DAC Comparison - Page 13

Nah, I still don't think I'm on board ht. And I say this...in the friendliest way possible; like if we were friends, having a beer, and having a passionate diagreement...lol. I think words, and tone...are important. Now, without tone, is where many of us get misunderstood...and that's a trapping of e-communication.

IMO, your argument assumes it is your job to "save" the OP from "wasting" his money. I think there's a difference between saying "I don't usually hear much differences among DACs", and "you won't hear any differences between DACs"...and "anyone who hears a difference between DACs, means one is broken". It's a matter of severity.

It's also a matter of speaking for yourself..."I like" or "I don't"...and not imposing your opinion as fact, or applying it to anyone other than yourself..."you won't" or "no one can". Again, I think it's inflammatory.

I can't get enough mileage out of this drunk-ahole-at-a-party thing...lol; so plug in any subject. Penn likes sports; me too. So...the guy says "you know what football team I like; I like the Ravens" (me too). Is that different than the guy saying "you know who the best football team is; it's the Steelers". One's an opinion; one's an opinion, stated like a fact...and it's offensive (and as a Raven fan...if he weren't bigger than me...I'd grab some good, Purple-people and beat the shite out of him...but that's best left for another time).

I also have to admit; if you're telling me, you know it doesn't sound better, but you spent more than you have to on gear anyway...again, I'm not sure I get that. I mean, at least it's honest...but. All I can honestly say is that I buy what sounds better to me...and maybe it is psychoacoustics, but that my perception is my reality. Because of the way I look at music...and hearing that music...is not as 1s and 0s, or measurable, electrical impulses; but as beauty and art. It really is as anti-science as you can get. Because of that, I can't accept anyone's else's perception as the same as mine. You might as well judge Pollack on a scale of 1 to 10; it's wayyy too subjective for that...to me.

But you and I are officially on the agree to disagree list, because you at least present a compelling argument. You're beyond the "show me...show me...show me" phase. You and I could have a beer, and I could ask you about which amps you've tested...and what source material; and I'd be curious about how you really couldn't hear a difference. I'm not saying I would agree, but people can be friends without agreeing on everything.

This thread has about run its usefulness, and should really implode. Then again, not everyone has to agree with me...lol.

CD

That's a good point; I'm not interested in being surrounded by sycophants either.


Uh, oh; did I mis-use sleigh? Ah, damn; slay...as in slay a dragon. My bad; when are they going to make a text program that understands your intent?

CD

Well at last you got something right.



That's what I'm admitting. I clearly spent more money on electronics that do not sound any better than less expensive ones. Why? Because I can. I like the looks. I assume the build quality may be better. I like the hunt of searching for stuff. I really like buying stuff. And I change out my gear because I just like change. For example in the last year I traded out my seperates for a receiver. Then changed out the receiver for another. I am on my third set of speakers. And if I go back just 5 years I have owned more than two completly differents set of seperates. I have gone through at least 4-5 receivers. And I have so many speakers that I now just usually box them and store them, at least 10 changes. I have owned or own at least a half dozen DVD players, and have three gathering dust in the closet. I have at least a half dozen CD players that I never use, as I use my DVD players for CD playing but I really don't listen to CD's I listen to vinyl. I have tested everything and then some. And just love to immerse myself in the hobby. It may seem dumb, but other than cycling, it's brings me a lot of joy.

And I'll say again, based on what I have observed, tested, read, and researched. When level matched in a blind test, if somebody can tell the difference between DACS, one is broken or poorly engineered.

I've said this all along. Hey, it's a "hobby"...it's supposed to be fun. And all I ever perceive you guys to be saying is "you're wasting your money, naive jack-ass". Now, say someone's projecting all you want; that's a child's argument. That's like your Mommy saying "no one can make you feel that way, if you don't feel that way about yourself".

Again, that follows a 12 year-old's mentality. No one wants to be constantly shouted-down. I might counter this way...and I've said this a million times, just never in this way. I think...my perception...is you guys want to see the world the way it's supposed to be; the way it measures. I'm content to live in the world the way it is.

I don't need you to unplug me. If I want the red pill, I know where to find you. What am I, freakin' Neo over here?

Going to have to find another antagonist to keep you going. Penn and ht have been too reasonable, and the rest of you seem to have vanquished...so I think I've said all I need to get off my chest. Who's buying?

CD

And just so I walk away whole; and not that you all have to think of one mind...but what are the components that are allowed to sound different?

Correctly engineered...and I know, this sounds like it's dripping with sarcasm, but it's not...CD players, DACs, SS Pre-amps, SS-amps, and ALL cables...are the same-sounding, within the limits of human hearing? So that leaves speakers and tube gear...which is loaded with distortion anyway?

Hmm...what about the notion that we hear "better" when we're allowed to use our eyes? So when you DBT, you handicap us in a way that we don't experience when we're listening otherwise? Forgot about that one...lol. Ask any trained chef...of which I formerly am...it takes a very trained palette to identify taste without our eyes (every Culinary school in the world does "DBTs" day-one...lol). Maybe hearing is more than a one-sense experience, and the reported differences are not because of biases (you guys actually quote that...well, they hear it with their eyes open, but not with their eyes closed...so what else could it be?). Maybe it's you're tying one hand behind our backs, listening-wise, and making a false conclusion?

Damn; must stop posting. Making too much sense.

CD

penngray, my set up is nothing to rave about, there are plenty of people with really expensive high end stuff out there (meaning, really good dacs and analog sections) I have been working at it for quite sometime, changing cd players, speakers and amplifiers and I am vey happy with the sound that I'm getting at this point, I really don't feel the need to spend anymore that I need, simply because I can't.

I have an Ancient Arcam 300 receiver which analog inputs I use to get HD sound from my very, very slow Pioneer 51 bluray player ( soon to be replaced by the upcoming oppo 95). I power the left and right front channels with a Bel Canto Evo 4 which is even older than the Arcam and that powers the Gallo 3.1 speakers for music and movies. I also use an Outlaw 2200 mono amp for my reference Gallo center speaker. The Arcam receiver then powers the 4 surround channels.
My suv is from SVS, all I know is that is about 3-1/2 years old and there are 2 10" woofers under that huge black Box. The Marantz SA-11S1 cd player for sacd and cd playback.

Six months ago I sold my 2 pairs of Transparent ultra interconnects and replaced them with TDKs, yes, tdk cables that my dad got for .99 cents a pair somewhere in town in a store going out of business, ever heard of them?, me neither, anyways, I found that they do a better job in my system than the Transparents ever did, so I sold them and saved myself $800.00 hard earned ones. My room is 14' wide by 26' long with carpet, and I'm currently using the hard working and never failing Panasonic 2000 projector until 3-D projectors become a reachable affair.

There you go, nothing fancy, and I'm looking for cheap gear, say, $1000.00 total to deliver the same experience I enjoy now, that way I can sell all this junk to the guy who bought the tranparent cables.

Ravens? Steelers? Patriots (and I'm not especially a fan).

You still haven not mentioned a thing about acoustic treatments, which explains why you would post such content below. vvv

Nothing special, rug and double curtains on all walls from front to back.

I believe this is the first time I've seen someone quote themself in entirety. Is this the iPod generation thing?

Why would someone who would so desperately like for everyone else to believe that everything sounds the same believe that an identical digital copy would sound different than the original, or was this meant to be a joke?

Two people, one who posted and another who PM'd didn't understand my post, hence the explanation.

What generational thing is it to add smart ass comments when a simple question will do?

Maybe discussions about music will de-rail this sucker? Right now, I'm listening to Echo & The Bunnymen Heaven Up Here. On my EE MiniMax DAC...oh sh*t!

Just did a little reading on Caelin Gabriel; interesting.

CD

I asked a very simple question. Why would you speculate that an identical digital copy could sound different than the original? What could cause the copy to sound different?

Give 'em a good "ignore". bubba's posts are laughable.

Yes, it would be. But, if other features on the 95 matters and not available on the 93, than that is a choice reason to buy that.

I never ventured beyond, Songs to Learn and Sing from ages ago. I liked several songs from it, but I rarely felt compelled to revisit them, apart from, The Killing Moon. Still like that song but I used to flat out love it when I was but an impressionable wee lad. I'm sure that song sounds great on that DAC. Or any DAC.

As for the latter comment. Have fun with this, you glutton for punishment you.

In fact every scientist is in the "audible differences between amps and DACs exist" camp, because there is always some POS equipment that works that way. Some of that kind of equipment is sold in the high end marketplace, and most of the rest is sold in discount stores as rack systems and the like.

The "audible differences between amps and DACs don't exist" camp is in fact a fanciful creation of people who believe in the near-universal existence of audible differences.

Reality is that "audible differences between amps and DACs exist" but not nearly as often as people with product to sell at any cost to the truth seem to think. Note that I'm no saying that they are lying, because lying implies knowing the truth, which they presumably don't know given how forcefully they deny it.

When faced with a new truth, some accept it, and some use the "Ostrich Defense". It has always been this way, even long before hi fi was a common hobby. For example, this is why the U.S. had a War of Independence and a Civil War. It's why the Children of Israel left Egypt.

There were 2 first generation CD players, one by Phillips, and one by Sony. It is pretty well known that the Sony was not perfectly sonic ally transparent, just really close. With most recordings it provided an indistinguishable replica of the recording, but if you carefully picked the music, you could hear that something was not exactly right in the high treble. There were actually two technical problems there, one because the outputs were offset by 22 microseconds (audible when you summed the channels) and the response above 14 KHz was not exactly smooth or flat. AFAIK the Phillips, which used next-generation technology DACs, was sonic ally transparent.


There actually were some pretty tremendous differences among the first and second generation players. They elated to the ability to track suboptimal CDs. According to my sources who did a lot of warranty repairs of CD players, it took almost 10 years for CD players to be able to play damaged disc's to the full extent possible with advanced technology. The problem is that bad tracking doesn't necessarily sound like bad tracking. People self-diagnosed everything from bad DACs to bad interconnects when the real problem was bad tracking.

In audio's wacky high end, the logical physical connection between the player and the DAC was severed, which introduced a wealth of new potential problems with attendant audible differences. The problems this created was not solved to anything like a universal degree until the late 90s, AFAIK.


Right and their industry provided them with *solutions* such as putting the converters in separate boxes, which if done naively enough, would indeed result in audible differences. It was also an opportunity to reintroduce vinyl as the *ultimate playback medium*.

Fantastic post.

Oh c'mon man; Songs to Learn and Sing is a compilation...and it came 4 years after Heaven Up Here. Like saying Paul McCartney's best work was a Wings greatest hits album.

CD

Thanks, I own 7 of those Outlaw 2200s I also just picked up a Bel Canto Evo2 and an ATI at602. Still looking for a W4S two channel amp.

I also have a collection of Sunfire Sig,Rotel, B&K amps and about 10 pro audio amps. My pre/pros are Onkyo 885, NAD T-175, Outlaw 970, Meridan 861. My AVRs are Denon 2809, 3805, Yahama 2500 and even a cheapo Yahama V663 and Pioneer VSX815. Im about to buy the Marantz AV7005.

As I posted already all my speakers are DIY speakers but my custom 2 channel speakers would be similar to Salk's HT3, I love ribbon tweeters. My drivers alone for 2 channels cost more then $1K so to buy a design like that would be > $5K just for a pair of speakers.

My HT room has Waveguides designs (DIY but with Dr. Geddes principles behind them). I moved the ribbons to my office. Controlled directivity and Clean dynamics are incredible for HT and the ribbons didnt make that grade. Still like the ribbon designs for music listening at closer distances. My HT room is about the same size as yours 15x25 but its completely treated first reflection OC703 and corner tri-traps. 2011, Im rebuilding the room to get better gain down low, I want what MKTheater (another member) gets in his room so Im redesigning plus Im adding sound proofing and tapped horns tuned to 10Hz built into the room. I will probably spend the $10K in a 3D projector with the 2011 build.

Did I say I have some subwoofers (4 x 18" IB array in the family room), 2 x LMS 18" sealed designs w/ 4000Watts each in my HT room (2 15" ported designs built into the wall too) along with my main speakers having AV15X driver for bass bin full range performance (very similar drivers found in the Seaton Submersive)

My house has 5 dedicated 20 amp circuits just for audio nirvana in 3 different rooms and I have over 25,000 Watts of power available

As you can see, I do not own an Insignia.


Oh...wait for it......



I have a BOSE 321 in my bedroom... Now that is Ironic


The real conclusion though is that if expensive products really mattered, I would have bought them and kept them I recently sold a $4K amp and kepted a $500 amp...hmmm.

It does not make sense to me, sorry.

I would assume that you believe you can control the bias your eyes create? You can control the brain's subconcious conclusion that Rotel is an amazing name brand or that a $2000 CD player is better then a $500 CD player because $2000 > $500? You would be the first test case ever to show that kind of control.


There is a mountain of evidence that shows all these "External Variables" cause the brain to make conclusions without any data from the ears. The brain honestly does not care what your ears heard. It already had conclusions done when it saw brand and price.

Remove the brand and price and amazingly no one every makes the same conclusions they do with sighted tests.

No one EVER said more expensive is better; let's not confuse that with saying everything sounds the same. I respect your decision, but I don't see how you can make the arguments you do...and then have 30 different amps? Why not 30 of the same whatever? I guess you and other have confessed that's no fun, but I truly don't get it.

Don't need to; interesting to hear how the other half lives.

CD

That's because you apparently don't comprehend what other people post. penn has, in this thread, stated exactly why he has all those amps.

I have to first ask..

Who has posted "everything sounds the same"? That comes up way too much. I will post that if its measures the same its going to sound the same and I have $$$ for anyone to prove that POV wrong because no one has done it in 40 years.

Now, Im kind of confused on your point? You do not understand why I own many different amps and AVRs or Pre/pros?

That is simple, I have tested my theories for years. I would never post about testing, measurements if I didnt first try like hell to prove theories wrong. I enjoy buy audio equipment and finding out the truth. I liked owned ever brand of AVR so that when subjective posts like "Onkyo vs Yahama, Onkyo has better bass" happen, I know the poster is usually wrong and didnt know what really made the difference.

Im in the audio hobby for science. I build speakers to learn what really matters ( I have my educated conlusions now, Linear phase coherence ) and I also to just like to build something in my garage (I rebuild same designs different ways just for kicks).

I listen to music on the medium of convience, right now its my notebook while Im in a hotel 1000 miles from home.

This goes back to our individual starting point of reference. I spend a lot of time learning about the real scientific differences in the audio world so when someone posts opinion on DACs Im always waiting for the real proof. It never happens though.

Have you ever wondered why there isnt scientific evidence behind many claims?

Yeah Penn...and on this, I can just speak in my terms; in terms of common-sense. This isn't some study you're throwing at me. So I ask...in all sincerity...as a man of science...

My question is this: when it comes to an activity like tasting, I think most people would assume we taste with our mouths. But...talk about a simple test to conduct; it's clear many/most people can't correctly identify very common foods when they can't see them. See a Red Pepper, taste a Red Pepper. But if you blindfold them, they can't tell it's a Red Pepper.

Hmm, this is actually an argument probably more to your point. It's not a bias so much, with food; but a conditioning...an expectation. So you're saying we see Krell, and we have been conditioned it should sound a certain way...and our brain convinces us it does? Hmm...I buy that; I do.

But I guess I stick to my original argument; if that is my perception, that is my reality. I guess my argument in regards to food, illustrates another of my original contentions; that we allow our brain to "trick" us into believing a lot of things. The Mercedes drives better, because of the status of the badge and the price. Lobster tastes better than fish, because it's more expensive...but blindfolded, you probably couldn't tell one from another.

I say "that's just the way life is"; we've been lead to believe some things are "better". People would rather go to Paris than Pakistan...lol. Why; better marketing? Bias is all around us; part of the human experience. Why do we have to single out hi-end audio?

CD

Yes, I use "expectations" in the discussions all the time.

There is nothing wrong with "expectations" but it does move the conclusions very far from the signals the ears send the brain alone.


There is no problem with people making their own conclusions any way the see fit (its still 100% choice). The problem happens when those people post their conclusions online as facts and others read them thinking "Well Product X must be better".


1. Because the average person thinks they can not have quality audio without those "hi-end" products.
2. Those involved with "Hi End" simply create too much confusion.

Btw,
Paris is objectively (not just subjectively) better then Pakistan How about Signapore vs Paris? or Amsterdam vs Paris? I have been to them all I know which one I like the best

Oh c'mon; you may not have...as I've mentioned, you're more reasonable than that. But you haven't seen some assert that in this thread? Is this a matter of semantics? Oh, wait...maybe I misspoke; things sound different, they just can't be heard by human ears. But you're not hiding behind that, because it still wouldn't explain 30 different amps...lol.


Uh, sure; some stuff people don't care about. They make fun it in TV shows all the time. Here's $9 million to study the effects of S.A.D. in Native Americans. Not meaning to single anything out, but you get the joke. And honestly...I am sorry it flies in the face of what most of you believe, but I don't think people care about this.

We agree on one thing; "audiophile"-anything, represents about 1% of 1% of 1% of the population. And those who have any interest in debunking hi-end audio even less than that. I make, what I think is the easiest argument in the world...which you guys see as ridiculous, I'm sure. I have glossy magazines in Barnes and Noble...that people willingly pay for...wait on even...dedicated to my thing.

Money talks, and BS walks. How come I don't see anti-Stereophile monthly? The only anti-hi-end sentiment I see, is on free chat boards, such as thus.

CD

Man, this is still about that? About protecting innocent ears from misinformation? If I tell him it sounds better, or he thinks it does...and then it does, to the best of his abilities...his perception is his reality.

Let me ask you this: who spends more on advertising than probably any audio company in the world? Sony? Why don't we all think Sony is the best? I'm a DAC guy; who does Stereohile thinks makes the best-sounding DAC? The $30,000 dCS stack? Is that what you think I recommend to people?

My DAC has never been reviewed in Stereophile, AFAIK; I've relied on fellow enthusiasts. Sometimes I like what they like...sometimes not. Why haven't I followed 100% of the time?

CD