Official Sandy Bridge / LGA1155 for HTPCs Thread - Page 62

I don't want to go hunt for the right driver. I tried the one that came with the Motherboard, i tried the latest one (at the time), i even tried a version someone on some forum suggested related to the BSOD issue.

*All* of them crashed when Windows is installed as UEFI.
At some point, i just caved and re-installed it in BIOS mode, even though i didn't want to. Thats not my idea of a perfect driver.

With NVIDIA, i update when a new one comes out, and i don't remember the last time i had to rollback. Apparently with ATI that happens quite frequently judging from this forum (not much of personal experience over the last 2 years), and with Intel it seems to be somewhat luck, although it apparently has gotten better lately.


True, but with NVIDIAs custom resolutions, you can get pretty close. With ATI, you better hope its good, or you will never get closer. With Intel, the hardware issue in SNB prevents you from ever getting really close.
Intel offers similar fine-grained control as NVIDIA, so if their hardware issue can be remedied in the next generation of the PCH, it'll be no issue anymore.


Like i said, if you use WMCs default renderer, it uses the GPUs default scaling algorithm, which is fast enough. Didn't i mention that about the default upscaler, and wanting to control that? Oh right, i did!

If you use a more advanced renderer which offers a custom upscaling algorithm implemented in pixel shaders, the Intel IGP will work with 24p and 25p content, but 50p/60p is no longer fast enough.


Don't get me wrong. I do think that the Intel CPUs will make good HTPC systems, for some people they even might already. But some of the bugs in the current generation (be it hardware or software), and a still somewhat limited performance just don't make the "perfect" HTPC yet. IVB will be closer, and if it doesn't reach the performance level required for some advanced tasks yet, Haswell will.

I still haven't seen any objective proof that the advanced renderers give a much better picture compared to the default WMC renderer for normal 1080p playback (not interlaced which I agree can be different).

I tried to get people to post before and after pictures with Madvr in the sticky thread and I was completely underwhelmed with what I saw. This mirrors my own personal experience.

If you could point me to some side by side screen comparisons showing the difference I think that would be helpful and prove me wrong.

Edit: And like I said neither are perfect. I have never touted anything to be perfect.

Its not only PQ, its also smoothness. The PQ differences aren't day and night, but they are visible. It also greatly depends on the content. For SD, the improved upscaling would be more obvious, of course.

But the smooth playback.
I've never gotten anything to playback 24p as smooth as madVR+ReClock, and that i cannot capture for you.
MPC-HCs EVR-CP + ReClock also isn't all bad, but there still were some minor cases where it just didn't work right.

WMPs EVR without ReClock can be horrible, *especially* if the 24p doesn't match 23.976 exactly. WMP with ReClock will fix most of the problems, but it won't be perfect.
Ever since i watched whole movies with madVR, I'm spoiled, and once i see just one glitch, i cannot watch the movie relaxed anymore, i keep looking out for more glitches.

Same reason i never could bitstream. Bitstreaming disables ReClocks abilitiy to make the video smoother (or you trade it for audio glitches)...
But thats why i just developed a audio decoder that removes any need to bitstream for me.

I ordered the parts, here's a list for anyone interested. I was going for a lower-end HTPC system. Is this the right place to post this?

($78) Pentium G620 (Sandy Bridge)
($63) ASRock H61M-GE LGA 1155 Intel H61 HDMI Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
($32) G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 4GB (2 x 2GB)
($80) SAMSUNG EcoGreen 2TB HD
($58) SAMSUNG Black 12X BD-ROM
($55) APEX DM-317-A HTPC Computer Case
($42) Lenovo N5902 Remote\\Keyboard
($00) Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 (TV Tuner, already own)
($00) Win7 Media Center Pro 64-bit (free from work)

$408 Total

I wouldn't say that is the only open question. Ganesh found a few issues with the Lynx system he reviewed a while back, and I found some with the Brazos - including significant drift with 24p content that caused noticeable A/V sync issues.

My point is that we should wait and see. It's too early to call anything.

It depends on how you define "above".

IMO, Intel does a better job of doing it "right" OOTB; AMD generally uses the the wrong luminance for HDMI connected systems and does too much VPP. Also, in my experience AMD's drivers have suffered from significant quality issues: BSOD, no display when resuming from standby when connected through an HDMI repeater, "forgotten" settings, etc. were Intel's just work - albeit with more limited choice in how they function.

Both AMD and NVIDIA's higher end GPUs are a better choice for a renderer like madVR or gaming because Intel's GPU is much more limited in that area.

No solution is perfect, or ideal for that matter, but when I measure the trade-offs b/w the three solutions available I use an Intel GPU in my main HTPC.

FWIW, I haven't found this to be the case (BSOD) or isolated (HDCP) to Intel. Having used/tested solutions from each vendor I would say that generally Intel and NVIDIA have the highest driver quality for video, with AMD as an "also-ran". On the audio side I would give Intel an edge.

When SNB launched there were issues both with driver (UAC) and the HW for 24p. The driver issues seem have been addressed, but the HW issues (clearly) have not. Hopefully this will change with IVB, but I have not received any confirmation that it will.

You have a specific use case in mind, so you may not be biased to a specific solution your opinion is colored by the desire to enable that scenario (TBC, I'm not saying that's a bad thing, or that the use case isn't valid, etc. just pointing it out for clarity). It's clear that Intel's silicon allocation decisions don't met your needs, but I'm not sure that for someone with different use cases/preferences/goals would draw the same conclusions.

Get a 480i capture of a sporting event and compare madVR + LAVCUVID (w/ NVIDIA HW) to what you see in 7MC. The improvements should be obvious.

Did you ever install Win7 in UEFI mode?
Maybe its related to my multi-monitor setup, i never tried if it worked if i only enable the Intel - because thats not what i want.

Every time i reinstalled Win7, i tried again with the latest driver at the time. Every time, it BSOD'ed instantly when in UEFI mode, and forced me to re-install in BIOS mode. Luckily a base Win7 install is plenty fast.
I doubt there really is a downside in installing in BIOS mode, but its still something that a normal user wouldn't figure out so easily.

The HDCP issue doesn't affect me at this time, because i run AnyDVD HD anyway (and don't use commercial Blu-ray software).
The 24p HW issue is still a bit stupid, but if push comes to shove, ReClock could just fix it.

Only leaves the speed issue, which hopefully IVB will rectify. I'm looking forward to it.

Yes. What motherboard do you have? My only experience is with Intel branded boards (DH67BL/GD/CF and DH61AG) so it could be a vendor thing.

Never tried in a multi-monitor setup; definitely done it with a dGPU installed though. Do you have more than one display connected to your HTPC?

Did the BIOS default to UEFI?

This is with a ASUS Z68 board.

This is my main PC, and it has 3 screens. One on the dGPU, two on the Intel.
I got it first, planning to test the iGPUs capabilities - turns out it wasnt fast enough, so my HTPC still sports its few years old Athlon quad core.

I believe it preferred the UEFI boot option, yes.
But i'm not 100% sure on that.

AFAIK the HDCP issue is relatively isolated, and for those who do experience it (like I do with my Denon AVR) picking up a longer cable is a cheap work around. That said, I agree it's INSANELY annoying that they won't just relax adherence to the spec (or their interpretation of the spec) since we can't be talking about that much pad when 6 more feet of wire is all it takes to fix it...

I haven't found a perfect 24p solution. OOTB AMD's dGPU are closest, but still far enough on my system to have an occasional issue. NVIDIA can be tweaked to get closer but that's a bit of a black art to get perfect, and not w/o side-effects.

Me too

I wonder if the BSODs with the latest Intel drivers is somehow an ASUS thing. Both my ASUS boards I can't update past the 3/25 (25-Mar) driver w/o BSOD right at the end of the install (when the new driver is being enabled). P8H61-I and P8H61-M.

Intel with UAC disabled is pretty close as well.

I was under the impression that with the latest drivers it was no longer necessary to disable UAC? Is that impression incorrect?

You don't need to disable UAC anymore.

Since this topic is seeing some attention today, let me ask all the owners of SNB powered HTPCs something.

Does it suffer from the "Silent Stream Bug"?
In case you don't know what that means - does it drop the HDMI connection when there is no audio playing, requiring a new HDMI handshake every time audio comes on, losing 1-2 seconds of audio?

Mine does not. I had this problem with ATI on some drivers but not with NVidia or Intel.

All NVIDIA cards suffer from it. You must be doing somethign wrong.

Well I didn't notice it. I only used the NVidia 430 for a few weeks before I changed to my Intel i3 build.

Edit: Also the comment of "smoothness" is really interesting. Prior to madvr I hadn't heard even 1 person complain about this issue on AVS. I myself have never noticed any issues with smoothness on any of the HTPC that I have (3) or any that I have built locally for people.

I'd like to see a video of this problem posted on youtube or somewhere else so I can see it firsthand.

Mine never has.

I wonder if that is AVR/HDTV specific? For reference, I'm using a Sony STR-DA4400ES.

On some AVRs its more pronounced, because the handshake takes longer, but it should happen on all of them if it does at all.

I can probably hook my PC up to my receiver soem day to find out for myself.

Yes, but not as bad with the current drivers.

For e.g. using the audio config wizard where channel count is setup there is minimal loss for the left main (first) test tone using SNB, but it isn't audible with NVIDIA.

I experience the same. My AVR is Onkyo TX-SR605. It's busy handshaking during the first part of the left tone.

Yeah, hopefully we will be arguing about which one is greater Trinity or Ivy Bridge. I for one hope they both get all these audio video formats right, it shouldn't be this difficult.

Thats some odd behaviour though.
With NVIDIA, it loses the connection between each test-tone. I assume thats not happening for you?

My HDMI handshake right now is so fast however, that i only lose a very small part of the tones each, and its generally working properly.

The intel iGPU suffered for me. Made worse by the fact that my receiver takes an *eon* to handshake. I had to repeatedly click on the test tone to get any sort of response. Arcam receivers are known to be cr@p at handshaking though, so how much is HTPC and how much is receiver is difficult to fathom. Haven't tried with the NVIDIA, but I haven't noticed a problem in playback to worry about.

SBR

Not as far as I can tell (if it is, the renegotiation happens fast enough that I can't notice it except on the first one).

I just set up my PC w/ the ASRock H61M-GE, and everything installed perfectly. ASRock instant flash worked with no troubles. Flawless Win7 install (in UEFI mode, no less), pulled latest drivers from ASRock site (super easy to use, good job ASRock), then updated Windows. I'm getting perfect 1080p through my Pioneer AVR (VSX-921) and I'm happy as can be.

I messed around with a Bluray rip in VLC and was able to get 5.1 sound, but I'm going to have to install XVID and a few other items before I can test out bitstreaming via rips and my Bluray drive.

So far so good, I would recommend the board for an H61 build on the cheap. We will see how it holds up over time.

Thanks to assassin for the help with the build list.

Build:

Intel G620
ASRock H61M-GE
G.SKill 2x2GB PC1333
(Old HTPC case I had w/ PS)
(Old 1TB Seagate drive with Vista. Wiped the OS partition and installed 7)
(Old Hauppage WinTV tuner, yet to configure in new build)
(Lenovo bluetooth keyboard+trackball)

Wow, just spending a few minutes looking at sale prices, you could put together a truly full blown HTPC with that mobo and CPU, including an SSD, BluRay Burner, 1.5TB hard disk and nice case and PSU, for about $450. Pretty impressive. With only spending about 10 minutes I pieced together this system using current sale/rebate prices where available from a combination of Micro Center, Newegg and Amazon. If you shopped a little more or switched a few components (like an Antec Earthwatts for the Seasonic PSU) you could probably knock off a little more:

ASRock H61M-GE mobo $62.99
Intel Pentium G620 CPU $59.99
SeaSonic SS-350ET PSU $41.99
Crucial Ballistics Sport 2x2GB $19.99
Patriot Pyro 60gb SSD $74.99
Hitachi 5K3000 1.5TB disk $44.99
Silverstone ML03 case $59.99
Two 80mm case fans $20.00
LG WH12LS30 BD burner $69.99

Total $454.92

I'll go on the record and say that the build I have (with old hard drive and tuner) will do everything you could ever want for 99% of those looking to set up an HTPC. It's unbelievable how far things have come since I built my last setup (LGA 775, Core 2 Quad) 3 years ago.

Why would you buy a SATA III SSD only to cripple it on a SATAII-only board? The extra $10 or so for an H67-based mobo is an easy call, imo--especially since it also gets you USB 3.0 (which is also supported on your case choice). You could also leave the HDD out if you already had a media server in place.

Other than that, it looks like an excellent build!