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Nick's Homebrew Bar and Entertainment Area - Page 12

post #331 of 1235
Thread Starter 
Today my friend stopped by with a delivery of materials . He had to pass by my house on his way home from his cottage, so he offered to pick up the materials for my dead vents and HVAC boots. I really lucked out. One of the sheets of 3/4" MDF had a crack in the edge, so they gave him 50% off. With each sheet being $30, that was a great deal (especially since it won't impact the material I need from that sheet).



I really didn't have time (or help) to start cutting the dead vents, but I really had the itch (pun intended ) to get some work done in the theater tonight. I decide to start insulating some of the exterior walls. I didn't get a lot done, but it went really quickly, so I was pretty happy. A couple of the spaces were a bit narrower due to a double stud, so I didn't do those yet. I also haven't stapled the bottom of the insulation yet because I wanted to ensure that that each piece was cut to the correct length. I will go back and finish that later.



Obviously no noticeable difference yet, but it feels good to make some progress. It will probably only take a couple of hours to finish insulating the walls. Tomorrow is my son's birthday, so there will be a break in the action for at least one day.
post #332 of 1235
Nick:

Don't mean to rain on your parade, I mean to help. I have not been following closely so I am not sure what your wall assemblies are, but that looks like a basement wall. You have to be very careful to NOT put up faced fiberglass somewhere you aren't supposed to have a vapor barrier. Like on the inside of a basement wall. You'll have Holmes visiting again to get rid of the mold farm.

The insulation contractors will tell you to slit it where there's not supposed to be a vapor barrier, but I never trusted that method. YOu aren't lettign water out of a bag, you needing to let vapor transmit freely through wide open porus surfaces. Slits don't get it IMO.

Speak to an insualtion contractor (professional, who knows the science) for your climate. There used to be a good technical reference somewhere on the Oak Ridge National Labs site regarding proper wall assembly construction and where to put vapor barriers (or not), depending on your climate. I've got the books buried around here somethere.
post #333 of 1235
In northern climates, it's generally code to have a vapor barrier between the drywall and the framing and the kraft paper technically qualifies.

You do, however, want to ensure that nothing is pressed right up against the foundation walls. Nothing will help you at that point.

A better idea is to use rigid foam right up against the foundation. Then insulate your stud wall and use vapor barrier under your drywall.
post #334 of 1235
Thread Starter 
GetGray, better for you to bring it up now while it is easier to fix, but BllDo is correct, in northern climates it is code to have the vapor barrier between the drywall and the insulation - even in a basement. You always want a vapor barrier to the warm side of the wall, so in the north, that would be the heated side in the winter. In the south, that would be towards the outside since the inside is cooled in the summer. Now, for the interior walls, I will not use a vapor barrier at all - just plain insulation. I'm not aware of a situation where you wouldn't want the vapor barrier on an exterior wall. That would be the situation where you will get condensation and create mold.

In hindsight, I would have taken the extra time to do the rigid foam on the exterior walls. I now know that is a better solution. At this point, I am not going to tear out all of my framing since insulation with vapor barrier meets code. My basement walls are all sealed and I filled the cracks as a precaution, so I am not worried. I also have a minimum of a 1 inch gap between the concrete and the framed wall/insulation, so there is nowhere that it will make contact.

This brings up a related issue. I have found it very difficult to find 24" wide R13 insulation that is unfaced for the interior walls. Both Home Depot and Lowes said they could special order it, but they also said it would cost significantly more (almost twice as much) since it is a special order and it would be much easier to tear off the vapor barrier, I went ahead and bought the faced figuring I could use it in the rest of the basement if it isn't easy to tear off the vapor barrier. Has anyone done it this way? Is it easy to tear off the barrier without tearing apart the insulation?
post #335 of 1235
Understood. I didn't know what part of the country you were in (didn't notice MI in your sig ). Faced won't generally matter on interior walls as moisture isn't trying to move between those walls so it's moot. Unless you have some odd situation which is rare. Easier to use faced for installation ease. But your local insulation contractors can supply unfaced if you want it.
post #336 of 1235
Thread Starter 
I know it's my son's birthday today and not mine, but when I came home today there were presents waiting for me on the front porch.





2" conduit is really big, but it will be nice for running cables with large ends.
post #337 of 1235
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

As far as exposed lights, I had thought about it, but wasn't sure how to implement it. I really want something that is completely hidden, but easy to turn on when needed.

I assume you mean 'outlets', not 'lights', here. I can understand not wanting them visible, but you should include the additional outlets in your floor plan so you don't forget to install them when the time comes. You have them on the riser, but they will not be easily accessible after the seating is installed.
post #338 of 1235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerParty View Post

I assume you mean 'outlets', not 'lights', here. I can understand not wanting them visible, but you should include the additional outlets in your floor plan so you don't forget to install them when the time comes. You have them on the riser, but they will not be easily accessible after the seating is installed.

Yes, sorry about that, I did mean outlets. Thanks for the suggestion. I did some digging and see that is what others did as well. They aren't visible from the chairs, but are easy to access. I think I may add a few outlets at the front of the columns.
post #339 of 1235
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

I know it's my son's birthday today and not mine, but when I came home today there were presents waiting for me on the front porch.

I'm sure your son will love the carlon, I gave mine 300sq ft of dricore for his 13th
post #340 of 1235
Quote:


In northern climates, it's generally code to have a vapor barrier between the drywall and the framing and the kraft paper technically qualifies.

Correct, above grade in most areas a vapor barrier is required. In my part of NY a vapor barrier is not required. Kraft faced insulation is usually utilized because it is vapor semi-permeable. What little moisture gets in the wall can, in fact, pass through the asphalt impregnation, rather than getting trapped in the wall.

However, below grade a vapor barrier is generally not required nor recommended. The issue being there is typically no barrier on the outside of the foundation, so the concrete transmits moisture into the interior wall. With a vapor barrier on the inside, the vapor gets trapped.

R702.7 Vapor retarders.
Class I or II vapor retarders are required on the interior side of frame walls in Climate Zones 5, 6, 7, 8 and Marine 4.

Exceptions:

1. Basement walls.
post #341 of 1235
Yeah, I've seen here in MD, if the basement wall is partially above grade, they only put insulation on the top half off the wall. Pink fiberglass with the silver vapor barrier.
post #342 of 1235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

Correct, above grade in most areas a vapor barrier is required. In my part of NY a vapor barrier is not required. Kraft faced insulation is usually utilized because it is vapor semi-permeable. What little moisture gets in the wall can, in fact, pass through the asphalt impregnation, rather than getting trapped in the wall.

However, below grade a vapor barrier is generally not required nor recommended. The issue being there is typically no barrier on the outside of the foundation, so the concrete transmits moisture into the interior wall. With a vapor barrier on the inside, the vapor gets trapped.

R702.7 Vapor retarders.
Class I or II vapor retarders are required on the interior side of frame walls in Climate Zones 5, 6, 7, 8 and Marine 4.

Exceptions:

1. Basement walls.

So, does this mean I shouldn't have the kraft paper facing in the basement, or just a plastic vapor barrier? Also, the other question that was asked, can I use kraft paper faced insulation on the interior walls?

The JM website seems to indicate that kraft faced insulation is good for basement walls as well as for sound control on interior walls. I just want to confirm that I won't have issues if I use it on either.
post #343 of 1235
Thread Starter 
While I really like the HF work lights I bought, the bulbs really suck!! One of them has already burned out and I can measure the usage in minutes. Oh well. I still like them.

I buttoned up the bottom of the previously installed insulation and installed more. I have now completed the first wall and half of the next wall. I don't know that it is due to the insulation, but with no air conditioning on and the work lights blasting, it is pretty hot in the basement. Of course, wearing long sleeves and gloves doesn't help.

post #344 of 1235
Thread Starter 
I did some more digging and found my answers. I was confusing the kraft paper on the outside of the insulation with a plastic vapor barrier. The kraft face on the insulation is fine for basement use.

To answer my other question, using kraft faced insulation on interior walls is also fine. That is perfect since it is readily available at the big box stores.
post #345 of 1235
Just don't use plastic. Kraft is ok because it is not vapor impermeable. Code says you don't need it, but it isn't a bad idea.
post #346 of 1235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

While I really like the HF work lights I bought, the bulbs really suck!! One of them has already burned out and I can measure the usage in minutes. Oh well. I still like them.

Make that both bulbs. I came home from work a bit early today to work on the insulation and the second bulb went out. Looks like I need a couple of new bulbs.

By the way, I just noticed that Home Depot has the same lights in their ad for $19.99 for the pair. Worth it if you need work lights.
post #347 of 1235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

Just don't use plastic. Kraft is ok because it is not vapor impermeable. Code says you don't need it, but it isn't a bad idea.

I think some of them are meant to be quite impermeable and serve explicitly as vapor barrieris, basically tar faced underneath. Careful careful. Don't want to mess with mold.
post #348 of 1235
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the tip GetGray. I confirmed with the manufacturer of my insulation that it is OK for basements as well as interior walls. They told me there would be no issues. They have another product with a plastic barrier included.
post #349 of 1235
Thread Starter 
Made some good progress this weekend. I will spare everyone from most of the boring pictures, but here are the details:
  • I pretty much finished insulating the walls of the theater. I just have a couple more pieces that I need to cut to the correct width for the corners of the walls.
  • I started cutting the MDF for the dead vents. I got both tops and the two sides for each box cut. I will cut the bottoms after everything is in place (building them between the joists due to limited space).
  • Picked up the R19 insulation for the ceiling. My joists are 12" OC, so I bought 23" wide insulation and will cut it in half. I could have special ordered the correct size, but it would have been much more expensive. Both Lowes and Home Depot recommended doing it this way.
  • I started building the first dead vent. I am using 3/4" MDF for the outer layer and will line the inside with 5/8" drywall. The space is too tight to isolate it from the subfloor above and the joists on the sides, so I am putting a layer of Green Glue between the joists/subfloor and the MDF and then another layer between the MDF and the drywall. I began by attaching the top of the box to the subfloor above (temporarily holding it with screws). Then I screwed the two side pieces in place which hold the top against the subfloor. I then removed the temporary screws on the top to end up with a 3 sided box. I will caulk the corners before putting in the drywall. Finally, I will fill the remaining voids with insulation, lift the flex duct in place and put the bottom on the box.



My 14 year old son helped me lift the pieces of the dead vent in place. They aren't perfect, but I was glad he was willing to spend some time helping me with the theater. This was my first experience with Green Glue. I don't know why I expected it to be much thicker. As others have mentioned, it is a bit messy, but this box will be hidden, so it is a good place to learn .
post #350 of 1235
Quote:
Originally Posted by GetGray View Post

I think some of them are meant to be quite impermeable and serve explicitly as vapor barrieris, basically tar faced underneath. Careful careful. Don't want to mess with mold.

You should check each product, but generally kraft-faced is a Class II retarder. JM kraft has a 1.0 permeance (source), which is the same permeance as some latex paints. For comparison, poly sheet is <0.1 perms.

Don't mind me.. I find this stuff fascinating

Tim
post #351 of 1235
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

My 14 year old son helped me lift the pieces of the dead vent in place. They aren't perfect, but I was glad he was willing to spend some time helping me with the theater. This was my first experience with Green Glue. I don't know why I expected it to be much thicker. As others have mentioned, it is a bit messy, but this box will be hidden, so it is a good place to learn .

I did most of my learning on my hands.. my clothes.. in my hair..
post #352 of 1235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Tim View Post

I did most of my learning on my hands.. my clothes.. in my hair..

My son wasn't happy when he got a very small amount of GG on his hand. I just laughed it off and handed him a rag to wipe it off. Now, I wasn't laughing as hard when he tried to step up on the ladder and almost got his hair in it. My wife would have probably put an end to the theater project at that point .
post #353 of 1235
Hey Nick - looking good! Nice progress!

(And I am currently picking a little bit of GG out of my hair )
post #354 of 1235
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGiovas View Post

Made some good progress this weekend. I will spare everyone from most of the boring pictures

Boring pictures, no such thing. Especially when you are dialing into a six hour long IFRS teleconference. Bring on the pictures.
post #355 of 1235
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BllDo View Post

Boring pictures, no such thing. Especially when you are dialing into a six hour long IFRS teleconference. Bring on the pictures.

That gives me an idea... Maybe the next person to start their theater should install a webcam so we can all watch their progress live.
post #356 of 1235
Thread Starter 
The second half of this week is going to be pretty busy, so I decided to get as much done as I can tonight. The first thing I did was caulk the corners of the dead vent with acoustic caulk.



Above the beam that divides the theater from the rest of the basement are 2" thick boards to block the space above the beam. Since I had the caulk gun out, I decided to caulk the corners of these boards. The top corner not only connects to the other side of the basement, it is also the place that the subfloor for the family room above meets the wall. There have been a couple of times while working on a ladder I can hear people in the room above talking very clearly and it actually sounds like it is coming from this corner. I know that these boards are above the decoupled ceiling, but I figured it certainly won't hurt to seal it off.



With those two things out of the way, I decided to get started on the ceiling insulation. I have the equivalent of 24 bays to fill. Since I am cutting rolls in half, it is going to take some time to finish the ceiling, so I figure I will pick away at it each night. I am using R19 insulation, so I installed it 6-7 inches below the subfloor so that it wasn't compressed at all. It fits just right enabling me to staple it on both sides so it doesn't slide down over time. I was able to finish two bays tonight.



I started towards the front of the theater since I have some work to do in the rear of the theater before I insulate:
  • outlet for projector
  • conduit and cable for projector
  • thermostat wire
  • smoke detector wire

Just when you think you are getting closer to drywall, the list seems to grow rather than shrink.
post #357 of 1235
Thread Starter 
As I predicted, the last few nights have been very busy. I got home at a reasonable time tonight, so I decide to spend some time working in the theater. I figured a little time is better than no time. I completed two more rows of insulation in the ceiling and was able to cut and install the insulation on one of the remaining corners of the walls.

Not exactly a record breaking pace, but still moving forward. My goal for the weekend is to get at least eight more rows done in the ceiling which would put me at about half way. I also need to finish up my dead vents. I would like to have the insulation done by the time my diffusors arrive (which should be in a couple of weeks).
post #358 of 1235
^^ Aaah that is pretty much the story of my build. I'm changing the name to "the Some is Better than None Theater!" - welcome to the club!
post #359 of 1235
Thread Starter 
Feeling pretty good about my goal to get 8 more rows done this weekend. I got 3 1/2 done tonight. I still have a few more staples to put in each row, but I will finish them up after I get all of the insulation cut and in place.

I also did some planning for the wiring in the rear of the theater. I think I know where I will route the conduit for the projector. Plus I need to run the wire that will feed the sub panel through a few more joists. It is in the theater, but at the time I ran it, I didn't know exactly were it needed to be.

I hope to continue making good progress tomorrow.
post #360 of 1235
Thread Starter 
Final update for the weekend. I even took some pictures just in case BllDo needs something to occupy his time during a conference call tomorrow morning .

My first goal was to get 8 more rows of insulation completed. I got the 8 rows completed and decided to cut a few of the pieces for the rear of the theater. The joists in the rear go in both directions because the center joists are supporting a fireplace on the first floor. With this part completed, I am past the halfway point for ceiling insulation.



My other goal was to get the shell of the two HVAC supply line dead vents completed. Today I had help from both of my sons, so we were able to knock that out as well. I had cut the 3/4" MDF last weekend and got the 5/8" drywall cut yesterday. I got both shells completed (with GG between each layer) and caulked all of the seems. I don't want to put the flex duct in place and seal up the dead vents until I build the supply boots and know everything is in the right place. I also need to build a dead vent and boot for the cold air return in the rear of the theater.



I also ran the electrical feed line to the opposite side of the theater so that it will be in place for the sub panel. My plan is to build a mini closet that doesn't have a door, and put the rack in the front opening. The sub panel will be mounted in the outside wall of this rack/closet structure.

One of the other items I was thinking about while working this weekend was the gap above the outside wall of the theater (the wall that is common to the rest of the basement). Because of the isolation clips, this wall does not touch the beam above it. I'm guessing I need to go back and fill in this gap with insulation. I have plenty of cut offs from insulating the walls, so that won't be an issue.



I need to take care of some wiring before insulating the back corner of the ceiling above the rack area:
  • Install a phone line behind the rack.
  • Test the network cable behind the rack (was already exisitng in that corner, but hasn't been used in a long time).
  • Route whole house speaker wiring to behind rack. It was run to this area of the basement when installed several years ago, but needs to be routed behind the rack.

Most of this week is going to be very busy again, so I won't have time to work on the theater until later in the week, but with the progress I have made, I am happy with how things are coming along.
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