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the HouseWrecker. 11hz Twin CVX-15 Tapped Horn - Page 4

post #91 of 385
4/2/11 at 6:08pm
Tried to look you up on FB, Deon. No option to send any request.
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post #92 of 385
4/2/11 at 6:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dB-Kicker View Post

Have more photo's of it on my FB page - and the rest of the HT (not yet finished). The mains for the HT are wicked fun. WMTMW's using drivers I designed for work (and system) that kill the Kripsch THX-Ultra2 system. Measured at listening position - with zero room treatment - in listening location, they do ~~ 115dB from ~~ 25hz through 22k per each with 75 watts (more on the powered woofer sections obviously) under 10% thd - roughly +/- 2dB for most of bandwidth, bout +/-5 in L/F including room. pick of front stage (again unfinished) attached.

If you want to add me look for Deon Bearden in Stillwater OK - put theHouseWrecker or AVS Forum in the note from the add request.

Those graphs are NUTS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Horton View Post

Tried to look you up on FB, Deon. No option to send any request.

I had the same issue, he had to add me
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post #93 of 385
4/2/11 at 6:31pm
WOW that is some huge horn. I wish I had the room for a 1500L cab but only have room for smaller sealed cabinets.

Which when money plays a big part starts to add up quickly. 2-4 drivers vs 8 and a massive amp I just wish I had the room to save myself some money. BUT the wifey wont like a TH to rap around the room.

I am still trying to find the cheapest and easiest way to achieve my ULF wants in my not so friendly living room

Oh and I cant really tell but is your viewing screen attached to the wall? Or is it off of the wall?
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post #94 of 385
4/2/11 at 7:18pm
dB-Kicker - All makes sense to me. I completely agree that the horn has some of the cleanest response I've heard as well. I was honestly just curious and thought I'd ask the question. You bring up some very good points, sound quality being only one. The issue of cost for performance when it come to amplifiers is a good pro, as well. I have a couple brand new, in-the-box, eD 190v.2's that I've been looking for a "home" for them, either by sale or putting them to use in the theater. There may be a horn in there near future?.?.?

Keep up the good fight, man.



dbl
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post #95 of 385
4/4/11 at 2:52pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

WOW that is some huge horn.
Oh and I cant really tell but is your viewing screen attached to the wall? Or is it off of the wall?

Yep - its big. The screen hangs from the soffit 18"s off the back wall, 2 feet down from the ceiling.
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post #96 of 385
4/4/11 at 2:53pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

Those graphs are NUTS!



I had the same issue, he had to add me

I may have removed that option without a direct e-mail (IOW know me first) I'll look.
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post #97 of 385
4/4/11 at 3:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbldare View Post

dB-Kicker - All makes sense to me. I completely agree that the horn has some of the cleanest response I've heard as well. I was honestly just curious and thought I'd ask the question. You bring up some very good points, sound quality being only one. The issue of cost for performance when it come to amplifiers is a good pro, as well. I have a couple brand new, in-the-box, eD 190v.2's that I've been looking for a "home" for them, either by sale or putting them to use in the theater. There may be a horn in there near future?.?.?

Keep up the good fight, man.



dbl

Let us know what you decide on doing. There are lots of ways to build nuts Bass. Just for fun - here's the last of theBeast line-up...
LL
LL
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post #98 of 385
4/4/11 at 5:44pm
I remember those pics. I'd LOVE to put that in my wall. So this horn is going to smash those, eh?
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post #99 of 385
4/5/11 at 8:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post
I remember those pics. I'd LOVE to put that in my wall. So this horn is going to smash those, eh?
Yep.
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post #100 of 385
4/5/11 at 8:06am
Hi Deon
Well it is like you said big and scary, but have you damaged your house yet haha?
Best,
Tom Danley
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post #101 of 385
4/5/11 at 11:29am
Thread Starter 
Hi Tom,
Have to finish it first. I'll be sure to include post wreckage shots when we fire this monster up! Hopefully we won't have any fatalities.. };->
Good to see you Tom..
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post #102 of 385
4/5/11 at 11:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dB-Kicker View Post

This isn't something to replace different methods of achieving high SPL low bass - or that I'm advocating other people should build. I won't get into that discussion. I've already built just about every other type of insane sub there is. So far - a well done tapped horn sounds better at a given SPL than any other method I've used for a given driver compliment - so I'm trying my hand at an over the top variant. This is my expiriment and foray into the world of Excess Deep Bass via Tapped horns.. I'm doing it for my own fun!

I am also using dead space in my garrage corner. As it happens - it is the perfect distance to drop the final flare into the livingroom -in the livingroom corner. The in room flare is less than ~~5 cubic feet of room consumed - only protruding from the wall ~~ 16"s.

Realistically - I couldn't afford all the amps and transducers required to hit the SPL this will at 10hz in an I.B. I'm taking relatively affordable very decent car audio transducers - and showing what U can do in a tapped horn with them. Auto aftermarket transducers are Ideal in many respects for Tapped horn apps. Tapped horns love tuning ~~1 to 1.5x octave below Fo.

That - and we're looking at potentially in excess of 130dB capabillity at the listeing position 5 meters away - from a single amp and pair of drivers down to 11hz, - total cost to build including drivers and power less than $1.5k for a consumer. Less than 1k if he has amps already. And even less if her were creative.

Another thought - I also have two drivers on in inroom manifold, and an additional 3/4" ply sepperating the home from garrage. Drivers set IB in my attick will leak serious cold / heat depending on the time of year. And their performance will vary continuously with attick / garrage temp. These won't.

Plus -I'm not doing this for average joe. Just me. If you've seen me around before (Audionuttt / dr-Bass / etc ) - most of the things I do are a lil excessive in the bass department...


I have had several discussion on a LARGE HORN 11Hz tuning project.

So I guess I will ask here, how do I get a set of plans for this design? What drivers do I buy??
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post #103 of 385
4/5/11 at 12:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I have had several discussion on a LARGE HORN 11Hz tuning project.

So I guess I will ask here, how do I get a set of plans for this design? What drivers do I buy??

Bob all of the details of this build are right here in this thread. The thread details the tapped horn simulation, drive units, and 3d models of the physical enclosure.

This is NOT something being advocated for someone to replicate - it's complex, and requires partial deconstruction and reconstruction of a room to build it.

I don't think you will find any "kits" or DIY friendly "plans" available yet for a simplified version of an 11hz tapped horn online anywhere just yet.

You could download horn response for free. Start looking around for suitable drivers suitable to your budget. Etc....

The drivers being used here are twin 15" CVX drivers.
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post #104 of 385
4/5/11 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbldare View Post

No disrespect intended but when does this type of project become an IB type set-up?

...snip...

dbl

When there is only one peak in the impedance plot.

This is a tapped horn, and as such, it will have three major peaks (~9, ~17, and ~37 Hz.) and at least five minors, though the smaller minor peaks will likely get buried due to the impedance rise.
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post #105 of 385
4/6/11 at 1:50pm
Thread Starter 
hi Mike,

I'm guessing he was referring to which is more practical - this ginormous huge complex enclosure requiring massive wall decon and reconstruction - etc. or just cutting a hole, building a baffle and stuffing it full of drivers without the complexity and effort required to build theHouseWrecker.

More like "Why aren't U doing an IB setup?"

now - if I can get off my BUM (err get away from the 2 y/o) this weekend, make a cut sheet (proving to be laborous) for the new manifold and wall pieces, and get some cutting done - I could have almost it ready to cut through the wall this weekend.....

OMGosh why oh why do 2 y/o's have such insane hyper never ending motors in them?!?!?! We could power entire cities with just one!
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post #106 of 385
4/6/11 at 2:24pm
Quote:


OMGosh why oh why do 2 y/o's have such insane hyper never ending motors in them?!?!?! We could power entire cities with just one!

I have one of those....they do have naps and go to bed early though so there is always that 12 hour window
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post #107 of 385
4/8/11 at 7:17am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by penngray View Post

I have one of those....they do have naps and go to bed early though so there is always that 12 hour window

hi Bob!

I haven't done this since I was in my early 20's (early 40's now...). Back then my then wife was there to help and I was an army. lil better shape! LOL

Now - my wife to be works evenings - I work days, we get exactly 4 days off a month together. She takes care of him mornings, I do after work. By the time I get him down - I am whupped OYE!...

I think he has something stronger than a nuclear reactor fueling him. Maybe the worlds first fusion reactor!!

Heh.
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post #108 of 385
4/8/11 at 8:19pm
My 2.5 year old doesn't take naps. And if Papi is not home she will go from 8am till 10pm. If I am home she still doesn't take naps but I can get her to bed at 8pm.

Does your screen move when playing ULF?

I was just thinking of that the other day. I wont be able to have my screen on the wall it will be hung from the ceiling so I wondered how sturdy they are at NOT moving. Everything else moves so I figured it will move some so I will have to try and search for solutions to minimize movement.
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post #109 of 385
4/14/11 at 1:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post

My 2.5 year old doesn't take naps. And if Papi is not home she will go from 8am till 10pm. If I am home she still doesn't take naps but I can get her to bed at 8pm.

Does your screen move when playing ULF?

I was just thinking of that the other day. I wont be able to have my screen on the wall it will be hung from the ceiling so I wondered how sturdy they are at NOT moving. Everything else moves so I figured it will move some so I will have to try and search for solutions to minimize movement.

No sub woofer yet - no ULF. Screen doesn't currently move. House vibrates. Books on shelves move around. Air registers and odd things every where "talk". Dishes rattle. I have ~~ some bass. Down to 20 I call "bass" which is what a woofer is called on to reproduce, and below that, what everyone seems to call ULF - is just deep bass to me. ULF is 10hz or so and below in my eyes.

Easy to brace the back if it starts to move with real bass.
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post #110 of 385
4/14/11 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
My 2.5 year old doesn't take naps. And if Papi is not home she will go from 8am till 10pm. If I am home she still doesn't take naps but I can get her to bed at 8pm.

Does your screen move when playing ULF?

I was just thinking of that the other day. I wont be able to have my screen on the wall it will be hung from the ceiling so I wondered how sturdy they are at NOT moving. Everything else moves so I figured it will move some so I will have to try and search for solutions to minimize movement.
I bet if you have have very intense bass you'll have more of a problem from the projector shaking which will cause the image on screen to blur vs the screen shaking. That's my experience at least when things get to movin and shakin.
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post #111 of 385
4/15/11 at 12:08am
And for that reason I was going to mount the projector to a stand which will be some what isolated from the floor. I dont think I will ever have enough bass in my room to shake the air enough that the projector would rattle. My house isn't very good at helping out on the lower frequencies. I figure if it isn't attached to the walls then I should have a good chance at making the projector not move.

The screen though was going to be attached to the ceiling so I just wondered. I have never had a projector or screen so i didn't know how well they are stationary.

And being that DB kickers room is great for bass I figured he would have more bass than I ever would so I wondered on his movement of the screen.
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post #112 of 385
4/19/11 at 1:05am
Kicker, Mike, could this thing be slightly modded to fit a van? Has Kicker done any interesting alignments such as tapped horns for demo vehicles? if so I'd like to see some pics/vids. How cool would it be to pull up in the lanes and blast a 160... off two 15's? How cool would it be to blast a 150.... at 11Hz?

Edit: off just 1 or 2 2500.1s and a single alt?

/back on topic
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post #113 of 385
4/19/11 at 1:54am
Wait wait wait... so horns have cleaner bass than sealed subs?
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post #114 of 385
4/19/11 at 2:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post
Wait wait wait... so horns have cleaner bass than sealed subs?
even cleaner than IB??
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post #115 of 385
4/19/11 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite View Post

Kicker, Mike, could this thing be slightly modded to fit a van? Has Kicker done any interesting alignments such as tapped horns for demo vehicles? if so I'd like to see some pics/vids. How cool would it be to pull up in the lanes and blast a 160... off two 15's? How cool would it be to blast a 150.... at 11Hz?

Edit: off just 1 or 2 2500.1s and a single alt?

/back on topic

This little monster is nearly 80 cubic feet. It would be the van....

I doubt you'd get a 160 out of it either. That's plenty of power, but down low, the drivers will clank or smoke once you're above 135 dB (.5pi space). At 40 Hz, there is plenty of excursion left, but that's not your goal. Bass takes displacement - horns do not change the amount of driver displacement available, they just make the most of what you have available, within their operating range.
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post #116 of 385
4/19/11 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post

Wait wait wait... so horns have cleaner bass than sealed subs?

Try one and see. You might be surprised.

Be sure it is an apples to apples comparison though. Don't compare something like the Anarchy tapped horn with a single 6.5 to an 8 X 18 sealed or IB setup - that's just not a vaild comparison. You've got to look at something with equal displacement capability. As the driver in a properly designed horn uses less excursion to deliver the same SPL when compared to the same driver in a direct radiator mode, power requirements are lower, as are distortion products.

Within their intended passband, horns (tapped or normal) reduce distortion compared to the same driver in a direct radiator mode. With the design here, I've also incorporated a manifold with one driver inverted, that helps things too. I'm not done with the tweaks and tuning on this one yet, we've got to get accurate SPL and distortion measurements first (which is dB's day job, so no issue there...)

The key words here are "Within their intended passband". Outside of that passband - things go wrong quickly.
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post #117 of 385
4/19/11 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
This little monster is nearly 80 cubic feet. It would be the van....

I doubt you'd get a 160 out of it either. That's plenty of power, but down low, the drivers will clank or smoke once you're above 135 dB (.5pi space). At 40 Hz, there is plenty of excursion left, but that's not your goal. Bass takes displacement - horns do not change the amount of driver displacement available, they just make the most of what you have available, within their operating range.
The van was initially going to be 110 cubic feet but I had to build a rear wall before it imploded on itself. The IB3s were getting the side panels and roof panel, which independantly were extremely solid, to push and pull from eachother. Space isn't an issue.

Raising the knee ( OK, a complete redesign by you gurus) to 25Hz and doubling/trippling drivers.... what effects would the cabin have on the mouth? Right now the cabin is small... I ballparked 65 cubic feet once, ridgid, and the windows down are the only two two outlets, she's almost air tight... Id assume it would act like the mouth itself. Plus cabin gain would be serious if a horn would have similar gains as sealed/ported/bandpass does in-car.

/OT
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post #118 of 385
4/19/11 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
Try one and see. You might be surprised.

Be sure it is an apples to apples comparison though. Don't compare something like the Anarchy tapped horn with a single 6.5 to an 8 X 18 sealed or IB setup - that's just not a vaild comparison. You've got to look at something with equal displacement capability. As the driver in a properly designed horn uses less excursion to deliver the same SPL when compared to the same driver in a direct radiator mode, power requirements are lower, as are distortion products.

Within their intended passband, horns (tapped or normal) reduce distortion compared to the same driver in a direct radiator mode. With the design here, I've also incorporated a manifold with one driver inverted, that helps things too. I'm not done with the tweaks and tuning on this one yet, we've got to get accurate SPL and distortion measurements first (which is dB's day job, so no issue there...)

The key words here are "Within their intended passband". Outside of that passband - things go wrong quickly.
So you're saying in a dream setup one would have a horn for the bass and a rotary sub for the ULF? How large of a room would be required for a horn to be clean to 5Hz? Also, what about the time delay of such a horn? The acoustic pressure wave would take a noticeable time to propagate through the horn and out into the room, would it not? Also, the larger the horn, the more distortion gets picked up before exiting the mouth, does it not?
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post #119 of 385
4/19/11 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yelnatsch517 View Post
So you're saying in a dream setup one would have a horn for the bass and a rotary sub for the ULF? How large of a room would be required for a horn to be clean to 5Hz? Also, what about the time delay of such a horn? The acoustic pressure wave would take a noticeable time to propagate through the horn and out into the room, would it not? Also, the larger the horn, the more distortion gets picked up before exiting the mouth, does it not?
Not sure if I can answer all these, but I'll try.

Biggest thing here? Define an ideal system - one person's ideal is not the same as another's. Some are space constrained, some by appearance, some by budget, and some by skills. Some are not (or at least claim that), but there is always a limiting factor. Period.

Personally - above 20 Hz, I feel horns (tapped or otherwise) are hard to beat. In that range from 15 to 20 Hz - we're in into my personal compromise zone. Cabinets tend to get large and driver requirements tend to escalate too. Below 15 Hz? There are better ways. Bass takes displacement, and horn's don't add any to the driver. The driver's gotta bring ample displacement or the results are gonna be a disappointment.

A 5 Hz horn is a waste of effort IMO. To be honest, 15 Hz horns border on that. Primary reason? A single driver lacks the displacement to do 15 Hz properly, and multiple drivers in a horn will require enormous cabinets, so really, there is really no point going there. It simply is not practical.

Delay? Definitely an issue for some. Tapped is not as bad as a front-loaded IMO. remember, you can get away with a lot with a sub with regard to delay and phase, thing's you'd never dream of with mains.

Not sure what you mean by larger horns picking up more distortion. I'm no acoustic engineer, but that does not seem right to me.
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post #120 of 385
4/19/11 at 3:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
In that range from 15 to 20 Hz - we're in into my personal compromise zone. Cabinets tend to get large and driver requirements tend to escalate too.
Amen to that. As someone with a 700L (before materials) 16Hz tapped horn DIY build, I can tell everyone reading this one thing... I will not go bigger than that for a horn. Period. It was a chore just putting the one I have together.

The fact is, it's real easy to come up with impractically huge designs below 20Hz. Not so easy to do it in reasonable space... your driver selection choices dwindle to about a couple if you're lucky the lower you try to go. You just have to pick where to get off the trolley... below 15Hz I'm jumping off the trolley and running over to the bus station
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