preamps with HT bypass for under $2K

I also have the Denon 4310 and the Oppo 83 and found that using analog out from oppo or hdmi to Denon doesnt make a much (if any) difference for cd playback. I am moving towards pc based music for convenience so I am going to try the soon to be released Audiolab 8200CDQ which is Dac/pre/cd with bypass and same sabre chip as the Oppo 95. I hope this will be an ideal product to combine HT, 2-channel and computer based quality.
Alternatives would be Bel canto Dac 2.5 and Wyred 4 Sound Dac 2 which both can be used as 2-channel pre/dac and has HT bypass.
If you are getting the Oppo 95, there should be no need for a pre with dac.. Primare PRE30 could be an option.

I've use a few 2ch with HT BYPASS feature, and there are few things you should consider.One being if you what tube, or SS depending what's you preference. If you don't mind that the Unit needs to be actually powered, so you use your AVR when watching a movie using your system.

One of my favorite 2CH Preamp is the Belles 28A, for its smooth, neutral, sweet sounding. It's Solid State and it's has plenty of in's and outs, the only negative I can think about is that it need to be ON position for your AVR to play the front L/R channels.
This unit cost about 5 grand, but it can be had under 2 in the use market. Right now, there's one on AGon in black for that price. I've been very tempted to cop one, but I have to curve any urges. Oh something else about this particular piece, it has two phone outs MM/MC which is quite rear, if your into vinyl.

The other one is Modwright SL36.5 which happens to be Tube action, so you'll have to be a slave to switching them if you feel they're using any oomph, or lack of bass etc. I thought the Modwright is simply amazing sounding. Just remarkable sounding, I guess it the tubes creating all that lovely distortion that comes out as thick, moist, gooey, syrupy joyfulness
Lots thigh bass, souring highs, and all about the midrange. This unit put my system in a different league, I really love the fact it can be use while it remained OFF which is a beautiful thing, and it can save burning your precious tubes.The unit it's on the expensive side, but if you can swing an extra 1K, it well worth it...Not to mention it's a piece of art, which will look great in any rack.

My least favorite was the Emotiva USP-1 which did have some excellent features like sub woofer out, for a 2.1, but it did have it limitations when it came to running your full range, I can't recall exactly what they where, but they're were some people that weren't happy about this. The new XSP-1 suppose to address this issue.
What I wasn't exactly happy about was the sound quality of this unit, to me it sounded bright, and distant, I just didn't connect as well as with the other units..Of course those other where several times more expensive than the USP-1, and like the Belles 28A, it needs to be on to let the AVR's front R/L's to work.

Just a few of three of the units I've used in my system, I'm sure others much more experience than me will post.
Oh before I forget, I'll be definitely be trying out the Parasound 2100 in my system sooner or later, and would like to see what Emo will do with their new 2ch Pre..Hopefully they'll address the few issues with the USP-1 short comings.

Good Luck

Djoel

As you know, I tried the P7, but it sounded veiled in my system. All the feedback I've received is that the P7 is an incredibly clear and accurate pre-amp, and there was something wrong with either my system or the P7. Don't know as I was looking for a MCH pre-amp, not a problem to solve. I send it back and purchased a used Acoustic Research MP-1. It sounds great in my system, and I now use it as my main 2CH and MCH pre-amp. Features-wise, the P7 had it all over the MP-1. Sound-wise, the MP-1 had it all over the P7.

While the MP-1 does not have a lot of features compared to the P7, it does have a "processor" mode for each set of connections which puts the i/o path in unity gain for HT bypass. And you can probably find one at the upper limit of your spend.

I've already conveyed my thoughts on these pre-amps at both the BDP-83SE and Parasound P7 threads. Some creative searching should give you more insight about my time with both pre-amps.

Styln

Hey Sound mind here's an ad from Agon of the Belles 28A, if I had some extra cash this unit would have been in my rack..I think I mention this already, it was so long ago

You have fun, doing your reserch, and the ad by all means isn't pushing towards a decisions .

DJoel

It certainly can be a wild (and expensive) ride. Even with full range front speakers, I still like to use my subs for some of my stereo material. Because I use an external DAC and music server, I don't believe in using the SSP for 2 channel listening; it's too many conversions and negates the reason for buying a high-end DAC. Although 2 channel analogue direct is excellent on my SSP, I lose the subs.

Check out the Odyssey Candelea 2ch tube pre amp. $1600 new w/Ht bypass and zero feedback. Built in the USA. Most likely if you call you'll talk to Klaus the owner. He'll give you all the details.

A Modwright SWL 9.0 is a tube based pre with HT bypass. They are usually available on Audiogon used well within your price range. Also made in the US, and upgradeable by Dan Wright should you want further mods.

Having owned a parasound 2100, found it pretty feature packed for a 2ch pre. And it is amazingly cheap. And for the money probably not much else around. But there is easily better around in my opinion if spend just a little bit more.

Some great pre's coming to mind with htbypass..

primare pre 30
Musical fidelity a308
Musical fidelity a5cr pre
Arcam pre c31
Krell kav 250p

In the tubes
Audio research sp16
Supratek various models
Aksa swift

Also while looking at pres I'd bring to mind the awesome collection of 2ch integrated amplifiers with ht bypass...give you a 2ch pre and power upgrade in the one hit. A huge collection of these around. And all with very decent pre stages, so don't for one minute think be robbing yourself in some way by getting one of those units

You are describing what DSP processing did to improve sound in your room. No matter what components you use for pure analog path, you won't be able to get better sound. So forget analog. Pure digital and DSP processing is the way to go. If you do not need 3D video, keep Oppo-83 and save money for something else.

The problem with a one box solution (and I have that now and like my Bryston SP1.7) is that technology changes on the digital side more rapidly. I do have secondary basement and bedroom systems and I don't mind rotating stuff say to the basement system in a few years (I bought a Pioneer 1120 for now). So if I got a decent HT pre/pro it would make a nice upgrade to the basement system in a few years if there was something newer out there. I'm definitely leaning towards the preamp with HT bypass solution. I'll probably go more than $2k. It's still cheaper than getting an expensive processor that 5 years down the road is perhaps semi-obsolete

You could spend $10,000 on a high end 2-ch preamp but it may not make the bass less boomy since that is the characteristic of the room. I have the USP1 and it is not sophisticated in any way. It does have manual bass management which the 2100 also has (but 2100 is fixed at 80Hz for low pass). I can't adjust the sub level on the USP1 which is a draw back for me.

Bass traps also don't completely eliminate the boominess as they don't completely eliminate the standing waves as far as I understand. I do have bass traps in the corners in my living room from floor to ceiling. I made corner traps using the OC 703 2inch panels. They dont get rid of boominess completely.

I use an inexpensive bass EQ, the well known AntiMode 8033 and this does a much better job of reducing the boominess. My understanding is that it works in both time and freq. domain. Reviews have shown that Audyssey MultEq also does pretty much the same level of correction. But the problem for me is that I dont want a flat response for the entire range. I like laid back mids. So I use the manual EQ on my Denon 3310 to cut down the mids and use the AntiMode 8033 to EQ the bass (sub, Snfire True Sub Junior). This works fine for me.

I also have the Behringer DEQ2496 which has a 31band GEQ per channel (2 channels) and a 10 band PEQ. This works only in the freq. domain. I dont know the technical details behind EQing in freq domain vs EQing in time and freq domain so I will not get into any debate on that topic. I just know that the Antimode 8033 works better. You could also use the Behringer DEQ2496 as a DAC. I have tried some DAC options and CD players under $1000 and I didnt hear much difference at all with my speakers (Magnepan MG12's). The improvements may be so subtle that it may not be worth spending a lot of money on preamp/amp/AVR/source by keeping the same speakers. May be the speakers also have to go up the ladder to be able to reproduce the subtle differences the equipment may be capable of. Just my 2c's

Som, keep in mind all bass management does is place an active xover inside the pre amp, this itself can be quite a variable quality and given space constraints can be pretty average at best if trying to fit inside the unit, for the purists it defeats the purpose of a pure analog pre in any case as especially if the analog pre has a digital crossover within, it's just digitizing the analog signal to get the job done.

And your right There are many many very nice analog pres you would rule out if went down the pre with bass management path. If keeping the xover as separate item you can buy the pre of choice and add on any xover be it analog or digital of your choice. There are xover's upward from $99 that likely do a better job than the ones you get thrown in with units with bass management.

As far as integrated Amps, there are quite a few top class units, and why suggested to have a look, as pulling them into contention will only give you more choice of really nice units to pick from, with both pre and power built in one.

Some examples,

Musical fidelity a5. 250wpc
Musical fidelity a308
Musical fidelity m6i if can swing for less than 2k
Musical fidelity a1
Cyrus 8 integrated or lesser models
Naim integrated
Arcam any in their range
rega elicit
Cambridge audio 840a
Nad master series m3
Krell kav 300i
Krell kav 400xi
Krell s300i

The krell, musical fidelity options for instance will not by any chance leave you wanting in either their pre or power. the musical fidelity a5 for instance I first heard with my utopia divas and made me sit up and listen, such is the quality of the pre and power stage it has built in.

the nad masterseries m3 another very interesting option. I own that myself for a bedroom setup, heres a pic of it trying it out in my main system driving the Divas



it does have a xover built in. but is perhaps one example where done right. it is a pure analog xover of excellent quality. one of few rare units around I reckon if looking for a n integrated unit with pre and power built in of highest order and flexibility of a very useable xover available for use if so have the desire. grab one of these if looking for something with the lot and no compromise...

if its room eq you desire for integration of a sub into the system and room, then the velo sms1 would be top of list. comparitively inexpensive and does a beaut job in my opinion, something else have stashed away in my bedroom system

yep nad m3, here's a shot of it in the bedroom setup



if ever come across the m3, you'll see its really quite something. but the beaut part is they do come up second hand every now and then and be well within your $2k budget !

and yeah as your thinking a denon avr coupled with a nice 2ch integrated with ht bypass would really not need you wanting for much more


if you have the velo DD10 coming, you need nothing else eq wise in my opinion. I use DD15 on my main system for 2ch, have done so for last 4 years. you dont need to do any subwoofer crawl with it either. just put mic at listening position and move the dd10 around till get the most smoothest response. for eq the sms eq built in the dd10 will help you get a beautifull integration of the sub into your mains and with your room to beautifull result

Yeah the OC703 panels need some clothing to make it more appealing. They do reduce the bass accumulation at the corners but they will not completely eliminate the boominess. You can buy panels that are more appealing but are more expensive. You can also cover the OC 703 panels using Guilford panel fabric to improve WAF factor. But just using the Antimode 8033 may be enough. I didnt bother to remove the panels to see what that does to the bass. It was a lot of work to cut them and put them in the corners.

I have not done any serious comparison of the USP1 with the Denon 3310 yet but I can also say that it is not like night and day difference. I used the full range outputs from the USP1 so I didnt have any thing to tweak. I have the Rotel RB-1080 to drive my speakers. I have the Magnepan MG12 and also the Klipsch RF-82. The RF-82 of course goes a lot lower than the MG12 and can play a lot louder but with out any EQ it does sound boomy at particular frequencies where my room has issues. My room has 2 nasty peaks at 125Hz and 33Hz. Unless they are corrected the boominess at those frequencies will never go away. My best bet is to use the sub along with the Antimode 8033 and run the mains crossed over at 80Hz. That still does not fix the issue at 125Hz. So I just reduce the GEQ on the 3310 at 125Hz by 5db.

I have used Cambridge Azur 640C V2, the DacMagic, Anthem AVM20 V2.21, NAS C162 (2ch analog pre-amp) and they all pretty much sounded similar. Sometimes higher volume may make us believe that the SQ is better. Analog pre-amps with balanced outputs can output higher pre-out voltage so they can drive the speakers much louder than the AVR's which only output some 1V max at the pre-outs. This 1V is just not enough to drive speakers like Magnepans. so I use a bumpbox by Samson to bump up the pre-out voltage from the Denon 3310. The USP1 as the specs say, seem to output higher voltage than the AVR but I doubt if it peaks at 9V. If that is the case even a quarter turn of the volume knob should play my MG12's very loud as I can get full amplification from the Rotel RB-1080 (which claims its sensitivity as 1.2V) but that is not the case with the USP1. After the 10 O'clock position on the volume knob it is a struggle to drive my MG12's.

Try the Antimode 8033 first before spending a lot of money on pre-amps. I bought the B-version for $248. The C-version I guess is $350. You can sell it easily at Audiogon if it doesnt work for you. It is just plug and play type. No tweaking. Just plug it, press 2 buttons and it runs the sweep and applies the correction. The difference between B and C versions is that in the C version the volume automatically adjusts during the measurement , if it is very loud to begin with. You can go to the sub woofer forum to get more details.

Yep. All the gear I would like to have but it probably costs twice as much as my house :-)

I am using a Classe cp 50 with phono much the same way you are describing. I am very pleased with the sound both with vinyl and stereo cd, and sacd, and it does have the theater bypass. I have seen these on audiogon and ebay once in a while for around 1k.