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Average Joe Owner Sony VW90ES/JVC-40 Face Off - Page 3

post #61 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogone View Post
I'm going to reserve my final thoughts and comments until my final and somewhat lengthy, review. But, for now, for all concerned, I will say that if you are more interested in 2D quality and you've got the means to buy the Sony VW90ES...do it. The 2D picture quality (to my eyes) after days of calibrating (and viewing everything I could throw at it), is nothing less than phenominal...The picture is bright, punchy, (almost DLP like) Very good blacks...There is just something really special about the image quality...The JVC is no slouch..(I love it!) I love playing with all the settings and there seems to be so much more you can do with it in the way of calibration, but still...I just cannot reproduce that unique look that the Sony has. I've already said more than I wanted to, but the bottom line is...If I were rich and it wouldn't phase me to keep both of these, I'd use the JVC for 3D because of the brightness (not because it has a better image in 3D), and I'd use the Sony for 2D material...The Sony is just not very bright for 3D
Have you seen the RS50 or RS60? I am wo ndering how that would look in 2d compaired to the Sony. In other words, would 1 pj satisfy you like the 2 would. I have heard the 60 actually measured out to 100,000/1 cr.
post #62 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Something tells me they are a variation of yours. Pretty much a good combo of both of yours.
Do you have the oppo set to 1080p/24? I dont have a outboard video processer like you so should I leave it there?
post #63 of 559
Okay. My review.

It's taken me a while to get this review done as I wanted to get as much content under my belt as possible before posting a review. I try not to post anything right away as I would rather have the wow factor from owning a new toy get under control before I rave that it's the best thing ever since my last projector I've now clocked in over 50 hours so I think I have an accurate idea of what to expect.

2D

BEST 2D PICTURE I HAVE EVER SEEN Really. I know that everyone is super excited about 3D which I've been into for over the last year. So 3D is not new to me and I was equally excited about the 2D performance of the Sony.

Boy does this thing deliver. Blacks are amazingly black with the auto IRIS. WIthout the auto iris they still are satisfactory but I see no reason to disable the IRIS anyway as it produces NO VISIBLE pumping at all. I actually thought the IRIS wasn't working as I can usually see it pretty easily on the Epson projectors and a few DLPs that I owned, but I tried the ultimate stress test. The End credits revealed very minimal changes to the black level when the white credits fade in and out. This was the only time I saw the IRIS working. The blacks with the auto IRIS are slightly better then an RS25 I saw and without IRIS it's close to an RS15. Also, shadow detail is fantastic. I watched the Expendables and the entire intro is very dark with tons of detail that can be lost if shadow detail is weak.

Bright scenes are one of the strong points of the Sony and are about equal to the Benq W6000 i owned. The Sony has superior ANSI contrast to the JVC (more then double) and it shows it brighter scenes. The Sony really has that DLP "pop" then many other non DLP projectors don't usually have. There is no blooming or washout of blacks at all in mixed scenes. The Sony really does have the "wow" factor.

A HUGE advantage of the Sony over any other projectors I've owned and seen is the motion. Joerod was right. The motion on this thing is better then any Plasma or even DLP. Sony is using new high speed SXRD panels on the VW90 and wow this thing keeps all of it's resolution during motion. To keep the motion res you do need to engage Film projection mode 1 or 2. Mode 1 darkens the picture way to much, and mode 2 is fine but does produce a very slight flicker (only notice it on test patterns or computer use). The FI on the Sony is also amazing. It produces almost no artifacts at all even on high and is much, much better then the Epson I owned. I find FI great for any live action stuff like sports, concerts, nature docs, and animation. I have no seen even one motion related artifact on the Sony be it Red fringing, blurring, false contouring, etc. There are a few occasions that the FI stuttered but it's very rare and only happens for a micro second.

Sharpness is also exceptional. I have less then half a pixel misconvegence on any part of the screen and sharpness is even throughout the entire screen. Detail is amazing without any edge enhancement. Very smooth, detailed image that really seems to almost be beyond 1080p. Sony increased the fill factor from the Vw85, and even up close pixel structure is very hard to make out, and from normal viewing distance the image is SHARP but still film like. This may sound strange but seeing the PS3 menu screen on this projector made me smile. It just looked better then on any other display I've seen, be it my Panasonic plasma or previous projectors. The image is also clear of any type of noise, or moire that can be seen on other projectors.

3D

It's a mixed bag.

Brightness is low in 3D but acceptable to me on my 1.4 Carada BW 110" screen on medium setting. Im using the Sony glasses, but I have ordered a pair of Xpands that I will hopefully have soon. I can't wait to see how they compare.

Ghosting. Coming for the Acer (NO ghosting at all, Nada) the Sony definetely has some ghosting issues. It changes from scene to scene, and some movies it's far more noticeable then others. Also it seems that dark reds, browns, etc ghost a lot more then other colours (not sure why) Also, high brightness mode with the Sony glasses produces too much ghosting to be usefull, but medium is OK and low almost eliminates all ghosting. It can be distracting but when Im not looking for it, it doesn't really bother me anymore. I've watched over 6 full movies and it's overall not a deal breaker.

Colour is much better then the Acer and so is the contrast. The 3D pops even more in dark movies like Christmas Carol, and Polar Express. The image detail and sharpness is also much improved over the Acer (720p) and it really brings movies like Avatar to life when you can really see the texture, pores, veins, patterns on clothes, etc.

The Sony is Better for me in every way except for ghosting then the Acer. Yes a projector costing 20x less then the Sony can beat it, but only in 1 way. Some people may be more annoyed with ghosting then others, and it can be a deal breaker for some. The pros of the Sony far out way the the cons and I find myself more involved when watching a movie on the Sony. The Sony in bright mode is about the same brightness as the Acer, but since high mode is not very usable, the edge goes to the Acer for brightness, but that may change when I try the expand glasses.

Bottom line for 3D. It's OK, but there is room for improvement obviously. Ghosting is an issue and the brightness is not great but can be "fixed" with a high gain screen. I still wouldn't hesitate for an instant about recommending the Acer to someone. It's still the best money I ever spend on electronics in my life. If I couldn't afford a Sony or JVC and wanted 3D then the Acer would be an absolute treat, and it still does some things better.

Bottom line for 2D. Smooth, Superior motion handling, SHARP, NO noise or artfacts, great FI, great Blacks, Superior ANSI. Really no reason for DLP to exist anymore in the mid range market. Sony has fixed all the issues that LCOS had and I guess only a three chip DLP might be better. Sony has a winner!!!!!

This was my initial review but the ghosting kept bothering me more and more. It got to the point where I couldn't enjoy 3D on the Sony. It was Despicable Me that was the final nail in the coffin. That movie completely destroyed the Sony for 3D. Ghosting in almost every single scene.

Im hoping to get my X7 within a week and hope to post a full review soon after. I'm not confident that the JVC will beat the Sony for 2D, but from reading others opinions it seems that the JVC will be a step up in 3D performance from the Sony. I also wonder if the THX certification is going to make any difference whatsoever between the RS40 and 50 for 3D
post #64 of 559
Thread Starter 
Conan...The JVC is simply "brighter" in 3D...But, the image itself is not as sharp, and also the background in 3D is blurry compared to the Sony...I don't know what would make it be that way cause I am merely an "average Joe"...
The JVC has a more muddled or subdued look in 2D...Doesn't have that Pop or translucency...if you know what I mean.
post #65 of 559
dogone

Have you had a chance to run the motion tests that were sent to you by conan?
post #66 of 559
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Do you have the oppo set to 1080p/24? I dont have a outboard video processer like you so should I leave it there?

Yes.
post #67 of 559
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvectord View Post

dogone

Have you had a chance to run the motion tests that were sent to you by conan?

No...I just haven't had the time...I am trying to ram way too much in my life right now...I will do it though...if someone doesn't beat me to the punch...
post #68 of 559
Quote:


Conan...The JVC is simply "brighter" in 3D...But, the image itself is not as sharp, and also the background in 3D is blurry compared to the Sony...I don't know what would make it be that way cause I am merely an "average Joe"...
The JVC has a more muddled or subdued look in 2D...Doesn't have that Pop or translucency...if you know what I mean.

WOW. If even a fraction of that ends up being true for the RS50, then someone can buy it off of me on the classifieds for a nice discount after a few hours of use

Also just for comparisons sake......This is what Thrang posted comparing his VW90 to his RS50.

Quote:


3D Brightness:
1st: RS50
2nd: 90es

Here I was quite surprised. In Normal lamp mode, with the Iris clamped down -1 or -1, and 6500K color temperature, I felt I had an appreciably brighter 3D image than with the Sony, regardless of which glasses I used.

I will try to post a shot or two later through the glasses...


3D Sharpness:
1st: RS50
2nd: 90es

Much more detail with the 50, but of course, this relates to...


3D Ghosting Minimization:
1st: RS50
2nd: 90es

Sam is right - the RS50 is close to the Panasonic plasma. Almost no ghosting in the two IMAX titles (Grand Canyon/Under the Sea), much better front to back clarity. Really cannot tell you if the 90es convergence issue, (electronically fixed with panel alignment) would contribute to the classic crosstalk presentation, but I suspect there is something else at play resulting in difference in experience between the two projectors). I guess I could knock the RS50 out of alignment electronically and see if that causes a bloom of ghosting...

The only odd experience I feel, and I think this is less the projection of the image than how it is shot, is shallow depth of field - when foreground images are purposely out-of-focus: out-of-focus + 3D in general makes me feel awkward, like both my eyes are in the same head (insert jokes here).

Flicker Minimization:
1st: RS50
2nd: 90es

I would have thought the lower refresh on the JVC would make me sense the flicker more, but its not the case. I feel some fatigue with both, but less with the RS50, and less sense of flickering.

Both Petri and Thrang said that the front to back clarity was much better on the JVC vs the Sony for 3D. I found the Sony because it always had ghosting on the bottom third of the screen (also confirmed by Petri) would ruin the illusion of 3D because the foreground was always ghosted or blurry no mater what.

Im finding the 3D reviews and comparisons are actually making it harder to buy a projector then ever. Not sure if it's because of the viewer or his sensitivity to ghosting (or lack thereof) or the way the brain sees 3D. But, we are getting completely polar opposite opinions on the exact same projector(s).

I leaning more to the fact that 3D has to be experienced by every individual themselves and reviews cannot at all be used to form any type of conclusion regarding 3D performance. Unless, it involves numbers like brightness, and colour performance.

For me the 3D on the Sony was very poor after a weeks viewing. I tried every setting posted on the owners thread, and while some were slightly better then others, the 3D was never good enough. There would have been nothing better then for me then to keep the Sony.

The 2D is outta this world, and I would have loved to justify keeping it on it's 2D performance alone, but spending that much money for broken 3D just made me feel wrong.

Dogone, I really wish I could go to your place and see the 3D from the Sony. Unless my projector was totally defective (which it didn't appear to be) the 3D issues made it unwatchable during the week I had it.
post #69 of 559
BTW, I will be running the motion tests on the RS50. It will be one of the first things I test for. Many people are reporting the motion on the new JVC is much better then last years models. This better be the case as I am crazy sensitive to blur, fringing, Sample and Hold, etc. Either way, my dealer is selling me the unit he is supposed to put out as a demo for his theater. I can basically try the JVC for a week like the Sony and If I don't want it he just puts it in his demo theater. So, Im not obligated to keep the JVC, but damn I hate driving around buying and returning projectors because Im too anal with performance issues. Also, I feel kinda bad returning so much stuff to him and may just sell it anyway so I don't feel like such an ahole.

So here's hoping that the JVC works out, or I can always beg him to give me the Sony back

Can anyone else try Resident Evil with the Sony? Me and Petri both noticed all the subs at the begining of the movie had tons of ghosting, while the JVC had none at all. Also, I tried the Xpand glasses and all they do is move the ghosting from the bottom of the screen to the top. (I was excited at first because I though the ghosting was fixed, but it just moved to another part of the screen)
post #70 of 559
Conan... please don't paraphrase both thrang and petri in the same sentence.
post #71 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutlow View Post

Do you have the oppo set to 1080p/24? I dont have a outboard video processer like you so should I leave it there?

Yes. And I don't use the VP with Blu ray and 3D. I skip it and go straight to my VW90. Less stops equals best image. Having a Blu ray player with Dual HDMI outs allows this advantage.
post #72 of 559
I will have Resident Evil 3D here soon.
post #73 of 559
And I also have the same Imax titles and I see very minimal ghosting. Especially with Under The Sea. I feel like I'm in a huge salt water fish tank!
post #74 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

And I also have the same Imax titles and I see very minimal ghosting. Especially with Under The Sea. I feel like I'm in a huge salt water fish tank!

How about that Potato Cod Fish scene where it swims right out of the screen and then sits in front of you for a moment in Under The Sea?! I was at Sams place the other night and he put that on and I was amazed! Seemed like I could kiss it!

Nice comparison Chuck and thanks for all your reports
post #75 of 559
If you guys think that's nice, wait till you see it at 15 ft lamberts or so like Cineramax demoed it at Cedia with a Barco.
post #76 of 559
This was in the jvc x3 thread & I thought it applied here as well:

Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
This is simple:
When 3D is activated, the projector inserts longer dark times in the PWM of the D-ILA Pixels. This results in a brightness loss of 50% -> about 450 to 500 lumens

However, as a result, the glasses do not lose so much light anymore, just about 65%, because the open times of the shutters can be longer. So you end up with about 150-200 lumens.

Drawbacks: Much more picture noise because of the reduced PWM, less bit depth and 50% loss of native contrast.

The SXRDs work differently: Here they keep full brightness and contrast, but the glasses lose about 85% light. So you end up with about same brightness, but you do not have so much contrast loss as with D-ILA. And you do not have any noise at all.


I hope, this explains your questions...

Regards,
Ekkehart
post #77 of 559
So the Sony should provide the best 3D image?
post #78 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

If you guys think that's nice, wait till you see it at 15 ft lamberts or so like Cineramax demoed it at Cedia with a Barco.


I can only imagine Mark..........I bet that was awesome!
post #79 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by omicronian View Post
If anyone have seen 3D on the Sony "out of the box" and, like me, you were put off by the dim image, you REALLY have to see it with better settings.

Have you experienced any brightness difference with the X103 vs. Sony glasses? Or are they about the same?

Regards,
Ekkehart
post #80 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post
Have you experienced any brightness difference with the X103 vs. Sony glasses? Or are they about the same?

Regards,
Ekkehart
The image is better overall and brighter. My family and guests much preferred the Xpands. They also cause a lot less eye strain. I now have 7 pairs!!!
post #81 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post
The image is better overall and brighter. My family and guests much preferred the Xpands. They also cause a lot less eye strain. I now have 7 pairs!!!

This is really interesting. I will try to get some of these then for our final review...

Regards,
Ekkehart
post #82 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by omicronian View Post
Conan... please don't paraphrase both thrang and petri in the same sentence.
Good idea.

Not to mention you also don't have to mess with those crazy filters!
post #83 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

This is really interesting. I will try to get some of these then for our final review...
Regards,
Ekkehart

And when will that be Ekkehart? we are some who waits with excitement

In your preview, you said december and I have been waiting for 24 days now

Frohe Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr aus Dânemark

And for the others : Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

God jul og godt nytår ( for the people in my country who is on here...all 9 or so )
post #84 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cine4Home View Post

Have you experienced any brightness difference with the X103 vs. Sony glasses? Or are they about the same?

Regards,
Ekkehart

Yes they are a little brighter, and they have better optical quality. But they are only usable at "high" setting for now, they need a firmware update to support "mid" and "low". I documented my sony-vs-xpand tests for brightness and crosstalk here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post19661426
post #85 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by omicronian View Post

Yes they are a little brighter, and they have better optical quality. But they are only usable at "high" setting for now, they need a firmware update to support "mid" and "low". I documented my sony-vs-xpand tests for brightness and crosstalk here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post19661426

I'd still take them at High over the Sonys at any level. Oh wait I did.
post #86 of 559
Talking of glasses, how do you clean them?

They are made of very soft plastic. The more you wipe them with a cloth , even a super fine microfibre one, the chances are you drag a spec of dust with it and scratch them.....
post #87 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Talking of glasses, how do you clean them?

They are made of very soft plastic. The more you wipe them with a cloth , even a super fine microfibre one, the chances are you drag a spec of dust with it and scratch them.....

+1

What is the best way to clean these? I am a bit worried about scratching them when trying to clean.
post #88 of 559


Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

+1

What is the best way to clean these? I am a bit worried about scratching them when trying to clean.

I have used this Spudz (from Amazon) Microfiber Cloth with excellent results. I actually wipe my 3D glasses after each showing...
LL
post #89 of 559
What's the MSRP on the Sony 90 and, knowing what I paid for my RS40 (yet to arrive) approximately how much more expensive (%) would you figure the Sony is. I think it's way out of my price range, but I'm just curious how much. For instance, is the Sony 90 more $ than the RS50?
post #90 of 559
Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post





I have used this Spudz (from Amazon) Microfiber Cloth with excellent results. I actually wipe my 3D glasses after each showing...

Thanks Joerod. I assume you have had no issues with this cloth wiping both the inside and outside of the lenses? Stupid question I know, but just want to confirm
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