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Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Results Tomorrow - Page 8

post #211 of 797
Any status on this review? Isn't it like a week overdue????
post #212 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvictorg View Post

Elemental Designs didn't have any product ready to submit. Not surprising. Everything they sell has to come over in a big container from China, so even they don't know when stuff is going to be in stock.

As the guys below mentioned, we do not built our subwoofers in China, the opposite actually, not only our subwoofers, but full range products are built here. Yes some parts come from over seas, be that Asia or Europe. Our engineering is done in house, and many of our raw speakers feature our own toolings. Setting them apart from other speakers.

We have a full service wood shop with CNC machine, and paint booth.

We take pride in our US built cabinets, with eco friendly wood, paint, and veneer techniques.

We even use water based stains on our veneer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by a/v HD fan View Post

The comment on Elemental Designs struck me as odd as well... they're quite proud of designing, cutting, assembling, building, etc., everything in Iowa. Sure, drivers and/or amps might be made overseas, but from what I gather everything else is "homegrown." Plus, they've recently been keeping certain popular models in-stock and ready to ship. Hard to reconcile that with "everything gets shipped by container from China" - go figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnatalli View Post

FYI, eD subs are made in Iowa, they don't come over in containers from China.

You guys are 100% correct.

Due to increased production, even with the holiday season in full swing, we have models in stock and shipping same day.
post #213 of 797
The results of the shootout are starting to be posted. the first review and test is the SVS PB12 Plus. The review is very strong. It appears thet the CEA SPL numbers will easily match those of the HSU VTF-15H.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...fers/pb12-plus

Very disappointing, however, is that it was not really tested in other tuning modes other than 20hz.
post #214 of 797
So if we put the PB13 CEA2010 up against it (adjusting for the RMS, 2m)

We get PB12 vs PB13

20Hz 114.4 vs 117.5
25Hz 117 vs 121.4
32Hz 119 vs 124.8
40Hz 121.4 vs 125.9
50Hz 122.8 vs 124.8
63Hz 122.8 vs 123.7

I honestly do not get this comment

Quote:


It's no wonder this mighty sub was the recipient of the Audioholics coveted 2010 Product of the Year award in the subwoofer category. Highly recommended!

How can the PB12 Plus be a 2010 product period?? The PB13 ruled the SVS world. Its just another reason I think those sites are not worth it any more. "Coveted", Really?

I also wonder what Illka measured when he measured the PB12-plus.
post #215 of 797
Either way, the PB12 is pretty beastly, though. Those are impressive numbers for a 12 inch driver.
post #216 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

The results of the shootout are starting to be posted. the first review and test is the SVS PB12 Plus. The review is very strong. It appears thet the CEA SPL numbers will easily match those of the HSU VTF-15H.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...fers/pb12-plus

Very disappointing, however, is that it was not really tested in other tuning modes other than 20hz.

Nice review. Really makes me want to upgrade mine to the Sledge amp.
post #217 of 797
nevermind
post #218 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Im' not sure what "statement" you are asking me to back up....other than my initial one saying that these subs are hardly the "ultimate" in subwoofers. I then went on to compare the A5-350 with the 15" Rythmic and stated that they were virtually the same sub except the the Rythmic will cost you around $400-$500.00 more.

Lol. That's hilarious.

First of all - it's not the ultimate subwoofer shootout anymore. It was when they were planning it but they specifically decided to limit it to 5 cu ft and under $3000 and those are the subs those companies decided to submit. It's still a subwoofer shootout. It's all about economics for a business. You think SVS hasn't probably designed a PB21U or something? Sure they may have. But it's all about sales and just "the most ultimate sub possible" wouldn't be practical.

Second, there's more to subwoofers than driver size and amplifier output.

-Distortion
-compression
-excursion
-transient response

etc. This idea you're throwing around is ridiculous. Anyone looking for sound quality may not even consider an elemental designs sub but would jump at a rythmik sub. Why is that? Is it hype? Or perhaps there's reasoning behind that.

Have you heard or measured both the rythmik or the elemental designs? Of course you haven't. You're taking a spec sheet - in effect generalizing the role of a subwoofer - and making assumptions.
post #219 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post




How can the PB12 Plus be a 2010 product period?? The PB13 ruled the SVS world. Its just another reason I think those sites are not worth it any more. "Coveted", Really?

.

I agree, tho, from maybe a value standpoint, the PB12 is an excellent bang for your buck...after all, the PB13 is more.
post #220 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

It appears thet the CEA SPL numbers will easily match those of the HSU VTF-15H.

.

Iam not so sure the VTF will even match those #'s...Sure wish they would do the VTF...still the VTF is substantially less expensive.
post #221 of 797
Those PB12 #'s look very close to HSU's claimed #'s.

"123-125dB max clean CEA2010 peak output capability from 40-100Hz, 121dB @ 31.5Hz, 118dB @ 25Hz, 114dB @ 20Hz"
post #222 of 797
The numbers on the PB12 are indeed sick, but if it's a "value-king" what on earth will they label the VTF at 60% of the cost?!

James
post #223 of 797
The Audioholics measurements were done the same way @ 1m.
post #224 of 797
I saw that Mike...me bad, I just deleted the message after looking @ it again.
post #225 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Those PB12 #'s look very close to HSU's claimed #'s.

"123-125dB max clean CEA2010 peak output capability from 40-100Hz, 121dB @ 31.5Hz, 118dB @ 25Hz, 114dB @ 20Hz"

The VTF-15H new posted numbers per HSU are 40-80hz@124-125db, 122db@31.5hz, 119@25hz,114db@20hz.
post #226 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

The VTF-15H new posted numbers per HSU are 40-80hz@124-125db, 122db@31.5hz, 119@25hz,114db@20hz.

Any idea why they changed?
post #227 of 797
Thats pretty impressive for a 12" thats a tad smaller than the VTF-15.
post #228 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

How can the PB12 Plus be a 2010 product period?? The PB13 ruled the SVS world. Its just another reason I think those sites are not worth it any more. "Coveted", Really?

I making an assumption here that the PB12+ is the only SVS sub that AH evaluated. That said, I wonder if, since it's the POY award winner, it's the overall winner of the shootout. That award article was posted on 12/15, but I don't recall any other SVS review during the year. Anyway, I liked the reviewer's methodolgy and comments. Not because this one was about SVS, but what he had to say about engineering, amp power and sub design.
post #229 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

So if we put the PB13 CEA2010 up against it (adjusting for the RMS, 2m)

We get PB12 vs PB13

20Hz 114.4 vs 117.5
25Hz 117 vs 121.4
32Hz 119 vs 124.8
40Hz 121.4 vs 125.9
50Hz 122.8 vs 124.8
63Hz 122.8 vs 123.7

I honestly do not get this comment



How can the PB12 Plus be a 2010 product period?? The PB13 ruled the SVS world. Its just another reason I think those sites are not worth it any more. "Coveted", Really?

I also wonder what Illka measured when he measured the PB12-plus.

Those numbers are right along what Ed mentioned way back when (that the PB12 plus would be only a few db behind the PB13).

As for Illka, I believe the PB12-Plus didn't come out until late 2008 or even 2009. Illka did not measure it.
post #230 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

I making an assumption here that the PB12+ is the only SVS sub that AH evaluated. That said, I wonder if, since it's the POY award winner, it's the overall winner of the shootout. That award article was posted on 12/15, but I don't recall any other SVS review during the year. Anyway, I liked the reviewer's methodolgy and comments. Not because this one was about SVS, but what he had to say about engineering, amp power and sub design.

Yes, this was the case. Actually, I think either Ed or someone posted somewhere in that huge Audioholics thread the reason SVS sent in the PB12-Plus vs the PB13 was simply because the PB13's numbers were already posted by Illka (so anyone could already compare them), and so they wanted to provide a different product to AH and they were quite confident it would do well. Looks like it did...
post #231 of 797
Until I see the test results for the VTF-15, and the others, I will reserve final judgement. But since Sound&Vision magazine had a six 12 inch driver subwoofer shootout in the September 2009 issue, and the PB-12 + (no SLEDGE amp), easily outgunned all the others at 20 Hz. Indoors Brent Butterworth measured 114.8 db at 20 Hz.

None of the others could come close to this level of performance.

Competition included $1,800 Axiom EP600 v2; $1,895 Bag End PD12E-1; $2,800 J L Audio F112; $2,149 PSB SubSeries 500; $1,899 Velodyne Optimum 12.

Just to repeat, the PB-12 Plus (either version) is a 20 Hz gorilla.

But to put things in perspective, a (20 hz tuned) Captivator even with a Behringer should do significantly better.

To understand the upcoming comparisons with the VTF-15 H, its controls have to be set for maximum output from 20Hz on up. Sealed mode and 16 Hz tune will just confuse the matter, as could the Q adjustment.
post #232 of 797
Enjoyed reading the review. One pet peeve is I wish Audioholics would allow the reader to print or view the entire article at once...without having to page through it.
post #233 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

....numbers were already posted by Illka (so anyone could already compare them)....

I think it should be noted that I don't believe Illka used Keele's software when doing his measurements.

Although there's are other variables with microphones and what not, Keele's software pretty much automates the CEA2010 measurements...no need for a judgement, interpretation, measurement, or calculation from a human.
post #234 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post
Just to repeat, the PB-12 Plus (either version) is a 20 Hz gorilla.

But to put things in perspective, a (20 hz tuned) Captivator even with a Behringer should do significantly better.
Trust me, if a Captivator and a PB12 were operating in the same room and someone accidentally kicked out the cord on the PB12, one might not even notice the difference.
post #235 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post
I think it should be noted that I don't believe Illka used Keele's software when doing his measurements.

Although there's are other variables with microphones and what not, Keele's software pretty much automates the CEA2010 measurements...no need for a judgement, interpretation, measurement, or calculation from a human.
True. Though I do recall reading somewhere that SVS claimed the PB12-Plus would be a "few db" shy of the PB13 in terms of performance across the range and it seems to be fairly close. Though this was when they both had BASH amp platforms.

It's too bad AH didn't bother testing the sub in 16hz and sealed mode to provide the same figures in the various modes. Wonder if it wasn't a relatively simple thing to do. Oh well.
post #236 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post
True. Though I do recall reading somewhere that SVS claimed the PB12-Plus would be a "few db" shy of the PB13 in terms of performance across the range and it seems to be fairly close. Though this was when they both had BASH amp platforms.

It's too bad AH didn't bother testing the sub in 16hz and sealed mode to provide the same figures in the various modes. Wonder if it wasn't a relatively simple thing to do. Oh well.
If they only tested the PB12 in 20hz I am sure that the HSU will be tested the same way. Too bad....
post #237 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepen View Post
If they only tested the PB12 in 20hz I am sure that the HSU will be tested the same way. Too bad....
That certainly does seem like a missed opportunity. While it may not technically be part of the CEA testing, it certainly would be of interest to potential buyers. It makes no sense to me.

Ilkka, please come back!
post #238 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Any idea why they changed?

The original numbers were from a pre-production model. The new numbers are from the current production model.

Daniel
post #239 of 797
It appears the reviewer will test the subs with minimal settings, filters, and EQ. That's fine as long as he's consistent. The readers will have to make their own assumptions as to how adjusting settings or tuning will impact the output. I believe there will only be two adjustable tuning subs in the reviews.

I didn't see any mention of the elevated noise floor that Ed uses to explain the hissing noise some have heard. Maybe it's just the Ultra that suffers from this.

Anybody know who's up next and when?
post #240 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Any idea why they changed?

It was first a prototype when they submitted the numbers.
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