Official JVC RS40/X3 Owners Thread - Page 67

Why then do you think JVC chose to implement it this way then if it is an inferior approach? Is it because they did not do 240hz panels? Do you anticipate that may be the big difference between next years models?

Yep....


Yep, that is the way it is...




Nope, because the Sony glasses shut for a longer time, they reduce the light more than the JVC glasses. The JVC goes from 500 Lumens to about aprox. 150, the Sony goes down from 900 to aprox. 130.




Oh yes they do. You forget that the black level even of modern LCOS projectors ist not really black, but you still perceive it as dark gray. The shutter glasses do reduce light and improve Black level by the same percentage at the same time. It is like putting an ND filter in front of the lens or normal sunglasses on your nose.

You can easily check that: Just put a black screen in 3D on and look thru the glasses, you will see a much darker black level with the Sony. And not so much with the JVC, as its glasses have longer open times.

Sunglasses or Shutter glasses do not reduce the On / Off contrast much, but reducing light digitally in the projector does. This is the whole advantage of optical (filter) D65-calibration vs. digital D65-calibration also. First keeps the full contrast by improving black level, second just costs light without change in black level and therefore reduces contrast.



First scenario is right for the Sony, it has no screen blanking at all. Second scenario ist right for the JVC.


Regards,
Ekkehart

Can the emitter be mounted on the projector itself for those doing ceiling mounts, or do you have to mount it separately on the ceiling as well?

I did not say it is an inferior approach. The JVC seems to keep some more brightness than the Sony. The Sony on the other hand has no noise and keeps full contrast in 3D. Ghosting is about the same...

Is is just a matter of preferences...

Regards,
Ekkehart

Agreed it is how you perceive it I suppose. When I read reduced contrast and increased noise, I think inferior. Then again at this stage of 3D with pj lamps being what they are, maybe it is better after all to go for the brighter image.

It seems that given a choice, I guess it would be better to have a brighter more exciting picture with some loss of contrast and some noise, than to have a higher contrast and clean image that's too dim to really enjoy...

Do you think JVC will work toward at 240hz solution next year and would such a solution benefit their design?

SXRD response speed is 2ms. Framerate in 3D is max. 120Hz.

Regards,
Ekkehart

This isn't the best video, but maybe it will help some people picture what is going on at the 1/1000th of a second level, at least until one of us gets a better video. This is with someone else's RS40 (I should get to open mine later tonight) and is a video at 1000 frames per second where I tried to capture both the left and right eyes of the Xpand 103 glasses as well as a shot through the opening for the nose (so showing what the RS40 itself is putting up on the screen). This is with a Casio camera that has trouble capturing enough light at 1000 FPS.

Some things that I've seen from looking at this on the camera where I can single step the frames is that the number of frames from peak light to peak light from the projector is about 10 (so 10 msec worth) and for each lens it is about 20 (so 20 msec worth), for this case. I think this was Avatar, so 24Hz material.

http://s390.photobucket.com/albums/o...at1000fps1.mp4

--Darin

To the JVC guys:

The EDID/output format problem isn't limited to nVidia. Similar things happen with my new ATI 6850 - but only if I route the HDMI video through my Onkyo 507 receiver. If I do so, 1080p24 results in the JVC going out of sync and misunderstanding the video format. 1080p60 works, though. If I directly connect the HTPC to the JVC, the problem goes away.

Hi Ekke

Ok, got your point on the contrast issue and I agree, even though I wouldn't have thought it was a noticeable issue.
The question is: why all cinemas in the world are using projector dark time to change status of their XpanD glasses? Is the ghosting the same within the two brands? I would think that switching status with a picture on the screen would add ghosting since glasses do not shut light completely.

What is the response speed of DILA panels? 1/120 = 8ms, can I assume 4ms?

If this is the case, the different scenarios would be

SONY
Shut time=1ms
Image swap=2ms
Shut time=1ms
TOTAL=4ms

JVC
Blank image=4ms
Glass swap=1ms
De-Blank Image=4ms
TOTAL= 9ms

If my numbers are correct Sony should be more light efficient (overall) but it is not. Where do you think the mistake is in my numbers?

Anyway, I've got your points, thanks.

Contrast ratio of the glasses seem to be high enough. When you set the Mistubishi HC9000 (SXRD) for example to 3D low mode (shut times longest), you can almost eliminate even bad mastering caused ghosting. Unfortunately, this loses much light.




Yup, this seems to be about correct. The shut / open times with SXRD are about 1/240 sec - 1/240sec although the exact timing is not totally clearly documented by Sony.


Unfortunately, JVC does not give out any comparable response time values.

Also, the JVC times are not that easy to calculate as JVC is using a fully digital driving of their D-ILA panels by PWM. That way they dont need any charge storage to drive the crystals, which saves time.

Also I know that they can improve response time by inserting darktimes and raising the driving voltage. So this is probably the main reason why they chose that way for 3D.

The digital D-ILA works more like DLP now and less like conventional LCD / LCOS. That is why we see the typical DMD-artefacts now all of the sudden.



Regards,
Ekkehart

That makes sense: if they already uses some dark time to improve response time, use 3D with projector dark time is the natural choice.

With raising driving voltage you mean the RTC (Response Time Compensation) seen in LCD displays?

Thanks
Tony

Yes, you can mount it on the projector if you choose.

Yes exactly, it is a way of Overdriving the pixels. That is by the way also one of the main reaons for noise and dithering in bright levels.

Regards,
Ekki

I am getting what looks like purple trailing/color bleed on my unit extending out the top of lettering just in the vertical direction (it is slightly there on the bottom as well)........this is most easy to see with white lettering such as in the menu or on the still big Oppo logo that sits above the blu ray logo (this purple trailing extends a few inches or so above the vertical white bars in the P's on the still Oppo logo) or in movie credits if I pause them. In the menu, these trails extend all the way from one menu item to another if you look close I assume this is not normal, but does anyone else see what I am talking about? Does anyone know what this is?

I tried doing a pixel shift with all 3 colors vertical and horizontal and it does not help at all. I also tried HDMI2 which does the same thing and tried out my HD-DVD player which shows the same thing, and also tried a different HDMI cable so it is definitely the RS40.

I dont have a camera or I would snap a shot.

What am I seeing here????

Sounds like it could be misconvergence. Look at a white grid pattern (on the AVS Disk)...If the R, G, & B panels are perfectly aligned the grid will look white. If they're not (and very few are perfect) you'll see various colors depending on how they mis-align. Kevin posted some shots from his projector in the RS50 thread. His is nicely converged....

Are you using the 6850 for 3D bluray playback? if I recall, the 507 is a 1.3 HDMI AVR. Wouldn't you be running HDMI-> projector, DVI-> HDMI -> AVR for HD audio?

I can get the Nvidia 430GT to sync to 1080p60 going through my Pioneer SC-07, but also cannot sync to 1080p24 either, so the entire 4x and 5x Nvidia series is out of the question for now since direct connection to the projector is broken. I reported this to Gary B (JVC employee in the UK) I hope JVC support fixes this issue soon.

I am using the 5450 right now with 10.11 CC, Total Media Theater 5 and forced to run with core audio. HD audio works, but breaks up from time to time and have tried all CC drivers 10.10 through 10.12. Since this card wasn't supposed to support frame backed 3D BD playback, I am ok with this for now but thought about picking up a 6850 since another member got it working ok with 3D BD playback and HD audio via Powerdvd 10.

As Geof said it could be convergence. If it isn't, it could be the lens causing chromatic aberrations. Is the trail "soft" looking ? The best way to know for sure is to play with controls that are moving the optics.

1. Try moving the focus back and forth to see if it improve or worsen the purple trail.
2. Move the lens shift to both extremes.
3. zoom to both extremes
4. Close or open the iris all the way.

I am having this same issue with ati 6870 and power DVD 10. I though it was good to go till i sat down to what a whole movie.

Did you have any luck the the realtek driver?

My convergence is good. I have the AVS disc and have checked that pattern. Like I said, even if I purposely knock the convergence out of whack to the other extreme, this purple trail/ghost type thing is still there.

The trail is soft looking and pretty faint. I will try these things and report back.

ouch - i'm glad you said something, I was getting ready to pick up a 6850 from newegg tonight. I am going to try the realtek driver later tonight, didn't get a chance yet. The HD audio cuts out 5-6 times throughout the movie, maybe a bit more. I can see the Pioneer switching from DTS-HD Master audio to 'stereo' for a brief second.

I also tried the specific ATI DVI dongle and couldn't get audio out on that channel either.

This is a bummer, the Nvidia 430GT worked perfect with HD audio in Power DVD 10 and TMT5. JVC really needs to address this problem... I have used the 430GT on a Samsung LCD, Panasonic G15 Plasma, Mitsubishi HC5500 FP and the Acer 5360 without a problem. It's definitely a bug in the JVC firmware that Petri reported when he had the pre-production X7.

I'll send you PM if I have any luck later.

Sounds very severe but could you be seeing motion fringing? Is CMD on mode 1 or 2? if so set it to off and see if the condition changes...

Good thought, but CMD is OFF and this is on a still screen such as the menu lettering and the BIG Oppo logo that sits above the blu ray symbol.

Sorry don't have the oppo - thought the logo may have been moving...

I tried all this and it did not seem to help or hurt it. My convergence is maybe 1/4 pixel out, but even if I shift it all the way one way or the other it shows the same issues..........more on the top of the lettering, but it also shows it on the bottom.

I'd appreciate it if you'd post your results here. I need to know as much as I can about these issues. I was going to try a Radeon 5770 when my Yamaha RX-A3000 and the RS40 arrive. If I had to get it working right now, my best bet looks like an nVidia 430 going through the HDMI 1.4 Yamaha. I think others have reported success this way (that is, if the computer signal goes first to an HDMI 1.4 receiver and doesn't have to try to negotiate with the JVC directly). If anyone else has success with AMD or nVidia cards and the RS40, those of us with HTPCs could benefit from the information. I hope JVC works this out soon with nVidia. As of right now, I have no idea when my RS40 will arrive. By the time it does, both nVidia and AMD may have the driver situation worked out, and I might not need a new video card.

Ok so it's not lens chromatic aberrations, nor convergence. The last thing I can think of, if it's faint (like 10% or less) it could be a bad anti-reflective coating on some optical parts, or some internal reflections. Or maybe aberrations caused by the optical block (i.e. before the lens).
Other than that, I have no more ideas

Thanks for the help Not sure what is going on.

Todd, does your RS40 seem to have a better image after the unit warms up as has been mentioned here?...Because I just now noticed this seems to be the case with my unit as well...

Yes, I have noticed a warm up period is needed.........maybe 10 minutes or so for best quality. This issue I have now though does not go away no matter how long it is on