all exactly what you don't want for maximum contrast. The point is you can install the projector to match the requirements of your room and your viewing preferences. A lot of people pick a setup that is somewhere in the mid-range of both.

Having said that, my personal experience leads me to believe that there is no reason to worry about being down to only 400 lumens after just 500 hours of viewing.

Lastly, I'm very happy to see that the vast majority of posts from people who have taken delivery of these projectors seem to be very, very happy with their purchase. That's the thing that matters the most.

Chris
post #1504 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Thanks. I'm trying to figure out though in what context you are providing this feedback. For instance, did you have a reason to think otherwise? You mentioned all three glasses are pretty much the same. The Xpands compared to what other glasses? Is this related to the NXG glasses at all?

Ah, you missed an earlier post of mine, it seems. I tested three glasses with a Samsung 3D plasma: X103, Samsung and "NXG". In quotes because the glasses are identical in design, function and use to the ones sold by NXG, based on the manual I downloaded off their site. The Ultra-Clear glasses appear to originate from the same OEM manufacturer as well.

Anyhoo, Samsung's own glasses have a problem in that they lose sync whenever a movie cuts from a very dark to a very bright scene. First 10 minutes of Bolt 3D is a good test for that. "NXG" glasses lost sync twice and recovered much faster than Samsung's glasses. X103 was rock solid and didn't lose sync once.

If the glasses sold by NXG are identical to the ones I have here, I wouldn't recommend buying them for use with a JVC FPJ as the pair I tested didn't work with a pre-prod X7.
post #1505 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeutsch View Post

I also think that most people that have seen the new generation and compared it to the older generations will agree that there is a very visible increase in brightness.

I do hope this is true, but to take those accounts from folks replacing projectors with over 500 hours on bulbs in their previous generation projectors doesn't give me any confidence in these claims.

Don't get me wrong as I am very excited to get my first JVC; however, I am also a little concerned about weather I will have enough lumens after 500-600 hours since I have a large screen with no real gain to speak of since I am using an AT screen. I am also currently using a projector that puts out over 1000 measurable lumens after it is calibrated. Now I don't need 1000 lumens, but I need to maintain around 500 lumens for an acceptable picture. At 500 lumens on my 12'x5' 1.1 gain scope screen provides 9 foot lamberts. That is below the recommended 12 foot lamberts but given that my room is a true bat cave (walls covered in black Duvetyn or Commando Cloth, black ceiling, and black carpet) I don't need but about 8-9 foot lamberts to project an acceptable picture in terms of brightness.

So I too hope I am one of those that will be very happy with this purchase...There are others on this forum who have even larger screens than mine that love their JVC projector.
post #1506 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeutsch View Post


Hi Guys,

Just a quick comment to clear up a few things that have been posted.

JVC does not specify the color temperature at which the lumen measurement is made. Anyone who tells you otherwise, does not have their facts right. Having said that, the factory was very clear that the lumen measurement this year is done using the same methods and the same settings as that in previous years. I also think that most people that have seen the new generation and compared it to the older generations will agree that there is a very visible increase in brightness.

While we're talking about color temperature, keep in mind that there can be a big difference between 6500K and D65. As someone pointed out to me recently, 6500K is simply a line on a graph. D65 is a very specific point on that line.

Also, keep in mind that the lamp is rated for 3,000 hours (using standard lamp mode. If you use high lamp exclusively, plan on about 2,000). That is based on the 1/2 life of the lamp. I spoke with one of our senior engineers last week just to confirm that nothing has changed, and he said it is still correct. This means, that at 3,000 hours, the lamp will be down to 50% of it's original brightness.

By the way, I'll add in all the usual disclaimers. Every lamp situation is different. The break-in period is very crucial. Decreases in brightness are usually not linear. After about 100 hours, things stabilize pretty nicely. Power failures during operation are a bad thing and affect lamp life in a negative way (sometimes very negative). Individual usage patterns absolutely affect how long your lamp will last. The lamp is considered a consumable item, so you may or may not get 3,000 hours out of your lamp. This year, more so than in the past, people will use a blend of standard lamp mode for 2D and high lamp mode for 3D, which will also impact the number of hours you actually get. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Yes, to get full brightness you need high lamp, open aperture and short throw. Of course, as pretty much everyone understands, those are all exactly what you don't want for maximum contrast. The point is you can install the projector to match the requirements of your room and your viewing preferences. A lot of people pick a setup that is somewhere in the mid-range of both.

Having said that, my personal experience leads me to believe that there is no reason to worry about being down to only 400 lumens after just 500 hours of viewing.

Lastly, I'm very happy to see that the vast majority of posts from people who have taken delivery of these projectors seem to be very, very happy with their purchase. That's the thing that matters the most.

Chris

Thanks Chris.

I think most front projector owners suffer from the placebo effect and not the true facts on the bulb aging fact. Someone here will write something about the bulb SEEMS to be a lot more dim after so many hours without any true measurements and people run with it.

Thanks for the clarification!!!
post #1507 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerfan33 View Post

Thanks Chris.

I think most front projector owners suffer from the placebo effect and not the true facts on the bulb aging fact. Someone here will write something about the bulb SEEMS to be a lot more dim after so many hours without any true measurements and people run with it.

Thanks for the clarification!!!

There are plenty on here that properly measured their RS20 etc units from new, and noticed they could be 40-60% down within 500 hours.

This is why I wrote earlier in this thread, that I hope that with this new bulb also comes a better slope of brightness loss. I have 80 hours on my projector now and I am fairly confident it is a little less bright than when I first took it out of the box. Chris confirms that is expected. It certainly isn't a huge drop and I can't measure it, but I am confident it is not placebo. The reason I am confident is because I use the hide button in a blacked out room to evaluate black level and I can see that blacks now look even more black on the same settings against the masked area of the screen.
post #1508 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Yes the warm up period is true (at least for me with the Sony, and my LCD monitors) I found it took about 20minutes to get to full warmness

Deja Vu, from reading your posts I would say do not buy the JVC. I know you and you will be obsessed with the ghosting. I think your plan is sound in waiting for a 1080p DLP. There is one problem however. I think that there is a reason we haven't seen 1080p 3D DLPs yet, and I believe it's a limitation of a combination of things including the colour wheel speed, and some other stuff I read (can't remember the thread).

The people who have seen the few 1080p DLPs have had VERY negative things to say about them, which is extremely surprising considering how good the 720p Acer is. When they showed the Sharp, and Samsung at IFA, people complained that the 3D was horrible (especially during motion) and pretty much everyone agreed the JVC was far superior in 3D. There must be a reason that Acer, Optoma, Infocus, etc do not have a 1080p 3D DLP yet.

They have MANY cheap 1080p data projectors for under 1 grand and why do non of them support 3D. Pretty much every DLP should be 3D ready, as they switch on/off instantly, and have over 2000hz refresh rate. I don't think the colour wheel is fast enough to sync a 1080p signal at 120hz input. People described things like triple rainbow effect breakup durring 3D that was much worse then normal rainbows. There is something 100% that is preventing 1080p 3D DLP. They've had 720p 3D projectors for a year and a half now.

At the very least wait for CES, but it doesn't look promising at all.

Hi ,

I have EXACTLY the same warming experience with my new X3 here in Hong Kong. If I play a 3D title immediately after turning on the projector, the ghosting is very terrible... can't even watch... but if I switch it on and play , say some 2D content for around 15 mins, the ghosting improve a lot.... I can't say it gone completely but it is only very subtle. Mine has been upgraded to firmware 1.2 but the situation seem the same.
post #1509 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Jason,

Your screen shots look spectacular. I usually don't get too worked up by screen shots, but it's hard not to get excited by what I'm seeing here - color, sharpness, and, Jeez, Louise, the black level.

I sure wouldn't be basing my evaluation of this projector on screen shots. Screen shots only tell you that the projector actually throws an image. I've seen literally hundreds of screen shots on this forum over the years and many of them look at least as good as these. They were taken to what projectors, that were far inferior to the JVC, supposedly could do. You simply can't get an accurate idea of black level , colour etc. from screen shots since there are just too many variables including the camera.

I going to make a few comments about "ghosting" and why I consider it a serious problem. For me, ghosting is akin to edge enhancement. I remember being in a Best Buy and a salesman was demoing a T.V. for me. He played MIB (DVD). I told him I saw a lot of EE and he just gave me a blank look, so I pointed it out to him. He now knew what EE was for the first time and he would never look at video in the same way again. I had, to some extent, just ruined the experience for him and turned him into a critic! I think that those who can spot EE without thinking about it are going to have a terrible time with ghosting. With RBE you see it to varying degrees or you don't. If you don't see it, it doesn't matter if someone tries to point it out by showing you scenes where he/she sees it. You simply won't see it. Not so with EE or ghosting. You may see it right off the bat or suddenly notice it with more viewing or, heaven forbid, someone points it out to you and ruins you for life.

How many times have I heard - "it's not that bad, I can live with it, or the good outweighs the bad. Funny thing is that when the issue is addressed in a future generation these same people, that could easily life with the artifact, suddenly dump their projector and buy the new one, without the problem. They now come on here and comment that their new projector is so much better since it doesn't have such and such artifact. Yes, the same artifact that supposedly wasn't a problem for them. It was something they could overlook. Yeah right!

Personally, I think that many of the Sony and JVC owners who claim everything they watch is "ghost free" simply haven't noticed it yet, but will. When they do they won't be happy campers. Once you see it your eye will be drawn to it. You can tell someone not to think about "cats", but the first thing they'll do is think about "cats".

Apparently the HP screen accentuates "ghosting". So what we have here is a situation where a screen that really helps with the lack of 3D lumens actually is a negative because it enhances the visibility of an artifact that is caused by the projector and not by the screen. Sounds like a Catch 22 to me.

I have no interest in being the guinea pig for these manufacturers. The "ghosting" issue needs to be addressed. There should be no visible ghosting or, at the least, no more than DLP shows. Am I asking for too much? I am simply not willing to go from a ghost free image to one with ghosting and pay a ton more money for the privilege.

The reason for this rant is simply that I would like to purchase, at a reasonable price, a 1080p 3D projector, with lens sift and some other bells and whistles that does not have the added bonus of "ghosting" thrown in at no extra cost.
post #1510 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeutsch View Post

While we're talking about color temperature, keep in mind that there can be a big difference between 6500K and D65. As someone pointed out to me recently, 6500K is simply a line on a graph. D65 is a very specific point on that line.
Chris

All good points, but this one certainly deserves the separate paragraph Chris gave it. To elaborate/review slightly for everyone, 6500K is a point on a line; an arc, actually, called the black body curve, referring to the temperature of a heated piece of carbon (the hotter the more blue/white, the cooler the more orange/warm). Of course, display panels aren't carbon, and can't be relied upon to be so predictable. You can consider that arc an axis, and imagine a display that would have a graphed reference white point that is closest to the black body curve at the 6500K mark, but is shifted off that axis toward green or cyan. Thus the need for x-y coordinates for D65 (.313/..329) and grayscale/white calibration.

I know you all know that, but it helps to regurgitate it once in a while.

Cheers
post #1511 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post

I know you all know that, but it helps to regurgitate it once in a while.
Cheers

I didn't know that!
post #1512 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I sure wouldn't be basing my evaluation of this projector on screen shots. Screen shots only tell you that the projector actually throws an image. I've seen literally hundreds of screen shots on this forum over the years and many of them look at least as good as these. They were taken to what projectors, that were far inferior to the JVC, supposedly could do. You simply can't get an accurate idea of black level , colour etc. from screen shots since there are just too many variables including the camera.

I going to make a few comments about "ghosting" and why I consider it a serious problem. For me, ghosting is akin to edge enhancement. I remember being in a Best Buy and a salesman was demoing a T.V. for me. He played MIB (DVD). I told him I saw a lot of EE and he just gave me a blank look, so I pointed it out to him. He now knew what EE was for the first time and he would never look at video in the same way again. I had, to some extent, just ruined the experience for him and turned him into a critic! I think that those who can spot EE without thinking about it are going to have a terrible time with ghosting. With RBE you see it to varying degrees or you don't. If you don't see it, it doesn't matter if someone tries to point it out by showing you scenes where he/she sees it. You simply won't see it. Not so with EE or ghosting. You may see it right off the bat or suddenly notice it with more viewing or, heaven forbid, someone points it out to you and ruins you for life.

How many times have I heard - "it's not that bad, I can live with it, or the good outweighs the bad. Funny thing is that when the issue is addressed in a future generation these same people, that could easily life with the artifact, suddenly dump their projector and buy the new one, without the problem. They now come on here and comment that their new projector is so much better since it doesn't have such and such artifact. Yes, the same artifact that supposedly wasn't a problem for them. It was something they could overlook. Yeah right!

Personally, I think that many of the Sony and JVC owners who claim everything they watch is "ghost free" simply haven't noticed it yet, but will. When they do they won't be happy campers. Once you see it your eye will be drawn to it. You can tell someone not to think about "cats", but the first thing they'll do is think about "cats".

Apparently the HP screen accentuates "ghosting". So what we have here is a situation where a screen that really helps with the lack of 3D lumens actually is a negative because it enhances the visibility of an artifact that is caused by the projector and not by the screen. Sounds like a Catch 22 to me.

I have no interest in being the guinea pig for these manufacturers. The "ghosting" issue needs to be addressed. There should be no visible ghosting or, at the least, no more than DLP shows. Am I asking for too much? I am simply not willing to go from a ghost free image to one with ghosting and pay a ton more money for the privilege.

The reason for this rant is simply that I would like to purchase, at a reasonable price, a 1080p 3D projector, with lens sift and some other bells and whistles that does not have the added bonus of "ghosting" thrown in at no extra cost.

Points taken, but...

I've never based a purchase on screen shots. I know their limitations. I just like Jason's. Also, I think I was the first person at 3D Central to point out ghosting issues with the initial Samsung LCD panels that hit the stores. I have no problem seeing ghosting with any display. I just saw it with a Mitsubishi DLP rear pro last night at a local American Electronics store. But ghosting is only one problem with present day 3D technology. All the technologies are flawed. Jason pointed out some of the limitations of the Acer, too - occasional RBE, contrast, resolution. I'll be the first in line for a perfect 3D display (if I can afford it ), but ain't no such animal right now. I'm just glad I can enjoy 3D today in my own home. A couple of years ago, I was afraid I might not see it in my lifetime. I have consciously decided not to stress about the flaws at this point. I still see them, but I don't obsess.
post #1513 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I sure wouldn't be basing my evaluation of this projector on screen shots. Screen shots only tell you that the projector actually throws an image. I've seen literally hundreds of screen shots on this forum over the years and many of them look at least as good as these. They were taken to what projectors, that were far inferior to the JVC, supposedly could do. You simply can't get an accurate idea of black level , colour etc. from screen shots since there are just too many variables including the camera.

I agree, they aren't useful at all for determining the quality of a projector. It is difficult to pick up on the actual dynamic range, especially shadow details. it doesn't take away from the excellent blacks / contrast on the JVC though. I look forward to fade to black scenes now where it really takes my brain into darkness for a few seconds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post



Apparently the HP screen accentuates "ghosting". So what we have here is a situation where a screen that really helps with the lack of 3D lumens actually is a negative because it enhances the visibility of an artifact that is caused by the projector and not by the screen. Sounds like a Catch 22 to me.

I have no interest in being the guinea pig for these manufacturers. The "ghosting" issue needs to be addressed. There should be no visible ghosting or, at the least, no more than DLP shows. Am I asking for too much? I am simply not willing to go from a ghost free image to one with ghosting and pay a ton more money for the privilege.

The reason for this rant is simply that I would like to purchase, at a reasonable price, a 1080p 3D projector, with lens sift and some other bells and whistles that does not have the added bonus of "ghosting" thrown in at no extra cost.

people have different tolerances as to what bothers them with image artifacts. Some like myself can't tolerate RBE, others will zoom in on the occasional ghosting on the Sony/JVC panels.

IMO, the overall 3D quality on the JVC is no doubt better than the Acer, especially when run in Gamma A and 65k color. The blacks / contrast / color / sharpness all take precedent over what the Acer can handle and there is no RBE.

it sounds like there is no projector in the 1080p arena that is going to meet your needs this round, maybe next year? Keep the Acer and enjoy 3D movies in 2011 until the technology changes to suite your needs.
post #1514 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

My projector only has about 12 hours on it, so maybe it will change over time. Gary B mentioned it takes about 20 mins for the machine to come to temperature in regard to final running convergence.

Overall, the 3D IQ quality is great, especially with Gamma (A) @ 65k color temp. I don't mind at all waiting a bit until the projector settles down. All the great qualities of the 2D side come along for the ride into 3D. Color, contrast, blacks, sharpness which made watching Alice 3D a blast on the JVC.

I randomly went through the Popcorn hour C200 to see how it looked on the JVC. Even the 720P cable copy of Star wars looked pretty good. The 2D alone is worth the price for the JVC. These are out of the box settings in Cinema mode.


















Can you please post your settings? If not pm them to me please.
post #1515 of 9972
He mentions out of the box settings in Cinema mode...
post #1516 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeutsch View Post

JVC does not specify the color temperature at which the lumen measurement is made. Anyone who tells you otherwise, does not have their facts right. Having said that, the factory was very clear that the lumen measurement this year is done using the same methods and the same settings as that in previous years. I also think that most people that have seen the new generation and compared it to the older generations will agree that there is a very visible increase in brightness.

If this is so then why has no one (that I am aware of) measured anything close to 1300 lumens?

In past years, many people had measurements close to JVC's specifications.

The same seems to be true for Contrast specifications.

I am not trying to be disagreeable but there seems to be a disconnect between specs and measurements.
post #1517 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

I agree, they aren't useful at all for determining the quality of a projector. It is difficult to pick up on the actual dynamic range, especially shadow details. it doesn't take away from the excellent blacks / contrast on the JVC though. I look forward to fade to black scenes now where it really takes my brain into darkness for a few seconds.




people have different tolerances as to what bothers them with image artifacts. Some like myself can't tolerate RBE, others will zoom in on the occasional ghosting on the Sony/JVC panels.

IMO, the overall 3D quality on the JVC is no doubt better than the Acer, especially when run in Gamma A and 65k color. The blacks / contrast / color / sharpness all take precedent over what the Acer can handle and there is no RBE.

it sounds like there is no projector in the 1080p arena that is going to meet your needs this round, maybe next year? Keep the Acer and enjoy 3D movies in 2011 until the technology changes to suite your needs.

You're doing a good job in your evaluation of the JVC product. I look forward to your comments as you get more time with this projector. I also want to hear from Joseph Clark after he's spent some time with the RS40. You guys have a pretty down-to-earth approach without all the "gushing" superlatives, that turn out to be largely unwarranted later as others point out flaws.

I'm particularly looking forward to a review of both the Sony and JVC by Kris Deering.

P.S. There seems to be several negative comments about the quality of Despicable Me (3D) particularly with respect to "ghosting" from both Sony and JVC owners. I showed this on Friday night and there was no "ghosting" and it looked extremely good. In fact, my audience gave it a standing ovation. This has never happened in my HT before and left me sitting there somewhat shocked.
post #1518 of 9972
Thread Starter 
Zombie/Jason,

Your screenshots almost had me salivating! Expecially the 2nd one of TS-Woody. HP screens really do have that Plasma like effect, you simply cannot beat that. I am just wondering that with all the good, there is some minor bad artifacts to deal with, but I would still opt for an HP screen in a heart beat if I could. But I like my AT screen wall set up way too much to make such a compromise. here is hoping someone steps up and offers at least a 2.0 gain perf screen in the near future.
post #1519 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTS View Post

Hi ,

I have EXACTLY the same warming experience with my new X3 here in Hong Kong. If I play a 3D title immediately after turning on the projector, the ghosting is very terrible... can't even watch... but if I switch it on and play , say some 2D content for around 15 mins, the ghosting improve a lot.... I can't say it gone completely but it is only very subtle. Mine has been upgraded to firmware 1.2 but the situation seem the same.

I thought I was going crazy, so I only said something after 3 cold starts / warm up periods to verify the ghosting dimishes significantly after a bit of warm up time. There are 3 others who stating a similar experience in the RS50 thread, so about 5 people in total so far who are picking up on this.

maybe this will change as the panels age. I believe Gary B from JVC mentioned there is ~20 minute period until the system is at even operating temperature and final convergence settles in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

You're doing a good job in your evaluation of the JVC product. I look forward to your comments as you get more time with this projector. I also want to hear from Joseph Clark after he's spent some time with the RS40. You guys have a pretty down-to-earth approach without all the "gushing" superlatives, that turn out to be largely unwarranted later as others point out flaws.

I think it's important to be as objective as possible. I said early on the JVC would get no specific Kudos just given the spec sheet / price point. My impressions are from the seat, I am resisting to run the AVS disk to find every minute flaw this projector may have. I think some refer to is as 'analysis paralysis'. My main concern was convergence, color uniformity and even focus across the entire screen which I am pleased overall with this particular copy of the RS40.

The warm up time until the ghosting fades away isn't really a problem for me right now, I'm just glad that it isn't stuck in this mode and after a bit of time, the overall 3D IQ is nice, especially on the HP screen.

I'll check out despicable me 3D by this weekend and see how it compares to the Acer. I am still keeping the Acer, likely for just watching TV since I would leave this thing on all day without a care.


Quote:
Originally Posted by damnsam77 View Post

Zombie/Jason,

Your screenshots almost had me salivating! Expecially the 2nd one of TS-Woody. HP screens really do have that Plasma like effect, you simply cannot beat that. I am just wondering that with all the good, there is some minor bad artifacts to deal with, but I would still opt for an HP screen in a heart beat if I could. But I like my AT screen wall set up way too much to make such a compromise. here is hoping someone steps up and offers at least a 2.0 gain perf screen in the near future.

Sam, a total of 5 people have reported in with the warmup period for the reduction of ghosting, I don't know how many have the HP screen. As I mentioned earlier, it's only about 20 mins or so until it settles down, then I have no problem with it. I think this will probably change as I get more hours on the projector, there is only a total 20 hours on it so far.

As Deja pointed out, the SS's aren't scientific, just fun to look at. I will say these are the first SS's i've taken that are about as close as the eye sees in person. The blacks / contrast on the JVC in 2D are excellent and for that alone makes the price point worth it.
post #1520 of 9972
I've read a lot on this thread, but here's the question...I have a carada bw screen, 106", 14 foot throw. My eye one (with my current proj/epson 6500) tells me I'm at 12 ft/l (this proj has about 300 hrs on it). I know this is not the most reliable reading, just a frame of reference. Has anyone measured the rs40 with this meter, and what kind of brightness do you think I can expect after the 1000 hour mark, with the iris fully open?
post #1521 of 9972
I have a thought on the "ghosting diminishes after warm-up" issue. We know that one of DLP's biggest advantages wrt ghosting is that DLP mirrors switch at the speed of light (OK, really at the speed of its pivoting mirrors, which is extremely fast). There's no phosphor lag or LCD (and LCoS) transitioning for DLP mirrors (pixels) to contend with. Perhaps it's just a simple matter of D-ILA warming up enough to switch states faster. If this is a crock, someone please correct it. Maybe Chris or Gary could comment on the technical reason for it.

And lest we contribute to HP disinformation here, I think any "contribution" to ghosting by the HP is really a function of its brightness, not the HP itself. Ghosting is a function of the display and/or the glasses (and perhaps the individual's sensitivity), not the screen. Again, brightness is easy to fix, dimness not so much. Get the HP down to the same brightness level as other screens and I suspect the ghosting would be the same, with comparable improvement as the projector warms up. Further observations and measurements will prove or disprove that notion.
post #1522 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

And lest we contribute to HP disinformation here, I think any "contribution" to ghosting by the HP is really a function of its brightness, not the HP itself.

Indeed. The HP constantly gets credit for doing "active" things. If these were true, the fabric would be a modern materials science miracle!
post #1523 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

P.S. There seems to be several negative comments about the quality of Despicable Me (3D) particularly with respect to "ghosting" from both Sony and JVC owners. I showed this on Friday night and there was no "ghosting" and it looked extremely good. In fact, my audience gave it a standing ovation. This has never happened in my HT before and left me sitting there somewhat shocked.

I understand this completely. Ask a person who hasn't seen a good 3D demo and they're as likely as not to tell you they have no interest, or repeat the "It's a gimmick" line that 3D detractors like to pull out as though it actually meant something (sorry, but I think that argument is incredibly short sighted). I love to show people 3D. It usually gets them as excited as it does me. I can't wait to get the RS40, and that's one of the big reasons. I want people to feel as moved as I do. I gush plenty about 3D.

Afterthought: One of my regrets about 3D is that one of my best friends is legally blind in one eye, and he will never see it. I have to remember that when I'm talking to him. He's spent more on his audio gear than I did on my house, and I really enjoy talking audio with him, and listening to music in his four or five different listening areas. But, he'll never "get" 3D. Other people are simply "stereo blind." Some can learn to see 3D with training, but some never will. I wonder how many of 3D's detractors fall into this group. (No need to get defensive. I realize that many people see 3D but still don't care for it. Different strokes. )
post #1524 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I sure wouldn't be basing my evaluation of this projector on screen shots. Screen shots only tell you that the projector actually throws an image.

It's a shame that this has to constantly be repeated, but I guess unfortunately it does!
post #1525 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

If this is so then why has no one (that I am aware of) measured anything close to 1300 lumens?

In past years, many people had measurements close to JVC's specifications.

The same seems to be true for Contrast specifications.

I am not trying to be disagreeable but there seems to be a disconnect between specs and measurements.

good question, I'm interested to see the answer.
post #1526 of 9972
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeutsch View Post

JVC does not specify the color temperature at which the lumen measurement is made. Anyone who tells you otherwise, does not have their facts right. Having said that, the factory was very clear that the lumen measurement this year is done using the same methods and the same settings as that in previous years.

It may be true that the factory is using the same methods and settings as before (I'll get to why I am skeptical about that being true for the RS50/60 later), but that does not mean that JVC is specing the same as before because there is more than just the factory. There is the design of the projector. In the past JVC has designed to get close to D65 optically (with no optional filter).

So, in the past when the factory measured peak light output they were going to be in the ballpark of D65. At least that is my take from what I know of some of these models, including taking things apart and looking inside (like the HD2K that I modified).

IMO, this is one reason that JVC has had a good reputation around here for being able to be very close to their specs even while calibrated correctly (although with the caveat that peak lumens is one calibration and peak on/off CR is another calibration).
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdeutsch View Post

I also think that most people that have seen the new generation and compared it to the older generations will agree that there is a very visible increase in brightness.

If we are talking about people comparing to older bulbs on older projectors and especially people who are going by memory (don't actually have the other projector around) then that only means so much. I've compared using a meter with an RS50 that JVC says is within spec for lumens and I don't really see this increase in brightness unless the projectors aren't calibrated. At D65 and REC.709 primaries and secondaries with new lamps for both projectors, would you claim that the RS50 is actually brighter than the RS20? If so, on what basis? Or is it that it would be "visibly brighter", but not measure brighter?

From what I have heard the way that JVC gets close to their calibrated lumens on the RS50/RS60 is to pick no color profile and when this is done there is no user control of even brightness and contrast. If everything I've heard is true it looks suspiciously like JVC put this mode in there in order to increase their spec, which sure seems different than previous years and more like what most of the competition does. I don't recall any need or even option to pick no color profile on the HD2K, RS1, RS20, or RS35 in order to get close to the spec, so not sure how the factory now using this choice in order to measure the peak lumens is the same as previous years.

If you feel I'm wrong about that please explain what mode people are supposed to use on the RS50 in order to get the speced lumens, other than the things we agreed on that were the same as previous years (high lamp, close throw, open aperture).

BTW: I realize that this is the RS40 thread, but the comments I was responding to seemed to be about all the models. I don't see an option to choose no color mode in the RS40 and honestly can't figure out any settings that would even get in the ballpark of the lumens spec for the one RS40 I've measured. Finding a mode that would get close to the specs didn't seem to be difficult in previous years (other than an RS2 that I measured which seemed to be well below the spec, but where it wasn't near the short end of the throw and so that likely at least contributed).

BTW2: I would be happy to be proven wrong and that these things can get close to their lumens spec in a mode that is adjustable and reasonable, like previous years. That said, I still think the RS40 is largely a steal for the money for multiple reasons, including that we get the 3D mode without paying the huge premium that normally comes with a new thing like that.

--Darin
post #1527 of 9972
Researching this issue, on the Nvidia forums, lots of folks are reporting "resolution" issues with the 260.xx line of drivers (the current release). Now upon quick check, I didn't see the same issue being reported (that of doubled horizontal resolution) as most of the posts there are game related, but it wouldn't surprise me that with different hardware one could get different results.

If someone could test the older drivers as linked to here:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=185427

BTW, these should solve any stuttering issues that occur with the 260.xx line.

Nvidia forums are reporting tons of issues with the 260.xx drivers:
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?s...ilter=all&st=0

I am currently running a "hacked" (i.e. custom inf set of drivers to allow install onto my desktop based gts 450) v265 of drivers that seem to work pretty well, but am considering moving back to the <200 line of drivers as those worked even better.

I don't have my RS40 yet, so I can't test.
post #1528 of 9972
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Ask a person who hasn't seen a good 3D demo and they're as likely as not to tell you they have no interest, or repeat the "It's a gimmick" line that 3D detractors like to pull out as though it actually meant something (sorry, but I think that argument is incredibly short sighted). I love to show people 3D. It usually gets them as excited as it does me. I can't wait to get the RS40, and that's one of the big reasons. I want people to feel as moved as I do. I gush plenty about 3D.

Exactly! We wouldn't be "Gushing" about how good the 3D looked on these JVC projectors if they weren't worth "gushing" about

Most people who are slamming 3D may have only seen it on a 50"-60" display, or worse, have not even taken the time to demo it at a friend's house in a ontrolled environment where there is no "store noise" or the godawful flourescant light throughout the stores.

Most people that slightly enjoyed the depressed 3D effect in commercial theaters are up for a real treat with these new JVCs.

And I will add my name to the list of people who are tired of hearing about this $500 ACER, which cannot and will not touch the blacks and contrast levels of the JVC projectors. I can see the appeal with 720P 3D for $500, that is a lot of 3D bang for the buck, but that's where it ends. It's 720P, it requires an Nivida equipped HTPC, nVidia 3D glasses, and not to mention the fact that the Acer cannot compete with the sheer PQ of the RS40/50/60 in 2D presentations which accounts for 99% of the blu-ray and HD content out there. And I am not ragging on the Acer because its 1/6th the cost of the RS40, but most people will simply not be ecstatic with a dual projection set up, one for 2D and one for 3D, and the use of HTPC. There is a WHOLE WORLD of J6P's out there that accounts for 90% of consumers out there, and none of them will go through the trouble of having dual projectors and an HTPC.

And this is the exact reason why we're saying the RS40/50 is a WONDERFUL compromise for 3D, and one of the best projectors for 2D under $10,000.
post #1529 of 9972
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

Sam, a total of 5 people have reported in with the warmup period for the reduction of ghosting, I don't know how many have the HP screen. As I mentioned earlier, it's only about 20 mins or so until it settles down, then I have no problem with it. I think this will probably change as I get more hours on the projector, there is only a total 20 hours on it so far.

As Deja pointed out, the SS's aren't scientific, just fun to look at. I will say these are the first SS's i've taken that are about as close as the eye sees in person. The blacks / contrast on the JVC in 2D are excellent and for that alone makes the price point worth it.

I will keep an eye on mine with the ghosting, but as far as screenshots, scientific or not, they look super fantabulous!!! I am jealous so keep them coming please
post #1530 of 9972
Hey Damnsam -

Do you plan on buying Resident Evil Afterlife 3d coming out around Dec. 28th.

I would really love to hear your impressions.
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