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PRO-101FD vs VT25 Difference Is Absolutely Shocking!

post #1 of 50
12/14/10 at 7:27pm
Thread Starter 
I have a VT25, which I love and is going in the living room.

However, I recently found a like-new PRO-101FD (for the entertainment room), which I went ahead and bought. I was waiting for next year's Panny, but I went ahead and bought the Kuro now. I hooked up the Kuro tonight...

I have a Blu-Ray player with twin-HDMI (two HDMI out slots), so I figured why not hook them both up to the same Blu-Ray player in the same room, turn off all the lights and see if I could tell the difference.

I was expecting them to both basically be the same except better blacks on the PRO-101FD. I was wrong.

The difference is totally staggering!!

First off, when they are both in the same (pitch-black) room, the blacks on the VT25 look totally grey. Like, grey. If I turn the Kuro off, the blacks on the VT25 look black again, but with them both running the VT25 can't compete. Especially the black bars on 2.40:1 movies...I can't even tell where the bezel begins/ends on the Kuro!

Secondly is the skin tones. There's a big difference. With them both in the same room, the people on the VT25 look they have orange spray-on-tans. It's quite noticeable with the PRO-101FD running. Skin tones are much more realistic on the Kuro.

Finally, and it's hard to describe...the colors on the Kuro look more realistic. When comparing them both, it's like the VT25's colors are "doctored up" or something.

In other words, WOW!
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post #2 of 50
12/14/10 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo View Post

I have a VT25, which I love and is going in the living room.

However, I recently found a like-new PRO-101FD (for the entertainment room), which I went ahead and bought. I was waiting for next year's Panny, but I went ahead and bought the Kuro now. I hooked up the Kuro tonight...

I have a Blu-Ray player with twin-HDMI (two HDMI out slots), so I figured why not hook them both up to the same Blu-Ray player in the same room, turn off all the lights and see if I could tell the difference.

I was expecting them to both basically be the same except better blacks on the PRO-101FD. I was wrong.

The difference is totally staggering!!

First off, when they are both in the same (pitch-black) room, the blacks on the VT25 look totally grey. Like, grey. If I turn the Kuro off, the blacks on the VT25 look black again, but with them both running the VT25 can't compete. Especially the black bars on 2.40:1 movies...I can't even tell where the bezel begins/ends on the Kuro!

Secondly is the skin tones. There's a big difference. With them both in the same room, the people on the VT25 look they have orange spray-on-tans. It's quite noticeable with the PRO-101FD running. Skin tones are much more realistic on the Kuro.

Finally, and it's hard to describe...the colors on the Kuro look more realistic. When comparing them both, it's like the VT25's colors are "doctored up" or something.

In other words, WOW!

You need to calibrate both sets or at least use D Nice settings on both sets to get a reasonable baseline. I've seen skin tones look very accurate on the VT25's so if you've got a red push it leads me to believe there's a problem with the settings.
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post #3 of 50
12/14/10 at 7:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

You need to calibrate both sets or at least use D Nice settings on both sets to get a reasonable baseline. I've seen skin tones look very accurate on the VT25's so if you've got a red push it leads me to believe there's a problem with the settings.

I used the Spears & Munsil Blu-Ray on both sets...
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post #4 of 50
12/14/10 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo View Post

I used the Spears & Munsil Blu-Ray on both sets...

Interesting findings!

Take some pics for us and post them up.
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post #5 of 50
12/14/10 at 8:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6SpeedTA95 View Post

Interesting findings!

Take some pics for us and post them up.

I've actually got a thread dedicated to taking pics of both running side-by-side, on another forum.

I will try to get some good pics tomorrow. I was gonna do it tonight but I'm too tired.
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post #6 of 50
12/14/10 at 9:05pm
Great, another Kuro brag/worship thread. We all know that Kuro, especially the 101 in terms of black level, is the plasma holy grail. Stop beating over the head those of us who aren't fortunate enough to own one.
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post #7 of 50
12/14/10 at 9:27pm
well its never to late to join the kuro club. i've got a brand new krp500m i'm willin to part with for the right offer.
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post #8 of 50
12/14/10 at 9:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by punchwalk View Post

Great, another Kuro brag/worship thread. We all know that Kuro, especially the 101 in terms of black level, is the plasma holy grail. Stop beating over the head those of us who aren't fortunate enough to own one.

Try ebay. If you want one


http://cgi.ebay.com/Pioneer-Kuro-PRO...16#ht_152wt_87
http://cgi.ebay.com/Gently-Used-Pion...#ht_1521wt_936
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post #9 of 50
12/14/10 at 9:37pm
well it will be interesting to see the VT25 and Kuro ISF/THX calibrated to really tell the difference, but The Kuro is an amazing set but in my opinion for this side by side comparation to be fare i will definitely get both sets calibrate to them have a final conclusion.
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post #10 of 50
12/14/10 at 9:47pm
the Vt25 still wouldn't be a match for the Kuro after calibration. Not even close!
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post #11 of 50
12/14/10 at 9:53pm
This thread hasn't been done before.
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post #12 of 50
12/14/10 at 10:29pm
Im gonna agree with some of the guys in here. We know this is true. Please give it a rest. Some Kuro owners are becoming very snobby lately.
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post #13 of 50
12/14/10 at 11:09pm
Give it a rest? The OP JUST acquired one and thought he'd report on his subjective comparative findings. I don't think that was snobby, just revelatory for him and he couldn't keep it to himself.

Heck, all these newcomer 101FD owners are making this 111FD owner jealous.
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post #14 of 50
12/14/10 at 11:15pm
Agreed. I for one would like to see what the difference between .004 and .0005 MLL looks like.
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post #15 of 50
12/14/10 at 11:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vybz67 View Post

the Vt25 still wouldn't be a match for the Kuro after calibration. Not even close!

How do you know that?
in order to know that answer you will have to calibrate both sets and do a few testing, we know Kuro is going to win, but you dont know the full capacity of the VT25 yet, so it will be a really nice thing to see, at least for me!
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post #16 of 50
12/15/10 at 12:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Give it a rest? The OP JUST acquired one and thought he'd report on his subjective comparative findings. I don't think that was snobby, just revelatory for him and he couldn't keep it to himself.

I agree. I enjoy reading posts that express this kind of excitement, regardless of what product/manufacturer is involved.
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post #17 of 50
12/15/10 at 1:28am
Thread Starter 
Guys, I wasn't trying to be snobbish or arrogant, etc...

Sorry if it came across that way.

I was just reporting what a visible difference it is to have both sets hooked up to the same Blu-Ray player in an identical room.

For the record, I still love my VT25. Going in living room.
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post #18 of 50
12/15/10 at 2:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo View Post
Guys, I wasn't trying to be snobbish or arrogant, etc...

Sorry if it came across that way.

I was just reporting what a visible difference it is to have both sets hooked up to the same Blu-Ray player in an identical room.

For the record, I still love my VT25. Going in living room.
If the comparison is not done double-blind then it is meaningless. If you don't understand why, I suggest a good experimental psychology textbook or a class at a local college.
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post #19 of 50
12/15/10 at 3:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo View Post
Guys, I wasn't trying to be snobbish or arrogant, etc...

Sorry if it came across that way.

I was just reporting what a visible difference it is to have both sets hooked up to the same Blu-Ray player in an identical room.

For the record, I still love my VT25. Going in living room.
The problem is
1) You compared it with the best plasma that people can buy now NIB
2) You actually did a side by side test without using equipments... ie a layman test It is easy to argue numbers but kuro IMHO is more than just black. It is the processor and colors as well.

And as you are aware the eye is not good at absolutes and can only see contrast. So when u place them side by side you can see the diff. So leave your plasmas separate and enjoy them as they are
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post #20 of 50
12/15/10 at 3:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Star56 View Post
If the comparison is not done double-blind then it is meaningless. If you don't understand why, I suggest a good experimental psychology textbook or a class at a local college.
I agree that double blind testing is useful to be truly objective (especially in the case of audio testing), but perception of visual differences should be less subject to placebo, I'd think.

BTW, armed redoubt? Planning for the end of the world (or dollar)? I can't blame you, wish I wasn't stuck in suburbia.
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post #21 of 50
12/15/10 at 6:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo View Post
Guys, I wasn't trying to be snobbish or arrogant, etc...

Sorry if it came across that way.

I was just reporting what a visible difference it is to have both sets hooked up to the same Blu-Ray player in an identical room.

For the record, I still love my VT25. Going in living room.
Sorry to come down hard on you mate. I just feel like it's become so well-known that Kuro Elite is the top-dog that it just doesn't need to be said anymore.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing post-calibration side-by-side photos.
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post #22 of 50
12/15/10 at 12:23pm
LETS SEE THE PICS!!! I'm not convinced the Kuro is that much better...
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post #23 of 50
12/15/10 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by calvin35 View Post
Agreed. I for one would like to see what the difference between .004 and .0005 MLL looks like.
Neither one is truly black in a dark room. (My 6020 Kuro glows more than I would like...and has a slight reddish tinge to black as well when viewed in a dark room...not quite so grand as the fanboys would have you think..lol) But the Kuro is closer to true black than the Panny. Maybe OLED will one day fix this issue totally! Would be awesome to have a set look like it is turned off when it shows black!
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post #24 of 50
12/15/10 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo View Post

I have a VT25, which I love and is going in the living room.

However, I recently found a like-new PRO-101FD (for the entertainment room), which I went ahead and bought. I was waiting for next year's Panny, but I went ahead and bought the Kuro now. I hooked up the Kuro tonight...

I have a Blu-Ray player with twin-HDMI (two HDMI out slots), so I figured why not hook them both up to the same Blu-Ray player in the same room, turn off all the lights and see if I could tell the difference.

I was expecting them to both basically be the same except better blacks on the PRO-101FD. I was wrong.

The difference is totally staggering!!

First off, when they are both in the same (pitch-black) room, the blacks on the VT25 look totally grey. Like, grey. If I turn the Kuro off, the blacks on the VT25 look black again, but with them both running the VT25 can't compete. Especially the black bars on 2.40:1 movies...I can't even tell where the bezel begins/ends on the Kuro!

Secondly is the skin tones. There's a big difference. With them both in the same room, the people on the VT25 look they have orange spray-on-tans. It's quite noticeable with the PRO-101FD running. Skin tones are much more realistic on the Kuro.

Finally, and it's hard to describe...the colors on the Kuro look more realistic. When comparing them both, it's like the VT25's colors are "doctored up" or something.

In other words, WOW!

What A/V modes did you use?

I run a calibrated 6020 and a new uncalibrated VT25 in the same room. Kuro has a clear qualitative advantage to my eyes when looking for an accurate image colors, shadow detail and awesome black level. In other words if I use my calibrated Movie Mode on the Kuro vs. the THX mode on the VT25.

The interesting thing to me is that I find the VT25 to have a good "LCD" type, bright and vibrant image if I choose those type of settings. Out of the box, Kuro can do a decent image in it's non-calibrated modes but skin tones look pretty bad compared to it's more accurate modes. Conversely I find the uncalibrated VT25 out of the box mind you, to be less offensive in it's alternate, high temp alternative modes.

For the record if you use the double gray-scale calibration method on the Kuro (or even swap boards and do the E-lite thing to get even more flexible adjustments) you can get some very good alternate AV mode results.

Just an early observation. I don't take good pics so that would have to be someone else.
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post #25 of 50
12/15/10 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

and has a slight reddish tinge to black as well when viewed in a dark room...not quite so grand as the fanboys would have you think..lol)

Obviously, that's not a defect shared by every owner, which you seem to be insinuating.
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post #26 of 50
12/15/10 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanBuck View Post

Neither one is truly black in a dark room. (My 6020 Kuro glows more than I would like...and has a slight reddish tinge to black as well when viewed in a dark room...not quite so grand as the fanboys would have you think..lol) But the Kuro is closer to true black than the Panny. Maybe OLED will one day fix this issue totally! Would be awesome to have a set look like it is turned off when it shows black!

A 6020 will not match a 101 or 500M, different technologies went into these sets specifically to give deeper blacks and block light at the edge of the screen, namely the single crystal MgO layer that is only in the 101 and 500M. See Kuro Technolgy Explained thread if interested in the details. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19588931

I can't even imagine what a great product Pioneer would have produced if still making pdps. They were superlative at pushing the envelope, while panny and sammy seem satisfied to make very minor improvements from year to year. Panny still has not fixed floating blacks or rising blacks, while sammys have mediocre blacks and frequently have buzzing issues. Maybe next year they will beat or match the 101/500M, but I doubt it.
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post #27 of 50
12/15/10 at 3:18pm
TwoPlusTwo, you have not even seen how much better the 101 can get when calibrated by an ISF expert such as D-Nice or the other excellent calibrators floating around here. Admittedly, the VT can also be significantly improved by a good calibration, especially in the accurate color area. But the VT simply cannot match the greatness of the 101. Side-by-side, the VT has no chance. These comparisons have already been done, ask d-Nice which is better.
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post #28 of 50
12/15/10 at 3:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonesy11 View Post

A 6020 will not match a 101 or 500M, different technologies went into these sets specifically to give deeper blacks and block light at the edge of the screen, namely the MgO cystal layer that is only in the 101 and 500M. See Kuro Technolgy Explained thread if interested in the details.

True,True.......I have both a 101 and 151 Pioneers,both calibrated.
The 101 is so very nice in dark ,not that the 151 is bad.

Mark
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post #29 of 50
12/15/10 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwknuf6 View Post

not that the 151 is bad.
Mark

You are correct, the 141/151/600M/111 all produce excellent blacks around .001, and are only bested by the 101/500M. The .001 is still superb, and apparently the difference can be hard to notice if not side-by-side.
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post #30 of 50
12/15/10 at 3:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoPlusTwo View Post

I have a VT25, which I love and is going in the living room.

However, I recently found a like-new PRO-101FD (for the entertainment room), which I went ahead and bought. I was waiting for next year's Panny, but I went ahead and bought the Kuro now. I hooked up the Kuro tonight...

I have a Blu-Ray player with twin-HDMI (two HDMI out slots), so I figured why not hook them both up to the same Blu-Ray player in the same room, turn off all the lights and see if I could tell the difference.

I was expecting them to both basically be the same except better blacks on the PRO-101FD. I was wrong.

The difference is totally staggering!!

First off, when they are both in the same (pitch-black) room, the blacks on the VT25 look totally grey. Like, grey. If I turn the Kuro off, the blacks on the VT25 look black again, but with them both running the VT25 can't compete. Especially the black bars on 2.40:1 movies...I can't even tell where the bezel begins/ends on the Kuro!

Secondly is the skin tones. There's a big difference. With them both in the same room, the people on the VT25 look they have orange spray-on-tans. It's quite noticeable with the PRO-101FD running. Skin tones are much more realistic on the Kuro.

Finally, and it's hard to describe...the colors on the Kuro look more realistic. When comparing them both, it's like the VT25's colors are "doctored up" or something.

In other words, WOW!

Add to that, VT25 has crappy processing compared to Kuro especially when displaying a 24p signal in 96 Hz. In that respect, it is horrendous. Panny uses cheap processing in their high end TVs and until that changes I will stay away from Panasonic.
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