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Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Results Tomorrow - Page 2

post #31 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

good grief!!! how are ANY of those subwoofers listed consider "ultimate" in ANY way???

If you read the thread you'll see that it started out to be a biggest and baddest shootout but a lack of interest, different approaches to building subwoofers, and old fashioned fear of failure by the vendors changed the lineup. If manufacturers refuse to provide products there isn't much that can be done. What wound up in the test is what the manufacturers were willing to provide,

My original concern was differing approaches to ultimate bass. Some manufacturers rely on a single beast of a dual driver vented box. Others rely on multiples of dual drivers sealed boxes. And then there is everything in between. There really isn't any mutually acceptable way to compare (for example) an dual 18" vented sub with three dual driver 15" sealed subs that add up to the same price point. As much as I'd like to see a shootout between an A7-900, a JTR Captivator and two pair of Epik Empires it's just not practical.
post #32 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Well..anything is possible, but I'd sure like to see some graphs and numbers to back up that claim. Care to offer any proof? You dont' have to do the testing yourself, just post the proof you seem to have.

I would expect the HSU to be much boomier since it's ported, but have a lot less slam and total clean output of the A7S 450 since you are comparing completely different beasts here.

It is my opinion and my experience with both....sorry no data right now to back up what I like and what I feel in my room.
post #33 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Im' not sure what "statement" you are asking me to back up....other than my initial one saying that these subs are hardly the "ultimate" in subwoofers. I then went on to compare the A5-350 with the 15" Rythmic and stated that they were virtually the same sub except the the Rythmic will cost you around $400-$500.00 more.

You compared them physically? In the same spot in the same room with the same test material?
post #34 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, to be fair I am sure the HSU is great but Cacihome needs to tell people he is a HSU dealer or was which can make his opinions biased.

1. I receive no money for what I do in the forums...it's kind of voluntary word of mouth, based on my experience as an enthusiast...

2. I never have hidden any info.

3. My opinion is not biased. The best sealed sub I have heard, irrespective of price, is the Fathom F113. So far ported, it is the VTF-15H.
post #35 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Well. These are the specs on the HSU 15" and I have to say I find it VERY hard to believe that a 350watt rms amp and a 15" driver could come anywhere near out performing an 18" driver with 1300watts of power behind it. And btw...we are comparing a sealed to ported sub so I know that makes a big difference. You'd really have to compare it to an 18" ported eD with 1300watts amp. or get eD to make you an A3-550 15" ported WITH a 1300 watt amp.


also, you need to note that the HSU sub is $879.99 PLUS $139.99 shipping. So it's really $1019.98

Product At a Glance
Amplifier Power 1400 W short term, 350 W continuous
Hybrid Tuning 16 Hz Ported, 22 Hz Ported or Sealed
Q Control Range 0.3 - 0.7
Woofer 15 Inch
Crossover 30 - 90 Hz, Bypassable
Crossover Slope 24 dB/Oct
Phase 0/180
Total Power Outlet Requirement 430 W, 120/240V
Ship Weight 123 lbs
Dimensions 25.0"(h) x 18.0"(w) x 26.0"(d) excluding feet/grille

Buy both as I have...and then comment.
post #36 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

1. I receive no money for what I do in the forums...it's kind of voluntary word of mouth, based on my experience as an enthusiast...

2. I never have hidden any info.

3. My opinion is not biased. The best sealed sub I have heard, irrespective of price, is the Fathom F113. So far ported, it is the VTF-15H.

1. Are you still a dealer?

2. I never said you did.

3. I understand liking something so much that you get involved with the company, I did it with Ada. What happens is that now when I say I like Ada people will think I am just trying to sell product(although you can't sell online) but the truth is I never sold Ada as a business, just my used gear.

If you are affiliated with HSU then that makes you biased in some way, it is just the nature of things. I don't disagree what you may think about HSU but the things you said about the eD sub was in your room because I never experienced what you did in my room. My eD's went into the single digits where you always say that the eD can not go deep(not true).
post #37 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

What happened to the LAVA LSP 12? I thought it had been added to the subs being tested.

Is someone else testing the LAVA LSP 12 for publication?

The Lava sub is going to be a separate review from the shootout.
post #38 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Im' not sure what "statement" you are asking me to back up....other than my initial one saying that these subs are hardly the "ultimate" in subwoofers. I then went on to compare the A5-350 with the 15" Rythmic and stated that they were virtually the same sub except the the Rythmic will cost you around $400-$500.00 more.

Your quote
-------------------------------------------
"good grief!!! how are ANY of those subwoofers listed consider "ultimate" in ANY way??? Give me a break. There are so many other subs available that would destroy those listed and make them cry in their soup. Here's a more likely list of "ultimate" subwoofers

CS 18.2
eD A7-450 & up
Seaton subs
Epik subs
etc....seriously...what a joke. They should call this the ultimate basic subwoofer shootout. I'm not saying the subs listed are not good, but...their price points are all higher than they should be, their performance is definitely much less than can be had for the same money from other competitors.

Just as an example, compare the Rythmic 15" sub listed to the Elemental Designs A5-350. Similar specs, but the eD is $400.00 cheaper and that INCLUDES shipping. Similar specs, so obviously a much better deal"

------------------------------------------------------
End your quote.

Now prove to us that the subs you mentioned will "destroy" the Subs being tested. That's such a blanket statement but you're not offering any proof other than what the individual manufacture claims. You're seemly trying to fan some flames here. I suspect they all are decent subs.

You likely have a good bit more knowledge than I do and that's fine. Now that you have made your statement show me the destruction.
I haven't owned many Subs so I can't compare. I can say that I like my HSU 15H and i'm not so ignorant as to understand that it may not be the be-all-end-all of subs.

Destroy in what way? db lvls? deepness? overhang? fit and finish? wattage?
I'm more than happy to read why you think X sub is better than Y sub but using manufacture claims isn't it.
Lol even sub makers can't always agree on the testing methods.

Jim
post #39 of 797
As Sholling pointed out the intent and design of the shootout has changed since it was first announced due to many factors. Still, it should be an informative and talked about comparison for some time.
post #40 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

1. Are you still a dealer?

2. I never said you did.

3. I understand liking something so much that you get involved with the company, I did it with Ada. What happens is that now when I say I like Ada people will think I am just trying to sell product(although you can't sell online) but the truth is I never sold Ada as a business, just my used gear.

If you are affiliated with HSU then that makes you biased in some way, it is just the nature of things. I don't disagree what you may think about HSU but the things you said about the eD sub was in your room because I never experienced what you did in my room. My eD's went into the single digits where you always say that the eD can not go deep(not true).

1. Well...I think not. Have not sold a sub for a while. I am more of a friend to the people who work there. It has never been a business per se. More of like a help-help friend situation...I pay for my subs, just as everyone else.

2.Ok.
3.OK.
post #41 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post

As Sholling pointed out the intent and design of the shootout has changed since it was first announced due to many factors. Still, it should be an informative and talked about comparison for some time.

Most of these subs are close in price so it should be interesting. Of course there are many other subs but we have to make due with what they have, no? If not happy anyone can buy some subs and test them out in their own room, that is the point of ID companies.
post #42 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt34 View Post

As Sholling pointed out the intent and design of the shootout has changed since it was first announced due to many factors. Still, it should be an informative and talked about comparison for some time.

The PB12-Plus winning the POY (Audioholics) in subs has got me confused. It is $1349 vs the $879 for the HSU, and yet it wins? It will be interesting to see what differentiated it from the HSU, and for that matter the others. It is gonna be a long two weeks.
post #43 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

1. Well...I think not. Have not sold a sub for a while. I am more of a friend to the people who work there. It has never been a business per se. More of like a help-help friend situation...I pay for my subs, just as everyone else.

2.Ok.
3.OK.

Cool! We as a group need to understand that subs will sound different in different rooms too. I have no doubt that the HSU subs are great and will please most people. I have said for a long time once you reach a certain level of great bass many subs are a lateral move with slight differences one needs to decide if it is worth it or not. Many subs are great and whether one is better than the other will depend on the listener and room. I can tell you I have a friend who has heard all my bass setups. My pro horn subs, DIY eD ported subs, sealed eD subs, Danley DTS-10's, CS 18.2's, dual Klipsch THX ultra 2's, dual SVS 16-46cs+, and my single SVS PB/plus 2. He has always liked the SVS plus 2 better than all the rest. I don't know why he just does. I had the SVS nearfield so it could hit 120 db's during WOTW otherwise it would not have enough power to compete. I thought the SVS was the worst but go figure, it just shows everyone is different.
post #44 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepen View Post

The PB12-Plus winning the POY (Audioholics) in subs has got me confused. It is $1349 vs the $879 for the HSU, and yet it wins? It will be interesting to see what differentiated it from the HSU, and for that matter the others. It is gonna be a long two weeks.

It won that honor before the comparison article.
post #45 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Cool! We as a group need to understand that subs will sound different in different rooms too. I have no doubt that the HSU subs are great and will please most people. I have said for a long time once you reach a certain level of great bass many subs are a lateral move with slight differences one needs to decide if it is worth it or not. Many subs are great and whether one is better than the other will depend on the listener and room. I can tell you I have a friend who has heard all my bass setups. My pro horn subs, DIY eD ported subs, sealed eD subs, Danley DTS-10's, CS 18.2's, dual Klipsch THX ultra 2's, dual SVS 16-46cs+, and my single SVS PB/plus 2. He has always liked the SVS plus 2 better than all the rest. I don't know why he just does. I had the SVS nearfield so it could hit 120 db's during WOTW otherwise it would not have enough power to compete. I thought the SVS was the worst but go figure, it just shows everyone is different.

However, it is a fact that the A7s-450 rolls off too high without external EQ. So it was true what I said. It starts to roll off at 35hz or so...(a little higher actually)

That was what I meant.
post #46 of 797
Sound & Vision magazine did a 6 sub shootout in the September 2009 issue.

6 subs ranging from $1,149 to $2,800, and varying in size greatly from the JL Audio F112 to the Axiom EP600 v 2.

The SVS PB-12 Plus just killed all the other subs in VLF output, especially at 20 Hz where it put out 114.8 db (indoors). The giant Axiom could manage 113.5 db at 28 Hz and the limit of 10% THD. It also managed 90.5 db at 18 hz, which is almost useless.

This was before the PB-12 Plus got the new 800 watt Sledge amp. The tested model had the original 525 watt BASH amp.

So, the PB-12 Plus more than held its own against 5 much more expensive subs. Now it is a different group and the SVS is not the least expensive. If there are some surprises from less expensive subs that will be just fine. Bang for the buck is of interest to most buyers.
post #47 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

However, it is a fact that the A7s-450 rolls off too high without external EQ. So it was true what I said. It starts to roll off at 35hz or so...(a little higher actually)

That was what I meant.

Many sealed subs rolloff higher, they all need some EQ to get flat to 20hz. Look at Ikka's graph of the LMS 5400 sealed sub, it rolls off well before 20hz . In a room is a different matter. The HSU ULS-15 already has internal EQ from its amp so of course it will go lower without any tweaking. Like I said diffrerent rooms will give different results. My room had my eD's flat to 5hz without EQ but I don't expect everyone to get the same results. Thank goodness there are so many subs for so many different rooms.
post #48 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

It won that honor before the comparison article.

Didn't know that, thanks for the info.
post #49 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

1. Well...I think not. Have not sold a sub for a while. I am more of a friend to the people who work there. It has never been a business per se. More of like a help-help friend situation...I pay for my subs, just as everyone else.

2.Ok.
3.OK.

Oops, I guess I should have waited for confirmation. Sorry for jumping to any conclusions and thanks for clarification.
post #50 of 797
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz(wake me up when the real shootout begins)
post #51 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hksvr4 View Post

Why is the SVS PB12 on the list at all?

Because the PB13 was already put through a full battery of tests by both Illka and IIRC Audioholics or maybe some UK site I'm forgetting, and SVS said their numbers more or less were spot on with those two sites. So they said rather than put the PB13 back through similar tests for the masses, they'd rather put the PB12-Plus through its paces, and their SB-13 or SB-16 was not yet developed.
post #52 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Just as an example, compare the Rythmic 15" sub listed to the Elemental Designs A5-350. Similar specs, but the eD is $400.00 cheaper and that INCLUDES shipping. Similar specs, so obviously a much better deal

I am glad you are here to state the obvious/tell us all how to read spec sheets. Obviously if you can read specifications then reviews are pointless and if subs have similar specs then we should consider them to be the same product.
post #53 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Cool! We as a group need to understand that subs will sound different in different rooms too. I have no doubt that the HSU subs are great and will please most people. I have said for a long time once you reach a certain level of great bass many subs are a lateral move with slight differences one needs to decide if it is worth it or not. Many subs are great and whether one is better than the other will depend on the listener and room. I can tell you I have a friend who has heard all my bass setups. My pro horn subs, DIY eD ported subs, sealed eD subs, Danley DTS-10's, CS 18.2's, dual Klipsch THX ultra 2's, dual SVS 16-46cs+, and my single SVS PB/plus 2. He has always liked the SVS plus 2 better than all the rest. I don't know why he just does. I had the SVS nearfield so it could hit 120 db's during WOTW otherwise it would not have enough power to compete. I thought the SVS was the worst but go figure, it just shows everyone is different.

Agreed. Actually, most people with smallish rooms probably aren't aware how much harder a ported sub is to get flat down low, especially those that are flat to a very low frequency (like the PB13). Until I recently ran a ton of REW sweeps when I was comparing my PB13 to my dual AV15H dual opposed subs I hadn't realized it as well.

Thankfully the "room compensation" control knob on the SVS works wonders (not sure if the new HSU has something similar but that is a great control for ported subs). With REW I could see how I had a rising in room response from 15hz to about 25hz due to the incredible room gain I have (sounds like you have even more gain in that monster SPL theater of yours! ), and had to engage the "Small" room setting to flatten the curve as much as possible in that range, and not use the 20hz ported setting as 15hz worked much better in my room. I had never really used the room compensation control before and simply relied on Audyssey to flatten the curve as much as possible but never really got around to truly measuring it. Sealed mode provided by far the flattest response at the expense of output I guess, which was also a reason for the dual sealed DIY build.
post #54 of 797
Thread Starter 
Update on the Audioholic forum... Wednesday will be the measurement protocol

"The measurement protocol will be published tomorrow, not the actual measurement results. Those should start coming in after the holidays as individual reviews of each product and then a shootout summary of results article."


http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...&postcount=433
post #55 of 797
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

good grief!!! how are ANY of those subwoofers listed consider "ultimate" in ANY way??? Give me a break. There are so many other subs available that would destroy those listed and make them cry in their soup. Here's a more likely list of "ultimate" subwoofers

CS 18.2
eD A7-450 & up
Seaton subs
Epik subs
etc....seriously...what a joke. They should call this the ultimate basic subwoofer shootout. I'm not saying the subs listed are not good, but...their price points are all higher than they should be, their performance is definitely much less than can be had for the same money from other competitors.

Just as an example, compare the Rythmic 15" sub listed to the Elemental Designs A5-350. Similar specs, but the eD is $400.00 cheaper and that INCLUDES shipping. Similar specs, so obviously a much better deal

I think you should go over to Audioholics and read about the shootout before making statements. There is a LOT of history behind this shootout. For example, Epik was asked to participate and declined to include a sub. Several companies dropped out because they were too scared to have their product professionally reviewed and compared to other competing products. Several other products were pulled because their product was defective and couldn't pass the tests (RBH for one).

We should all try to do business with the 4 companies (HSU, Rythmik, Funkywaves, and SVS) who are actually having their products reviewed versus each other. This means they believe in their product and they have the balls to stand behind it. A lot of audio "review" websites these days are really just paid to publish reviews that are more like press releases than objective reviews. To this, I say thank heavens for audioholics!
post #56 of 797
HSU, Rythmik, Funkywaves, and SVS

balls for real, respect
post #57 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

I think you should go over to Audioholics and read about the shootout before making statements.

A lot of audio "review" websites these days are really just paid to publish reviews that are more like press releases than objective reviews. To this, I say thank heavens for audioholics!

+1 on the post and thank you for pointing out that you need to read the thread at Audioholics. After reading said thread, I'm actually most bummed about the Salk sub having to drop out. I was interested in hearing about that one.
post #58 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post

Sound & Vision magazine did a 6 sub shootout in the September 2009 issue.

6 subs ranging from $1,149 to $2,800, and varying in size greatly from the JL Audio F112 to the Axiom EP600 v 2.

The SVS PB-12 Plus just killed all the other subs in VLF output, especially at 20 Hz where it put out 114.8 db (indoors). The giant Axiom could manage 113.5 db at 28 Hz and the limit of 10% THD. It also managed 90.5 db at 18 hz, which is almost useless.

This was before the PB-12 Plus got the new 800 watt Sledge amp. The tested model had the original 525 watt BASH amp.

So, the PB-12 Plus more than held its own against 5 much more expensive subs. Now it is a different group and the SVS is not the least expensive. If there are some surprises from less expensive subs that will be just fine. Bang for the buck is of interest to most buyers.

I have said before that it seems like sound and vision and their "shootouts" have been set up so there is no winner and they rarely announce one, almost like they don't want to upset advertisers or potential advertisers. They have had subs in the past that range from a few hundred to several thousand dollars and almost all have big differences in size, driver size, alignment, and amp power. Not saying they're not useful reviews, they are to a degree, but if I were a potential product buyer that had the means to buy any product in their shootouts I would put the magazine down after reading the article having felt I didn't gain proper advice or direction on which to buy. If I am a novice first time buyer I would like a professional or team of professionals to help point me in the right direction, and that rarely happens with them.
post #59 of 797
I love how this entire argument spawned because Pure Evil misread the title of the thread.

He read it as The Ultimate Subwoofer" shootout. When the intended meaning/reading was "The Ultimate" subwoofer shootout.

They never said any of the subs were the ultimate subs in the world, the point was to have a large number of subs to compare against each other.
post #60 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post

I love how this entire argument spawned because Pure Evil misread the title of the thread.

He read it as The Ultimate Subwoofer" shootout. When the intended meaning/reading was "The Ultimate" subwoofer shootout.

They never said any of the subs were the ultimate subs in the world, the point was to have a large number of subs to compare against each other.

I was going to make the same argument that the inflection was misplaced, but the original intent of the shootout was to have 5 or 6 ultimate subs, regardless of size or price. It was revised due to several conditions [OEM non-participation, issues with some subs, scheduled stand alone reviews] to the limited, smaller, mid priced contenders it is today.

Anyway, it needs to be retitled to 'Just Another Subwoofer Shootout with the Usual Suspects'.
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