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Audioholics Ultimate Subwoofer Shootout Results Tomorrow - Page 3

post #61 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrimnir View Post

I love how this entire argument spawned because Pure Evil misread the title of the thread.

He read it as The Ultimate Subwoofer" shootout. When the intended meaning/reading was "The Ultimate" subwoofer shootout.

They never said any of the subs were the ultimate subs in the world, the point was to have a large number of subs to compare against each other.

Ah if I misread then my fault. ;-)
post #62 of 797
I give props to:

-Rythmik
-SVS
-HSU
-Funkywaves

They all provide great value in subwoofers and they stand behind their products. It's because of companies like those we can enjoy great bass without having 3000$ + to spend on a sub.
post #63 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

I was going to make the same argument that the inflection was misplaced, but the original intent of the shootout was to have 5 or 6 ultimate subs, regardless of size or price. It was revised due to several conditions [OEM non-participation, issues with some subs, scheduled stand alone reviews] to the limited, smaller, mid priced contenders it is today.

Anyway, it needs to be retitled to 'Just Another Subwoofer Shootout with the Usual Suspects'.

Except it's the first time Funky Waves is involved, which is pretty cool ....
post #64 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

good grief!!! how are ANY of those subwoofers listed consider "ultimate" in ANY way??? Give me a break. There are so many other subs available that would destroy those listed and make them cry in their soup. Here's a more likely list of "ultimate" subwoofers

CS 18.2
eD A7-450 & up
Seaton subs
Epik subs
etc....seriously...what a joke.

Not to beat a dead horse, but many of the venders you mentioned declined to participate (excluding Craig... he's banned from the audioholics forums so he never had the option). Got ahead of yourself a bit.
post #65 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

Not to beat a dead horse, but many of the venders you mentioned declined to participate (excluding Craig... he's banned from the audioholics forums so he never had the option). Got ahead of yourself a bit.

Lol. Why exactly is Craig banned?
post #66 of 797
Just to clarify, According to Gene from AH he said Epik was not participating this time around because they were waiting on new product development and would next round.
post #67 of 797
If anything new has been posted on Audioholics about the shootout please post the link.
I do not see any mention of it anywhere.
post #68 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Many sealed subs rolloff higher, they all need some EQ to get flat to 20hz. Look at Ikka's graph of the LMS 5400 sealed sub, it rolls off well before 20hz . In a room is a different matter. The HSU ULS-15 already has internal EQ from its amp so of course it will go lower without any tweaking. Like I said diffrerent rooms will give different results. My room had my eD's flat to 5hz without EQ but I don't expect everyone to get the same results. Thank goodness there are so many subs for so many different rooms.

Really?

In my opinion, for commecial subs, it is not acceptable.

Please... A sealed sub that does not get to usable 20-16hz in room with 1300w amp and an 18" driver straight from the factory...Sorry to disagree here.
They should include the EQ.
post #69 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

Not to beat a dead horse, but many of the venders you mentioned declined to participate (excluding Craig... he's banned from the audioholics forums so he never had the option). Got ahead of yourself a bit.

One thing to note about Craig and his sub comparisons...he would buy the items outright, then test them.

How is AH conducting their test? Are they calling vendors and asking for a free sub and if they decline, they're being called cowards by some of you?
post #70 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by sholling View Post

If you read the thread you'll see that it started out to be a biggest and baddest shootout but a lack of interest, different approaches to building subwoofers, and old fashioned fear of failure by the vendors changed the lineup. If manufacturers refuse to provide products there isn't much that can be done.

Not like purchasing the product is an option, or requesting current owners lend them theirs. It's been done many times before.
post #71 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

Really?

In my opinion, for commecial subs, it is not acceptable.

Please... A sealed sub that does not get to usable 20-16hz in room with 1300w amp and an 18" driver straight from the factory...Sorry to disagree here.
They should include the EQ.

Again, it depends on room. I got 5 hz extension with mine so please don't post that it can't go low as a fact, it is dependent on many factors.
post #72 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Again, it depends on room. I got 5 hz extension with mine so please don't post that it can't go low as a fact, it is dependent on many factors.

5hz at usable SPL? Without any EQ? No Audyssey or YPAO? Sorry, I don't believe it...

I am talking about the sub. Not the room.

A good design on that price w/ those specs and size, should play well in most rooms, and there is a reason why ED recommends the external EQ on that one.

I have had lots of subs, and this one, per size, has had the least output @-below 20hz. It is so much more powerful at midbass/upperbass freqs, that you can hardly tell it is playing low freqs.
post #73 of 797
I had the opposite results, the most output below 20hz. The other subs have built in EQ so it won't drop off at 20hz. Natural sealed subs without EQ do drop off. Add an EQ to the eD and it would be fine. It should come with it? It still costs less for sub and EQ if you had to buy it. Actually a ported sub tune to 15hz or a sealed sub with built in EQ to say 16hz would be bad for me as I have room gain that would make the response peaky(10-15db's) at that tune. Again, this is why there are so many choices for subs, to match them with one's room.
post #74 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I had the opposite results, the most output below 20hz. The other subs have built in EQ so it won't drop off at 20hz. Natural sealed subs without EQ do drop off. Add an EQ to the eD and it would be fine. It should come with it? It still costs less for sub and EQ if you had to buy it. Actually a ported sub tune to 15hz or a sealed sub with built in EQ to say 16hz would be bad for me as I have room gain that would make the response peaky(10-15db's) at that tune. Again, this is why there are so many choices for subs, to match them with one's room.

MK,

I know this....Please.

It is rather obvious that the ULS has about 10-12db boost below 20hz...

For a commercial sealed sub this size, which is the only thing I said from the start, the ED sub rolls off too soon. Period.

If it worked in your room..GREAT! But in most rooms, you will need the EQ to boost the low end...

You continously talk about your room. But in this case, I was referring to the sub FR in particular.
post #75 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cacihome View Post

MK,

I know this....Please.

That is why I keep telling that it is unacceptable. It is rather obvious that the ULS has about 10-12db boost below 20hz...

Personally, I'd rather have a choice on the EQ (i.e., on/off, or a PEQ on the amp itself) or no EQ at all. A 10-12db boost below 20hz is massive if that is the case, and likely why the VTF in ported mode apparently has more mid-bass slam than a sealed sub. A boost of that much would cause an immense strain on the amp and driver, not to mention cause a rising response in smaller rooms that have ample room/boundary gain to begin with and you'd have Audyssey or other auto EQ's fighting with the internal EQ of the amp to tame that.

I believe that's why eD also has an outboard basic EQ device they can sell with their subs, for those using sealed subs in larger rooms who don't have the room/boundary gain.
post #76 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Personally, I'd rather have a choice on the EQ (i.e., on/off, or a PEQ on the amp itself) or no EQ at all. A 10-12db boost below 20hz is massive if that is the case, and likely why the VTF in ported mode apparently has more mid-bass slam than a sealed sub. A boost of that much would cause an immense strain on the amp and driver, not to mention cause a rising response in smaller rooms that have ample room/boundary gain to begin with and you'd have Audyssey or other auto EQ's fighting with the internal EQ of the amp to tame that.

I believe that's why eD also has an outboard basic EQ device they can sell with their subs, for those using sealed subs in larger rooms who don't have the room/boundary gain.


Thank you.
post #77 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbc View Post

Personally, I'd rather have a choice on the EQ (i.e., on/off, or a PEQ on the amp itself) or no EQ at all. A 10-12db boost below 20hz is massive if that is the case, and likely why the VTF in ported mode apparently has more mid-bass slam than a sealed sub. A boost of that much would cause an immense strain on the amp and driver, not to mention cause a rising response in smaller rooms that have ample room/boundary gain to begin with and you'd have Audyssey or other auto EQ's fighting with the internal EQ of the amp to tame that.

I believe that's why eD also has an outboard basic EQ device they can sell with their subs, for those using sealed subs in larger rooms who don't have the room/boundary gain.

It was an example, in terms of db amount. The reason for the VTF to have more upper/midbass output is simply because it is and has completely different goals/design compromises.

But I agree with you, and MK, to have the option of eq on/off,etc.

Audyssey boosts the low end too, in my room...
post #78 of 797
Remember though, the ULS-15 does have some adjustment for the low end boost/boundary gain with its ULF trim adjustment.
post #79 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

Remember though, the ULS-15 does have some adjustment for the low end boost/boundary gain with its ULF trim adjustment.

Yep. In my room for example, I used it where it gave me the most aggresive roll off.
post #80 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbmpharmacist View Post

I think you should go over to Audioholics and read about the shootout before making statements. There is a LOT of history behind this shootout. For example, Epik was asked to participate and declined to include a sub. Several companies dropped out because they were too scared to have their product professionally reviewed and compared to other competing products. Several other products were pulled because their product was defective and couldn't pass the tests (RBH for one).

We should all try to do business with the 4 companies (HSU, Rythmik, Funkywaves, and SVS) who are actually having their products reviewed versus each other. This means they believe in their product and they have the balls to stand behind it. A lot of audio "review" websites these days are really just paid to publish reviews that are more like press releases than objective reviews. To this, I say thank heavens for audioholics!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ransac View Post

I was going to make the same argument that the inflection was misplaced, but the original intent of the shootout was to have 5 or 6 ultimate subs, regardless of size or price. It was revised due to several conditions [OEM non-participation, issues with some subs, scheduled stand alone reviews] to the limited, smaller, mid priced contenders it is today.

Anyway, it needs to be retitled to 'Just Another Subwoofer Shootout with the Usual Suspects'.

ransac is correct here. There were also size/volume limitations later added as they had many questions from manufacturers about them putting subwoofers against each other where there was a 2-10 fold difference in size (example: SubMersive is too large for this grouping). They have also done a lot of arm waving about measurements, but this will be the first wider application of their testing approach. I know many were curious as to what exactly would be done and how it would be presented.
post #81 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Lol. Why exactly is Craig banned?

Info: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...postcount=2870 ... That's Audioholics side of the story anyways. Craig's version can be found on his forums.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Schempp View Post

How is AH conducting their test? Are they calling vendors and asking for a free sub and if they decline, they're being called cowards by some of you?

Manufactuers were asked to submit a sub (I assume on loan, but I could be mistaken) and many sub manufactuers declined. This includes Epik, Axiom and Paradigm.

Source for manufacturer's who declined testing: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ad.php?t=67724

Source of Audioholics Testing Standards (Groundplane): http://www.audioholics.com/news/edit...oofer-shootout
Additional links to testing measurements can be found on the bottom of the linked page.
post #82 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackOften View Post

Info: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...postcount=2870

Manufactuers were asked to submit a sub (I assume on loan, but I could be mistaken) and many sub manufactuers declined. This includes Epik, Axiom and Paradigm.

Source for manufacturer's who declined testing: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...ad.php?t=67724

Source of Audioholics Testing Standards (Groundplane): http://www.audioholics.com/news/edit...oofer-shootout
Additional links to testing measurements can be found on the bottom of the linked page.

Interesting. I've always wondered why AVS allows manufacturers/sellers to prop up their products on here like advertising...or have others do it for them. I'm not saying it happens often, but for example the non disclosure in this thread alone of an HSU rep pumping up the HSU 15" sub as the best thing since sliced bread and not revealing that he actually sells the product. Seems very dirty and underhanded to me.
post #83 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimpleTheater View Post

Not like purchasing the product is an option, or requesting current owners lend them theirs. It's been done many times before.

Go for it. Go ahead and buy $10k worth of subs and ship the to someone to do scientific tests. This isn't 2 guys in a basement with a case of beer. Once the tests are done what do you do with that 1000lbs of subs clear across the country from you? Who pays the legal bills for including a sub who's manufacturer does what it included?
post #84 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Interesting. I've always wondered why AVS allows manufacturers/sellers to prop up their products on here like advertising...or have others do it for them. I'm not saying it happens often, but for example the non disclosure in this thread alone of an HSU rep pumping up the HSU 15" sub as the best thing since sliced bread and not revealing that he actually sells the product. Seems very dirty and underhanded to me.


You are just trolling....
post #85 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

Interesting. I've always wondered why AVS allows manufacturers/sellers to prop up their products on here like advertising...or have others do it for them. I'm not saying it happens often, but for example the non disclosure in this thread alone of an HSU rep pumping up the HSU 15" sub as the best thing since sliced bread and not revealing that he actually sells the product. Seems very dirty and underhanded to me.

He stated that he does not sell product, just friends.
post #86 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by sholling View Post

Go for it. Go ahead and buy $10k worth of subs and ship the to someone to do scientific tests. This isn't 2 guys in a basement with a case of beer. Once the tests are done what do you do with that 1000lbs of subs clear across the country from you? Who pays the legal bills for including a sub who's manufacturer does what it included?

I have to say that if a company is not big enough or confident enough to allow their product to be tested and shipped back when done at the testers expense then I'd be hesitant to buy a product from them. It almost seems like there's something to hide doesn't it? In house testing by the manufacturer is nice, but a 3rd party unbiased test is much better and more believable.
post #87 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

I have to say that if a company is not big enough or confident enough to allow their product to be tested and shipped back when done at the testers expense then I'd be hesitant to buy a product from them. It almost seems like there's something to hide doesn't it? In house testing by the manufacturer is nice, but a 3rd party unbiased test is much better and more believable.

I totally agree with you and this so-called "Ultimate Shootout" is coming off more as a misfire with only 4 subs that the average consumer has probably never even heard of, with the exception of HSU who some will only remember as the "guy that had that cylindrical sub thingy", years ago.
post #88 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

I totally agree with you and this so-called "Ultimate Shootout" is coming off more as a misfire with only 4 subs that the average consumer has probably never even heard of, with the exception of HSU who some will only remember as the "guy that had that cylindrical sub thingy", years ago.

The other interesting thing about this shoot out is the inclusion of a Canadian company that I've never heard of just popping up? And it's not like their prices are low...so I'm suprised they are just appearing out of no where.
post #89 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

He stated that he does not sell product, just friends.

ah. my apologies then.
post #90 of 797
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pure-Evil View Post

ah. my apologies then.

Thanks, Ok.
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