or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Results Tomorrow
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Results Tomorrow - Page 5

post #121 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

I'm sure getting products to customers is important but that just sounds like BS. I would have to question the capabilities and longevity of a company that talks like it's living from paycheck to paycheck.

You call it living paycheck to paycheck, they call it serving the people that keep them in business.

I used to work for eD and from the time HT subs were introduced there, there's almost always been some sort of backlog due to popularity, you can tell by looking in the eD thread here on AVS. There is a difference between living paycheck to paycheck and doing as much as possible in house without outsourcing.

I believe the one sub they do have in stock right now would exceed the limitations on the test anyway. And I'd be willing to bet anyone waiting for a different sub wouldn't want a free one going out before they had theirs in hand.

Now, I don't know if there was any conversation between Gene and eD with regard to this test, but that's just an example of serving your customers, the people that keep you in business.
post #122 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post

It's too bad that none of the subs in this test are sold in the E-store.

It doesn't matter. He has made up his mind that it's all rigged and that's all there is to it.
post #123 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post

This is just my observation, not an opinion. Do with the information what you please.

If you did a bit of research you'd learn that this was all covered in this forum the last time that somebody questioned the honesty of reviews and the relationship with the e-store. Why are you beating a long dead horse?

As was said before the e-store was licensed because there were member requests for a convenient one click place to buy products. I'll assume that's why the "recommended systems" were recommended but since I have nothing to do with either the site or the store that's just an assumption.

I'll let you get back to beating that long long long dead horse.
post #124 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post

Come on Gene, get to posting, the natives are getting restless.

The understatement of the decade. I would also add to the restless, useless as well. I've read Gene got the stomach flu, hope he gets better soon and post the results, before this thread gets locked.
post #125 of 797
At this rate I think that the actual reviews of the four subwoofers will be posted before the info on how the tests and measurements were taken are posted.
post #126 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

I like how you say you are not implying audioholics reviews are dishonest but then in the very same sentence you imply audioholics reviews are dishonest. Perhaps you should look up the word "imply".

LOL, yep, the inclusion of the "but" negates the former.
post #127 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

good grief!!! how are ANY of those subwoofers listed consider "ultimate" in ANY way??? Give me a break. There are so many other subs available that would destroy those listed and make them cry in their soup. Here's a more likely list of "ultimate" subwoofers

CS 18.2
eD A7-450 & up
Seaton subs
Epik subs

Perhaps you should read the whole thread at Audioholics. eD and Epik are waiting to submit newer models in the next shootout. CS and Seaton didn't meet the criteria being used for selection.
post #128 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post

I agree, for the most part. But that fine line between what is "best" and "best value" are very subjective. One sub could beat another, but it might cost $500 more. If the Klipsch sub cost more than Brand X the final result might be "Clearly the Klipsch is the Ultimate Sub". If it was reversed the final result might be "Brand X sub won all the performance categories, but for the $500 you could pocket by getting the Klipsch sub, you'd be better off using that to buy [fill in blank]."

Then we get into the more ambiguous areas like does it matter if one sub can go to 5 hz while another can only go to 10 hz, but the 10 hz sub just sounded tighter and more refined.

IMO, there are too many variables for a fair review when you factor in the web site is selling some of the brands in the test. Considering they rec'd Yamaha receivers for nearly all their rec'd systems, I find it hard to believe the separation between the store and the reviews. But I'm skeptical by nature.

--SimpleTheater

PS: Chu - if Schifter was holding this event and published the protocol, I'd imagine you'd want a representative from each company present to observe the results.

The Boulder County Jail does not permit Shifty to leave the premises unless he's working earning a paycheck.
post #129 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Schempp View Post

You call it living paycheck to paycheck, they call it serving the people that keep them in business.

I used to work for eD and from the time HT subs were introduced there, there's almost always been some sort of backlog due to popularity, you can tell by looking in the eD thread here on AVS. There is a difference between living paycheck to paycheck and doing as much as possible in house without outsourcing.

I believe the one sub they do have in stock right now would exceed the limitations on the test anyway. And I'd be willing to bet anyone waiting for a different sub wouldn't want a free one going out before they had theirs in hand.

Now, I don't know if there was any conversation between Gene and eD with regard to this test, but that's just an example of serving your customers, the people that keep you in business.

There's no reason they can't farm some of the work out domestically to increase productivity or maybe expand internally to meet demand. What do they do when a customer has a problem? Wait for the next shipment of amps or drivers to arrive?
post #130 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

There's no reason they can't farm some of the work out domestically to increase productivity or maybe expand internally to meet demand. What do they do when a customer has a problem? Wait for the next shipment of amps or drivers to arrive?

I would hazard a guess that they aren't going to farm out their cabinet production any time soon with how very proud we/they were/are of being able to design, cut, build, paint, and finish the boxes in house.

Although I guess they'll be in the next one so that's always good to hear. I read through page 15 or 16 of that thread on Audioholics and stopped.

It just irritates me a bit when people start calling a company cowardly if they want to serve their customers; eD was just an example that I have intimate experience with. Consumers that dislike companies that are trying to get products in the hands of consumers and then get hated on by consumers...weird world we live in.
post #131 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post

That is funny. Cylindrical sub thingy, he has done so much more in the last 20 years. His designs and work has benefited many company's since, not even including his own successful HSU.

Yes, I'm sure that he has but for many people who don't spend half of their lives on A/V forums, that may be what he is most notable for.

Quote:


PS. My ports and driver are still in place.

And so are mine

Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I think you need to go back to your Lava thread.

See you over there.
post #132 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Schempp View Post

I would hazard a guess that they aren't going to farm out their cabinet production any time soon with how very proud we/they were/are of being able to design, cut, build, paint, and finish the boxes in house.

Although I guess they'll be in the next one so that's always good to hear. I read through page 15 or 16 of that thread on Audioholics and stopped.

It just irritates me a bit when people start calling a company cowardly if they want to serve their customers; eD was just an example that I have intimate experience with. Consumers that dislike companies that are trying to get products in the hands of consumers and then get hated on by consumers...weird world we live in.

I don't hate them. Based on what you've said, they seem inefficient as they can't meet demand.
post #133 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

Yes, I'm sure that he has but for many people who don't spend half of their lives on A/V forums, that may be what he is most notable for.

If someone was truly interested in purchasing a good sub, he/she would easily find much more information than you seem to think.

Quote:


See you over there.

Absolutely. That thread is very interesting. It is a good study on what consumers perceive as good and why.
post #134 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Schempp View Post

It just irritates me a bit when people start calling a company cowardly if they want to serve their customers; eD was just an example that I have intimate experience with. Consumers that dislike companies that are trying to get products in the hands of consumers and then get hated on by consumers...weird world we live in.

Is production that slow? One or two subwoofers out to a testers/reviewers would make huge impact on consumers?

Some companies actually have a stable of demo product just for test/review purposes. These products get shipped to many different places, and can come back pretty well banged up, so it smart to use the same one over again.
post #135 of 797
When you make as broad a line of products, and also offer custom options to your customers, you're going to have a different business model than a company like say HSU or SVS who makes 3-5 different subs and generally has 1-2 finishes available for said subs.

Just because you feel that them not keeping a ton of every sub in stock is a bad business model does not make it a bad or invalid business model. They're obviously doing quite well as they've done nothing but expand their business since they opened their doors.

The reality is eD represents a value thats hard to beat, they make quality subs, with excellent performance, and are generally 10-25% cheaper than competing subs. The caveat? you may have to wait 3-5 weeks for your sub to get delivered.

Some people are willing to wait, when i bought my A2-300 i was on a budget and wanted to get the absolute most sub for my money, that was the A2-300 and i havent regretted that decision once. The only thing i regret is not saving up and buying "more" sub like an A5-350. But, hindsight is always 20/20.
post #136 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post
When you make as broad a line of products, and also offer custom options to your customers, you're going to have a different business model than a company like say HSU or SVS who makes 3-5 different subs and generally has 1-2 finishes available for said subs.

Just because you feel that them not keeping a ton of every sub in stock is a bad business model does not make it a bad or invalid business model. They're obviously doing quite well as they've done nothing but expand their business since they opened their doors.

The reality is eD represents a value thats hard to beat, they make quality subs, with excellent performance, and are generally 10-25% cheaper than competing subs. The caveat? you may have to wait 3-5 weeks for your sub to get delivered.

Some people are willing to wait, when i bought my A2-300 i was on a budget and wanted to get the absolute most sub for my money, that was the A2-300 and i havent regretted that decision once. The only thing i regret is not saving up and buying "more" sub like an A5-350. But, hindsight is always 20/20.
HSU makes 7 different subs and 5 speakers and that doesnt count the products they make for other companies like Outlaw. SVS has even more with a bunch of sealed products on the way and the drivers they make are some of the best on earth.
I do agree that ED makes some great subs just dont like exaggerations used to make a point because they render that point invalid.
post #137 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio0947 View Post
HSU makes 7 different subs and 5 speakers and that doesnt count the products they make for other companies like Outlaw. SVS has even more with a bunch of sealed products on the way and the drivers they make are some of the best on earth.
I do agree that ED makes some great subs just dont like exaggerations used to make a point because they render that point invalid.
you consider 7 down to 5 an exaggeration? Sorry i forgot about the SVS cylinder subs, and the recently released new HSU sub, i guess i should cast myself into the abyss now. Lets not forget the SVS cylinder subs use the exact same amps and drivers as the box versions, so they're not really all new subs anyways from a manufacturing/stock perspective.

eD has 13 subs that they offer, covering the range from the mid 300's to 2k+.

They also offer 4 different veneers on top of their normal finish and now offer a gloss finish on the subs. They will also make custom subs for you. SVS and HSU wouldnt do that.

So no, the point is not rendered invalid, even by a stretch of the imagination.
post #138 of 797
But why not have a couple of subs(the most popular) on hand for demo/review purposes?

Also, how many different amps and drivers does eD use?
post #139 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnatalli View Post
Perhaps you should read the whole thread at Audioholics. eD and Epik are waiting to submit newer models in the next shootout.
There's no reason Epik couldn't have submitted an Empire, IMO. From all accounts it's an excellent sub and had been released in the same timeframe as the other subs in the shootout (minus the VTF-15h).
post #140 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post
Also, how many different amps and drivers does eD use?
From their site, they appear to use at least 4 different amps, and around 9 or more different drivers.

What's the point of all the bickering? There are a lot of solid subwoofer choices and companies available today.

So, four upper-mid-end subs are going to be tested and reviewed by Audioholics... well, cool. I look forward to reading it. Would it affect my purchase habits? Probably not. And, there are many reasons why companies might not participate... including coming to the conclusion that submission wasn't worth their time. Can't fault them for that.
post #141 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post


There's no reason Epik couldn't have submitted an Empire, IMO. From all accounts it's an excellent sub and had been released in the same timeframe as the other subs in the shootout (minus the VTF-15h).

I too would have loved to see the empire in the mix, but alas not this time around
post #142 of 797
post #143 of 797
I can see why eD might have passed on this test since they have already submitted and had reviewed by Audioholics several of their subs including the A7S-450, A7-450 etc.
post #144 of 797
Help me out here... the test parameters state "The products in this comparison were chosen based on a box size of 6 cubic feet or less, and a maximum retail cost of $2000."

Then, when reading the specs of the subs, the Hsu 15H is listed at 6.77 ft^3. So, why was it included, when it doesn't satisfy both test constraints? Apparently "close-enough" was determined - but, then, why have constraints if you're not going to follow them?

FWIW, a box-size constraint of "6 ft^3 or less" is, these days, relatively small IMHO. A 24" cube is already 8 ft^3... which isn't a monstrous subwoofer cabinet...
post #145 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Schempp View Post

It just irritates me a bit when people start calling a company cowardly if they want to serve their customers; eD was just an example that I have intimate experience with.

It's classic elementary school debating tactics and sadly it doesn't end for many as they get older. How many times have you read a letter to the editor that says "I dare you to print this." These people have no idea that their arguments are weak and don't hold merit.
post #146 of 797
I really liked how he said that some of the subs considered were not submitted due to them being so mediocre that the manufacturers were afraid to have them tested. I'd sure like to see proof of that in their letters refusing to participate. I think the writer is really taking a leap here to make that blanket statement.

I like Audioholics reviews...I find them very detailed and informative, but...some of the "opinion" is just way off base and without merit implying things that may not be true.

To say that the manufacturers refused to participate because they KNEW their products to be mediocre seems a stretch..unless he can prove that somehow. There could be many reasons they did not participate (as already discussed). I also find it interesting that some subs were included that do not meet their own set of guidlines for the shoot out.

The more I read this, the more I think they just took any 4 subs they could get for this shootout..and it looks more and more like they could ONLY get 4 subs to use.
post #147 of 797
"For a certainty there were excellent, fair and mediocre products. Some were so mediocre in fact, they withdrew from the competition. When viewed in that light, keep in mind those left here, are here because they were the best of the batch."

only 4 great sub manufacturers to choose from if I'm wanting to spend $1,000-2,000 on a box under 7 cubic ft.. well that makes it easy for a lot of buyers.
post #148 of 797
A total of four subs certainly seems not quite "ultimate", but on the other hand I don't see anybody else stepping up to do any scientific comparisons of multiple subs, so it's better than nothing.
post #149 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

A total of four subs certainly seems not quite "ultimate", but on the other hand I don't see anybody else stepping up to do any scientific comparisons of multiple subs, so it's better than nothing.

well it's interesting but...hardly a fair and complete "shootout" of subs in the $1000-$2000.00 range...not to mention they are making claims about manufacturers that they could never back up or offer evidence to. I hardly think that eD, Epik, CS, Seaton, Danley, JTR, Paradigm, REL, etc are not in the competition due to being so mediocre that they refused to submit.

I think what really happened is most of the manufacturers said they WOULD participate IF the testers either bought the sub, or at least paid for shipping back and forth. Sounds much more likely that audioholics just refused and so they were left with whichever subs they could get for free to test.

FunkyWaves looks like they are just using off the shelf drivers like the TC etc and building fancy looking boxes. I'm curious to see how those subs fair. I'd also be curious to know just which 2000 watt amplifier they are using. The majority of their subs look to be using off the shelf BASH amps 500watts...

Looking at some of their speakers, it sure looks like they are using an Aurum Cantus 4" ribbon tweeter in this speaker doesn't it? not sure who's driver that is...
post #150 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by senorfrog97 View Post

"For a certainty there were excellent, fair and mediocre products. Some were so mediocre in fact, they withdrew from the competition. When viewed in that light, keep in mind those left here, are here because they were the best of the batch."

only 4 great sub manufacturers to choose from if I'm wanting to spend $1,000-2,000 on a box under 7 cubic ft.. well that makes it easy for a lot of buyers.

thank goodness we have these reviewers to save us from all those "mediocre" subs out there
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Results Tomorrow