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The Ins and Outs of HDMI Cables and Electronics

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
The Ins and Outs of HDMI Cables and Electronics
Author: Joe Perfito, Tributaries Cable


What impact does HDMI 1.4 have on cables?

There were no changes from v1.3 to v1.4 in the requirements for bandwidth (340MHz) or data-rate (10.2Gbps).

The HDMI v1.4 specification has 3 new features related to cables. The first is the new HDMI Ethernet Channel (HEC) technology which provides a means to link an HDMI cable to multiple network devices that can then share one internet connection. This requires an HDMI cable that has one extra shielded, twisted-pair of conductors. The Second is the addition of a new micro HDMI connector that will be used for connecting to mobile devices. Lastly there is a new type-E locking connector specifically designed for automotive installations.

Read the complete article at HomeToys.com
post #2 of 18
This article makes it sound like an HDMI 1.3 compatible receiver is completely capable of supporting 3D because it can support the data rate that is necessary. That isn't true, is it? Is there something else with last year's HDMI 1.3 receivers that would make them not capable of supporting 3D?
post #3 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by boozcruz33 View Post

This article makes it sound like an HDMI 1.3 compatible receiver is completely capable of supporting 3D because it can support the data rate that is necessary. That isn't true, is it? Is there something else with last year's HDMI 1.3 receivers that would make them not capable of supporting 3D?

That doesn't change the cable, just the AVR requirements (I believe).

Mike
post #4 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by boozcruz33 View Post

This article makes it sound like an HDMI 1.3 compatible receiver is completely capable of supporting 3D because it can support the data rate that is necessary. That isn't true, is it? Is there something else with last year's HDMI 1.3 receivers that would make them not capable of supporting 3D?

The cable is the same, but the AVR has to support it. I imagine support could be enabled with a simple firmware update, but the AVR company would rather you buy the latest model.
post #5 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by spivonious View Post

The cable is the same, but the AVR has to support it. I imagine support could be enabled with a simple firmware update, but the AVR company would rather you buy the latest model.

I had been thinking the same thing and then I noticed a couple of days ago (been a while since I updated) my PS3 says the latest update makes it 3d capable.

I know I still need to have an avr that supports it as well as a 3d capable display but it seemed impressive that such a feature was offered on a player I bought 3(?) years ago when I have about 3 other players in the closet because the manufacturer would not even provide updates to fix the known problems.
post #6 of 18
The article does, but I seriously do NOT recommend dual-CatX extenders.. WAAAY too many problems with powerline spikes (air conditioner/dish washer/washing machine/ceiling fan turning on/off, etc). I went through a months-long battle fighting dual-catX adapter dropouts. Replaced it with a single-CatX extender and couldn't be happier. Supports 12bit deep color too....

cheers,
..dane
post #7 of 18
The HDMI 1.4 is for audio return channel so that if the kids are asleep you can just listen to the tv speakers
post #8 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4492011 View Post

The HDMI 1.4 is for audio return channel so that if the kids are asleep you can just listen to the tv speakers

Huh?

ARC allows the audio FROM the TV to be sent to your receiver so that it can be played on the receiver's speakers. That is, it allows the TV to be the SOURCE of audio, without having to run a separate cable back to the receiver. As well, it supports ALL audio formats supported over HDMI, which an audio cable (even digital) doesn't.

How would this be used? If you are viewing an on-air channel using the TV's own tuner, or perhaps with an Internet-enabled TV. I use it with the Internet features of my Samsung plasma. While some of the services (i.e Pandora) are redundant, and exist on both the Samsung and Denon receiver, some are unique to the Samsung.
post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiodane View Post

The article does, but I seriously do NOT recommend dual-CatX extenders.. WAAAY too many problems with powerline spikes (air conditioner/dish washer/washing machine/ceiling fan turning on/off, etc). I went through a months-long battle fighting dual-catX adapter dropouts. Replaced it with a single-CatX extender and couldn't be happier. Supports 12bit deep color too....

Can you tell me which single-catX extender you recommend? And does it support 1.4? I recall reading about one that does support 1.4 recently, but I think there was little/no real availability. (Like it was available for a while and then supply dried-up for some reason.)
post #10 of 18
I like to connect audio from tv. Otherwise your Av reciever has to have the delay function to deal with the lag that most TVs have. And TV manuals don't "advertise" the lag time. You rely someone smart here at the forums measure and post the lag time so you can set the reciever. For example my panasonic projector is over 100ms behind.
post #11 of 18
I think it is interesting how they present the measurements for "standard speed" and "high speed" cables.

Quote:


Simply put: Standard Speed designates cables that are tested and certified to pass a minimum of 720p or 1080i HDMI signal (74.5 MHz bandwidth and 2.25Gbps data rate). High Speed designates a cable that is tested and certified to pass an HDMI signal up to 1440p (340MHz and 10.2Gbps data rate).

They list the "standard speed" cables having a minimum requirement and the "high speed" have a maximum limit? So basically there is a good chance a "standard speed" cable could very easily transfer the same amount of data as a "high speed" cable. I'm guessing without the "high speed" cost though.
post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtara View Post

Can you tell me which single-catX extender you recommend? And does it support 1.4? I recall reading about one that does support 1.4 recently, but I think there was little/no real availability. (Like it was available for a while and then supply dried-up for some reason.)

See this AVS Thread...

HDMI over Cat5e Problems (Video blanks when fan/light/motor turns on/off)

I would like more people to post with extenders they have used (both good and bad).. the thread isn't an absolute reference guide (yet)... but it's a good start...

Quote:
Originally Posted by deewan View Post

I think it is interesting how they present the measurements for "standard speed" and "high speed" cables.

They list the "standard speed" cables having a minimum requirement and the "high speed" have a maximum limit? So basically there is a good chance a "standard speed" cable could very easily transfer the same amount of data as a "high speed" cable. I'm guessing without the "high speed" cost though.

Indeed. standard speed cables may very well work just fine in your installation. Certainly short 'standard speed' cables usually work just fine with 1080p60 signals. It's kind of like buying any product for a purpose other than it was advertised for though-- may do the job JUST FINE. But it's not guaranteed. Longer runs, however, I'd use cables rated for the job.

cheers,
..dane
post #13 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by deewan View Post

I think it is interesting how they present the measurements for "standard speed" and "high speed" cables.

They list the "standard speed" cables having a minimum requirement and the "high speed" have a maximum limit? So basically there is a good chance a "standard speed" cable could very easily transfer the same amount of data as a "high speed" cable. I'm guessing without the "high speed" cost though.

The writer just wanted to avoid repetition. Both terms mean the same thing - you're mis-interpreting. Either standard or high-speed cable certainly "may" pass signals faster than they are designed for. This is generally true for any kind of speed-rated cable. They also "may" work at distances greater than those specified.

The only thing in common use today that requires a high-speed cable is 3D. 3D content sent from a BluRay player requires twice the bandwidth as 1080p. (Cable boxes typically offer watered-down 3D, with either half resolution (split-screen formats) or only 1080i.
post #14 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtara View Post
The writer just wanted to avoid repetition. Both terms mean the same thing - you're mis-interpreting. Either standard or high-speed cable certainly "may" pass signals faster than they are designed for. This is generally true for any kind of speed-rated cable. They also "may" work at distances greater than those specified.
If I say I can get my car up to 150 mph, it doesn't mean I can't also drive it 5 mph. It means my max is 150. If I say interstate has a minimum travel speed of 40 mph, that doesn't mean I can't go faster. It means I shouldn't go slower. So then why state a minimum for a standard speed and a max for a high speed?

I would think a better way to communicate the difference is to state a standard cable will pass through a minimum of 74.5 MHz bandwidth and 2.25Gbps data rate and the high speed a minimum of 90* MHz bandwidth and 3*Gbsp data. Then I would know if I was going to pass through 91 Mhz and 3.1Gbps, I wouldn't be gambling with the high speed cable. The standard cable may work, but maybe not.

*numbers made up, not based on any research
post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by deewan View Post

So basically there is a good chance a "standard speed" cable could very easily transfer the same amount of data as a "high speed" cable.

You seem to imply that there is a conspiracy afoot, and I don't believe this is so. Two things: first, the speed rating only matters with long cable lengths. A 30 or 50 foot "high speed" HDMI cable will be more expensive to construct than the same length of a "standard speed" HDMI cable. If 12 feet were the longest HDMI cable anybody ever wanted, these speed categories probably wouldn't exist.

Second, many HDMI cables support up to 165 MHz (this was the original HDMI requirement). I looked at Monoprice.com, and saw that many of their long cables listed as certified at 165 MHz, which is enough for Blu-ray with standard (not deep) color. But the HDMI people had to draw a line somewhere, so they picked 75 and 340 MHz. Monoprice's 165 MHz cables are "standard speed" as far as HDMI is concerned, but they definitely may work perfectly well for you.
post #16 of 18
So, from my many years as a design consultant on both video and audio studios, are there actually two different speeds of copper ??
post #17 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdprince
So, from my many years as a design consultant on both video and audio studios, are there actually two different speeds of copper ??
Well, there ARE slightly different speeds of copper. Look up "velocity factor". But, of course, that's not what is in play here.

The differences between different speed cables involve wire gauge, impedance characteristics (influenced by such as dielectrics, twist, etc.) and crosstalk. Dunno about HDMI but for example starting with CAT6 each pair has a slightly different twist to minimize crosstalk.

All of these thing affect the cable's ability to pass a high-speed signal without distorting it beyond recognition.

It's not different speeds of copper. It's how the cable is constructed.
post #18 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdprince View Post

So, from my many years as a design consultant on both video and audio studios, are there actually two different speeds of copper ??

Signal attenuation and noise increase with distance. Cable construction must compensate for these problems by increasing wire thickness and shielding with distance, which increases cost. And the cost to build a 30 meter cable that can maintain signal integrity with a 75 MHz signal is lower than the cost of a 30 meter cable that can maintain integrity of a 340 MHz signal.
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