Official JVC RS40/X3 Owners Thread - Page 321

Lots of companies are working on laser light sources. But there are problems and obstacles which still need to be overcome and solutions just don't look imminent. Costs are a big impediment as well as specle and safety. Lasers of higher power are subject to heavy regulation to protect the user. Obviously, there have been good demonstrations of prototypes and simulation machines. But for the consumer nothg yet. Redseems to be the closest right now but they have cost prioblems and are talking about releasing commercil machines first which don't have the restraints of consumer machines price wise. Laser siources are expensive.

My gut there won't be a consumer machine this year from anybody.

I saw a video, but it was for the commercial market, when for the HT? I don't want to buy an other one with a lamp!

Not an analogy I would have made.

Mine goes more like:

I bought a lower up-market car, say an Infiniti M-37 (50-60k as opposed to 250k Lambo) whose transmission was specified to last 70k miles. The transmission began slipping after a few thousand miles and then failed catastrophically at 17k miles (25% of speced lifetime). If the problem was with tires, I could have bought another brand at Firestone down around the corner at a cost of 2% of my "investment"...but the problem was with the drive train that is intrinsic to the design of the car I just spent $50k on and can only be replaced by the same transmission from the OEM.

Because there were many customers who were experiencing the same thing, Infiniti offered to replace the transmissions when they failed. They made some tweaks in an attempt to fix the root cause of the defective design, but the revised design also failed prematurely. Then, despite the fact that the advertised lifetime of the transmission was 70k miles, by the time I was on my 3rd transmission and the new models came out, Infiniti told me they were going to stop replacing my transmission for free....even though I only had 40k miles on the car that I had planned to drive for 100k miles when I bought it.

I wanted to just sell the car and buy something more reliable, but the resale value of it had tanked because of the notoriety of the transmission problem.

Now who thinks for a nanosecond this would have flied in the automotive industry?

We have Lemon Laws for situations like this in that industry.

Look...the lifetime and failure mechanisms of tires and bulbs are not black magic. They are known parameters that are validated through analysis and testing. Is there some variance around the mean value? Of course....but it's not 25% of the mean and it's not all on the low side. These lamps are performing at a fraction of their specified value because the design is defective. No customer or retailer should ever attempt to rationalize the poor quality.

My wife bought me the original Star Trek series 1-2-3 on blu-ray for my birthday in January. I've been watching them on and off over the past couple of months (still the best show on TV). Anyway, being in 4:3 format I can see the black of space next to the empty sides on my 16:9 screen.

The outer space black is blacker than the sides. So it occurs to me, that perhaps JVC is showing black as a color rather than the absence of light as many displays try to do. I don't know if that makes sense from a scientific point of view, but that's the thought that occurred to me. I wonder if that's how JVC does it.

Have you calibrated your projector? If there's a substantial difference, then your black level (brightness) is set too high.

Thanks. There is not a substantial difference. My projector has not been calibrated but setup with Disney WOW. I don't think this pj requires calibration.

Using WOW or S&M will get you about 80% of the way there, but every display needs some type of calibration (whether your eyes will be able to notice or not, that I can't tell you). In my case, the RS40 was very good out of the box, but once it was calibrated to D65 the image was vastly improved.

Any projector, including this one, "requires" calibration if you want to get the best picture it can deliver. I used to feel as you do, that a good calibration is just icing on the cake. But then I got a Lumagen/C6/CalMAN setup to do automated 125 pt color cube and 21 step gamma calibrations and the results are just stunning on my RS20! So any calibration you can do, especially gamma, is well worth it. Gamma is almost more important than color, it's the easiest to do and any projector will benefit from a good consistent gamma curve.

Well said...a proper gamma really brings out the shadow detail and depth.

Or even the way sunlight pours in a window and lights up a desk and someone's face. It's not just for shadow detail, although I wholeheartedly agree with you there! It really is amazing.

With all this talk of gamma, what do you guys use? I've been going with 2.35 with a notch down to 2.25 at 15% and below, but there is still something a bit off about it.

It's been a while, but I believe I used a custom gamma curve.

I used whatever Chris Deering used in the early days of this thread but it seemed a bit off also. So I switched it down one notch to 2.2 and it seemed much much better. I was surprised how a small adjustment in the gamma could have so much impact.

Every bulb and projector is different so one person's settings may not translate very well to what you have.

I would have used an ISF to do mine but he wanted $700 and said it was because the RS40 was incredibly hard to calibrate and get it right. Previously he had done a great job on my Sharp 12000 MKII and Samsung LED RPTV. Both on the same day for less than $700. So I figured Chris's numbers would be close enough.

$700 is pretty steep.

Before we assume my pj needs calibrating, has anyone else tried similar material?

All pj's need calibrating. Some more than others but nevertheless.

I find it hard to believe in-image blacks being darker than the letterbox black. Maybe it's an optical illusion. For $200 or less, a colorimeter would give a definitive answer. It would also let you calibrate as many displays as you like, as many times as you like, whenever you like, for less than the cost of a single pro calibration.

I agree that it could be an optical illusion. The middle portion appearing blacker due to the relative contrast provided by the stars. Perhaps one of you folks with the proper equipment can take a reading of the footlamberts on 4:3 material in the middle and along the side.

And I don't agree that all projectors need calibration. Whenever someone uses an absolute, I become skeptical. There are many specs released in home theater mag, where the out of the box pj is spot on or close to it these days. Also, human vision is analog. If I have a ton of guests come over and say that the picture on my big screen is better than that which they can achieve on their small screens, then that is more than adequate. This is especially true if there's nothing else in the room to compare it to. It means that my guests are thoroughly enjoying their experience in my home.

I also have taken an ISF class, granted it was some years ago, with Joel Silver. But I don't have experience in the field and I won't pretend to be an expert. I know that colorimeters cannot always measure low black levels accurately. I know that colorimeters need calibration from time to time.

Unless you do a blind A/B you cannot prove to me that the differences will be perceptible.

While "need" is perhaps too strong a word, especially in light of the subjective issues you bring up, "can benefit from" is definitely true. And I understand what you say about your guests. I realized I was on the wrong CMS setting during a battle scene (by eye, BTW) and changed it. One of my guests quipped, "yeah... the mud wasn't muddy enough." But there are some absolutes in this projector world. All light bulbs are different and will change during their life. All projectors come out of the shoot a little different. And all screens/room setups are different. Absolute, no question.

I would say that Home Theater Mag is doing a relatively rudimentary measurement even by today's DIY standards if they are simply measuring primaries and secondaries at one stimulus level, measuring the gamma curve and gray scale and calling it a day. Things are moving extremely quickly with extremely accurate and fast colorometers that are indeed very sensitive and accurate at very low light levels. There is much more to the formula than most "OOB" review measurements.

Nobody needs to prove anything to you. It's all what makes us happy. My "proof" is anecdotal, just like yours. After a proper calibration I get guests saying "who needs 3D?" and "that is simply a stunning movie" and the latest after a big film buff watched Skyfall... "I've never seen anything like that, ever!" And he saw Skyfall in a commercial theater before.

Star light illusion is what I was thinking too. If I have time I will measure a starfield vs letterbox to make sure e=mc^2.

I am a Skeptic, but some things are for all practical purposes absolute like gravity makes **** fall down not up. High-end display manufacturers may be getting better at not f*cking up your picture out of the box but that does not mean they are fully calibrated. The factory ships their displays out with a single set of predefined settings. One set of settings cannot work equally well on every unique unit that goes out. So it depends on your definition of calibrated. If you're happy with dE < 20, you might be fine with a preset on a high-end make. If you want dE < 3 and a flat gamma curve at a gamma of your liking, you'll need to make adjustments. Also, even if the manufacturer calibrated each unit individually at the factory, your room will present entirely different characteristics, and performance will drift during usage.

If your objective is to impress your friends that is fine, but that doesn't mean your greyscale is balanced. In fact, I'm sure at least a couple of your guests noticed that your x value is .323 at IRE 30 but just didn't say anything because that's rude behavior for a house guest. I'm kidding but the point is you calibrate not to make friends go wow but to know in your little heart that you have as correct a picture as you can. Some people care about that more than others.

Ever get fitted for glasses by an optometrist? You know how they make you sit your chin on a thing and swap lenses and ask you "One, or two?" "Two, or three?" "Ok, now one, or three?" Suppose they didn't do that side-by-side A/B testing and just took their best guess at your prescription. If the doc is pretty good, you'll end up with a decent but sub-optimal pair of glasses. You will take your glasses home and be happy you're not blind anymore. That your prescription is off will probably be "imperceptible" and you may never realize it. But why would you want that.

Excellent analogy... really is to the point.

Every projector can benefit from some sort of calibration, even if it's just with a calibration disc. I used a combination of WoW and DVE. I would love to have a meter and can afford one but my thoughts are since the RS40 has a very limited CMS I might as well save my pennies and get a Lumagen and a meter with auto-calibrate. Plus it is an investment I could move to other projectors down the road.

With just using DVE and WoW I was able to dial in a picture that maintains excellent blacks and shadow detail, with good color and enough depth to the picture that as erkq says "who needs 3D".

Could I do better with a meter? Yes I could. I am totally happy with things at the moment and when the upgrade itch starts to pop up I'll consider a meter and such.

If one never experiments with changing the OOTB settings they can never realize what any projector is capable of.

This is an excellent plan and one that I am very happy with. I have a lowly RS20 with the full CalMAN 125 pt. auto-calibrate system and we just watched Life of Pi last night. All agreed.... absolutely stunning, especially the animals and scenery before things got weird. This great calibration is the best investment I've ever made in my HT.

I just recently got Chromapure with the advanced auto calibrate and Display 3 Pro colorimeter to calibrate my RS40 with Lumagen XD processor. I have always set brightness/contrast to 0 when using either a Avia, video essentials, or Disney WOW calibration disc using an Oppo 93 connected to Lumagen then to projector with HDMI set to standard. When I bring up the Chromapure pluge pattern brightness needs to be set anywhere between 2-4 but when using the calibration discs brightness appears correct at 0.

Has anyone else encountered this issue?

and

Is everyone that is using HDMI standard have their JVC's brightness set to 0 or something else?

Thanks,
Mike

Even though I don't have a meter, I ran into this same issue. A friend who has the same projector ran into the issue as well and what he pointed me to was not having my iris open far enough. I opened mine up to about -7 (from -13), messed with the custom gamma curves, then went and adjusted contrast and brightness, back to gamma, then back to contrast/brightness. I got more movement on both C&B and this really brought out the PQ and added a ton of depth to the image. My picture is a tad on the bright side, but nothing is blooming.

Will likely buy a light meter so I can get it in the recommended range and then adjust again.

Thanks, yeah I had to turn my projector on High lamp and open iris to about -5 to get a little over 14 ftl to do calibration. Before calibration I had my iris at -9 and was using Low lamp, I was probably only getting 8-9 ftl at most. I'm at about 470 hours on my lamp which is a 003 lamp and calibrated on a 1.5 gain(though its been reported its closer to a 1.2 gain) 92" diagonal 16:9 screen. I use the same screen without the masks for a 125" diagonal 2.35 screen with a UH480 anamorphic lens and the brightness is just a tad less but bigger of course I'm going to play around with settings a little more and I read calibration thread for the RS40 and there was a good description of using the Black Level adjustment on the RS40 that I will check that might help me.

Thanks for your input,
Mike

I've decided to mount my RS40 to the ceiling. When I pulled out the manual it looks like it's saying I need a mount with four mounting points. My mount has only three. Can anyone advise me on whether I need a new mount or is there and alternative?

I have a Chief RPA mount for my ceiling mounted RS 40. I also have a mounting plate + lens , from memory I believe the RS 40 is connected to 6 screws to the ceiling mount, and 4 screws (longer) to the mounting plate for the lens, (where the feet are, they must be removed to connect the plate).

The Chief RPA mounts are not that expensive, it is the lumagen slider, lens, plate, etc that quickly add up :-)

Guys have a 3D Question:

I'm getting loads of crosstalk etc and it's causing eye strain as well. I've read a number of the posts re: this problem and it seems like the RS40 just ain't great doing 3d,

I'd like to try bringing the emitter to the front of the room and pointing it directly at the glasses instead of having it at the back of the room bouncing off the screen.

Anyone know where/how to get an extension cable?

Cheers.