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Very impressed with the new QEDO/compared with other chips

post #1 of 28
Thread Starter 
I will be editing this thread shortly. With a more detailed comparison.

I will be looking at the abt 2015 in the denon 3311, hqv realta in the denon 602ci, and the oppo bdp-93. I will also throw in my comparison of the flea nr vs qedo.

All i will say is i am thoroughly impressed with the new QEDO, quiet video is an understatement. Scaling is my favorite at the moment but I want to do some more comparisons.

I would love to get the chip in a vp solution. I was set on buying a pioneer avr with the qedo, but then i realized I would like Audyessy (glad I did) but I am very curious to see how the qedo would perform on tv broadcasts. It was also pointed out by blacklac, the pioneers just use pure cinema which I believe is pioneers own system for deinterlacing and nr, ect.. but use the qedo just for scaling only.

Anyway I will post a bit more but I am very impressed with it so far.

update-Post 19 has my conclusions/preference.
post #2 of 28
Thread Starter 
Well update numnber 1 sadly the NR failed to impress on other content. It amazes me how my flea I was hoping i could get rid of due to bugs still produces the best NR. What the qedo is doing is freezing noise/grain. Its often done by some movie encodes that people including me dont like. You will see frozen grain and softness in motion.

Compared to the flea however, the flea actually somehow eliminates noise, and at small settings no detail loss or smearing.

I used no country for old men and saving private ryan two heavy grain films.

There was heavy grain and i used fine details, a good scene is tom hanks scene of his face as he takes a drink of water on d-day. The qedo froze the noise, causing some minor smearing. The grain still in tact but frozen and quite bothersome in motion.

The flea however managed to reduce and remove a good portion of the grain while not removing the noticeable pore details.

All in all the flea is still the best for NR as far as i can tell.

On the bright side while I still need more testing the qedo is still my favorite for upscaling. I am actually using it for upscaling and the qedo for upscaling and the realta for deinterlacing. Realta has really excellent deinterlacing but qedo does as well. I just have not had to time to see how good qedo is compared to realta for deinterlacing. I hope to get to that next.

While the abt 2015 seems to do excellent on many cadences in real world i just dont like the artificially sharp image/ringing. Its deinterlacing is similarly sharp, but also lacking smoothness, cleaness, and depth the other two have. Its really quite shocking the differences deinterlacing between the abt vs qedo/realta. They look completely different.
post #3 of 28
The QDeo has been in a number of products since BD's inception so it is not new. The LG BH200 has it and I have always said i like the LG video just as much and maybe more than the BDP 83 from oppo when it first came out.

I still have to see the BDP 93, i bet it look s stunning.

Athanasios
post #4 of 28
Thread Starter 
First I apologize for spelling Qdeo is the proper spelling.

Im quite aware its been around in the lg blu ray player, various pioneer players. Although I am unsure if the lg was also fully implemented or just for scaling?

The point of my post is to compare all 3 since there is discussions which is best. I am lucky enough to have all 3 most recent solutions at my disposal. I figured the point of the thread would be fairly clear and to compare the 3 of them.

Also if the LG did use full qdeo implementation it was certainly not the newest kyoto g2 but the older version.

Later this week I will look more in depth at scaling and deinterlacing of dvd content. But so far i really like it. I just hope i dont find any issues.

It is softer at upscaling then either the abt 2015 or realta, but it does display great depth and clean image.
post #5 of 28
Will be very interested to hear your comparative results.

I have found that AVRs often don't implement the full feature set of VP chips, which is disappointing: the Denon 2310/890 output does not look quite as good as the DVDO Edge, even though both use the ABT2010 VP chip, because it uses a different chip for some of the functions.
post #6 of 28
i agree. my oppo bdp-83 was much better than my denon 4310 (which both had the same abt chip).
post #7 of 28
Thread Starter 
I read from neuromancer that oppo tweaked that chip themselves.

Would explain why it received better reviews then any other abt chip for scaling.

I will take a look at this tonight.


The Denon 3311 should use abt 2015 for scaling and deinterlacing. I am not sure what you mean Ian using other chips for some functions. You mean they used the abt just for scaling or deinterlacing, or..?
post #8 of 28
I have a lot of experience with VPs, and I have to agree that Qdeo 2 is something special. I already prefer my BH200 to my BDP-83, but I received a BDP-93 on Friday, and that is superb.

I compared the 93 to my 83 on Saturday, and the 93 is clearly better in all respects.

I compared the 93 with my A1UDCI on Sunday (my current PQ champ for stand-alone players) and it was a tough match indeed. I don't want to say much more at the moment.

Next I'll compare the 93's internal processing with 576i & 576p outputs (to isolate contributions from DI & scaling) to my video processors, which currently include:

DVDO VP50
Denon DVP602CI
Lumagen Radiance XS

This should be interesting, Nick

Edit: I should mention that I've been using 50Hz DVDs, which are more challenging than 60Hz. Maybe the BDP-83 works very well with NTSC, but it does leave something to be desired with PAL.
post #9 of 28
Thread Starter 
Very interesting. Will be highly encouraging to hear pal results.

Only draw back (dont know if i consider it a drawback) is the qedo seems slightly soft. People in the 93 thread are complaining about it compared to the 83.

I think its just a result of a very clean image with no artificial enhancement or ringing like the previous abt 2010.

What do you think.
post #10 of 28
I've been comparing the 93 with the A1UD and the Radiance, and in order to protect my own credibility, I will just say that anyone with ANY player/VP combo really ought to have a look at what the 93 can do. Do some people really think the 83 is better? That's not what I'm seeing. I'm VERY impressed.

Nick
post #11 of 28
I've basically gone through all VPs out there. I currently have a Radiance XE, a VP50pro and a Optoma HD3000 in my setup. For (good) DVDs I always prefered the 50pro over the Radiance. I'm using a SDI-modded Sony 999ES to feed DVDs into the 50pro. I've tried quite some integrated solutions as well incl. an Oppo 83, but they never quite reached the quality of an outboard processor - and even if it's only for enhanced sharpness controls or more manually selectable deinterlacing modes.

I should receive my Oppo 93 soon and I'm really eager to test what it can do with DVDs. Unfortunately it's a Code 2/B unit, so my initial test discs will be very limited unless I reburn a batch or until the codefree mod's out...

@Nick: both the VP50 and the Radiance never matched the sharpness of the later DVDO solutions (50pro, Edge, Duo) and the integrated ABT processors in players from Denon and Oppo also never had the defined sharpness controls of the last gen DVDO processors.
post #12 of 28
Interesting. I was a DVDO EDGE beta tester, but I was never that impressed with it. It followed a Calibre VantageHD processor, which I really liked. The Edge had great I/O flexibility and functionality, and the Vantage had great core performance, but the Radiance was closest to being ideal. Look forwards to hearing what you think of the 93.

Nick
post #13 of 28
Interesting thread. I'd like to see the Qdeo chip in a new VP. I don't want to get a new BDP for it. Likewise I'd like to see the sabre 32-bit DAC in a new audio processor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post


I should mention that I've been using 50Hz DVDs, which are more challenging than 60Hz. Maybe the BDP-83 works very well with NTSC, but it does leave something to be desired with PAL.

Truly interlaced 50i is pretty much equivalent to truly interlaced 60i so I wonder why should there be a difference in motion adaptive de-interlacing. For 25p film derived 50i (from speedup) I can see where it can go wrong but now we have 24p Blu-rays so the need to watch old PAL DVDs is diminishing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by welwynnick View Post

I was a DVDO EDGE beta tester, but I was never that impressed with it.

The Edge has since had a few firmware upgrades, maybe time to retest it.
post #14 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

The Edge has since had a few firmware upgrades, maybe time to retest it.

Unless the Edge added custom aspect ratio control, custom output resolutions, and other basic fundamental features that used to be standard in every previous model of DVDO processor until this one and the Duo, they're still useless to me.
post #15 of 28
Thread Starter 
I have not had much time to do comparisons lately unfortunately.

I did however email marvell to ask about a possible vp solution.

Surely vp is a very niche market however,

Riding the coattails of an oppo chip seemed to work well for abt selling the edge.

I would love to see the new g2 perform on sd cable.
post #16 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post
The Denon 3311 should use abt 2015 for scaling and deinterlacing. I am not sure what you mean Ian using other chips for some functions.
I can't find the reference now, but IIRC, the Denon 2310/890 uses the video input chip for noise processing (and maybe deinterlacing, although I'm not sure on that point) and not the ABT2010. The PreP, mosquito noise and edge enhancement features of the ABT2010 are disabled.

From practical comparison of the Denon 890 and DVDO Edge, I can say that the Edge looks more detailed and cleaner with SD sources, even with default settings.

I have found the ABT2010 to not handle PAL sources perfectly: there are many instances when it looks like it has the field order reversed, although perhaps that is the fault of the TV broadcast editing. Whatever the cause, NTSC is handled better than PAL.

I'm certainly interested to see if the Qdeo improves on the ABT201x chips in this regard.

It is a pity that AVRs often do not fully implement the functionality of incorporated VP chips and that media players (like the Oppo) can not input a full range of sources. I am left with no option to simply process all my sources with a minimum number of devices and minimal functional overlap with Qdeo (the Pioneer 1120 is not available in my country and I'm not convinced that it leverages the full power of the Qdeo anyway).

I would really like to see a standalone VP with Qdeo, similar to an Edge, since it best meets application flexibility. Better still would be a comprehensive I/O chassis allowing the modular addition of various VP chips.

VPs are becoming less necessary as the industry heads to full HD sources, however there will be a large source base of DVD, laserdisc and even VHS for some time to come, as not all material is migrated from earlier media. It concerns me that the industry is making it increasingly difficult to view these legacy sources on current displays.
post #17 of 28
I'm mostly watching SD channels which aren't available in HD.

I don't have an Oppo 83 but I do wonder if the sharpness I hear people say is due to artificial turning up the controls by Oppo. It seems strange to me that a chip incorporated into a third party device can exceed the performance of the parent component. On the other hand it makes sense for third party manufacturers to tweak some controls and disable others depending on the licence terms.

The Qdeo is a US company so again my previous concern expressed in the Edge thread applies about access to 50i material for R&D. So I'm not really holding my breath for any better or fault free 50i handling.
post #18 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

I don't have an Oppo 83 but I do wonder if the sharpness I hear people say is due to artificial turning up the controls by Oppo. It seems strange to me that a chip incorporated into a third party device can exceed the performance of the parent component. On the other hand it makes sense for third party manufacturers to tweak some controls and disable others depending on the licence terms.

The Qdeo is a US company so again my previous concern expressed in the Edge thread applies about access to 50i material for R&D. So I'm not really holding my breath for any better or fault free 50i handling.

Unless I am mistaken, Anchor Bay don't produce a VP for the domestic market, only VP chips that are incorporated into 3rd party devices. Therefore, there is no baseline to compare the full performance of the chip against 3rd party implementations. The Edge/Duo are probably the closest thing to a full implementation of the ABT201x features, with the Oppo BDP-83 a close second. Consequently I do not believe that a chip incorporated into a 3rd party device can ever exceed the performance of the parent component, only match it at best. Sadly, 3rd party implementations often come nowhere near even matching the full capabilities. I could not say whether this is due to cost cutting through reduced licensing, design considerations, or a desire to promote in-house functionality.

I think the "sharpness" you are referring to with the Oppo BDP-83 (and similarly the Edge) are simply the result of leveraging the ABT2010 capabilities of good deinterlacing, noise reduction and detail enhancement. In my experience, it is not sharpness per se, but a cleanness and stability to the image that allows the detail to shine through. It's not perfect by any means as it tends to generate ringing artifacts, but the overall effect is quite pleasing when scaling up to HD.

It is unfortunate that 50Hz material is still not handled as well as 60Hz, however I find that I seek out 60Hz material over 50Hz these days wherever possible, to avoid PAL speedup issues.

There would be known standard 50i torture tests for VP developers to use if they are serious about providing 50Hz support: I don't believe access to 50Hz material is an issue for USA companies.

I am eagerly awaiting comprehensive test results for the Qdeo in real life usage for both PAL and NTSC material, to see how good this chip is. It is unfortunate that the full featureset may not be leveraged in the Oppo BDP-93 or the Pioneer 1120, to really know what this chip is fully capable of, unfettered by 3rd party "selective" implementation.
post #19 of 28
Thread Starter 
Here are my last and final impressions at least for awhile. I am done testing my preferences, analyzing images.

For upscaling-Qdeo is my favorite. This is a no contest, it produces the most depth, very 3 dimensional. Clean, and looks better then the realta or abt 2015.

Deinterlacing-I have always believed deinterlacing has been highly overlooked compared to upscaling. They really should be looked at as equal in importance. Realta is my favorite, at least for dvd/video. I dont have qdeo to compare video deinterlacing. Of the 3 i really like realta deinterlacing. I stated before this is the best thing about my denon 602ci. Compared to a reon in my projector, and abt 2015 in the denon 3311, the realta produces the cleanest deinterlacing around objects while providing a very 3d smooth picture, while also being very sharp. Qdeo deinterlacing really softens the image. The abt 2015 really sharpens the image with crisp deinterlacing, but it also appears more flat and less film like then the realta. (others have noted this in the denon 602ci thread vs dvdo edge)

Conclusion-The best combination is upscaling to 1080i with the qdeo and deinterlacing with the realta. The realta deinterlacing really sharpens the qdeo upscaled image while still using the qdeo's clean upscaling. The image really is impressive for dvd. The qdeo when doing the deinterlacing really softens the image up, this is the only drawback for some.

The Abt also has excellent deinterlacing and some might prefer it when letting the qdeo upscale. It is the sharpest choice but also is a bit flat in comparison and not quite as smooth as the realta. The realta is sharp, film like, and has nice depth. Again deinterlacing plays a huge part in this equation and its often overlooked. With this said I think abt for deinterlacing and qdeo for upscaling is also an excellent combination. The biggest area I seen a difference in deinterlacing was for 1080i video. The realta really shows a drastic difference vs the abt especially in image depth. On dvd its more subtle.

Mileage will vary based on prefrence. Also the size of the display may alter one's opinion. On a projector its easy to see alot of faults. Also keep in mind implementation can vary as well.

I can safely say though, that is my impression when comparing all 3 based on my equipment.

I wont get into noise reduciton other then saying the flea is still my favorite and I cant retire that thing. I discussed noise reduction in post 2 as well. I am hoping oppo perhaps tweaks and implements more noise reduction for the qdeo. I am not sure if they fully unlocked the qdeo noise reduction. Sounds like the chip should have multiple nr choices and at this time there is only one slider.
post #20 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD View Post

Unless I am mistaken, Anchor Bay don't produce a VP for the domestic market, only VP chips that are incorporated into 3rd party devices.

Anchor Bay Technologies is the parent company of DVDO.
post #21 of 28
Thread Starter 
I would be interested if anyone can compare offerings from genum and lumagens own no ring scaling as well, dont hear much about them anymore. Are they still updating and producing new chips?
post #22 of 28
Right now I have a Philips BDP 9600 with QDeo processing on lease and I own a Radiance XS + VP50.

I'm in EU so as SD I mainly watch PAL DVDs and 1080i@50/576i DVB-T. The VP50 in forced "2:2 Odd" mode beats both the QDeo and the Gennum hands down deinterlacing them. With 2:3 material all 3 excell, maybe ABT is a little better with 2:2 (30fps) and mixed cadences. The scaling gold medal goes for Lumagen, next comes QDeo and last ABT (adds ringing even at "0" sharpness).

I have my DVD players and digital tuner connected to the VP50 for deinterlacing, it outputs same resolution as input but deinterlaced (ie. 576i->576p, 480i->480p and 1080i@50->1080p@50) to Lumagen which scales when needed and applies gray, gamma and colour correction.
My camera is broken so no way to get good pics (I have a crappy 60€ Sony if needed), short of that I can test any thing you want. I have the VRS and HQV discs (DVD PAL & NTSC 1.4, NTSC 2.0 & BD 2.0).
post #23 of 28
I've got the Oppo 93 a few weeks ago. Coming from a Sony 5000ES for BDs and a Sony 999ES with SDI (plus a VP50Pro) for DVDs. I also have a Radiance XE in the setup.

I haven't had too much time yet to play with the Oppo, but I found the SD upscaling to be nice. On great DVDs, both the Lumagen and the 50Pro are better as they bring out more details. On mediocre (or old or bad) DVDs though the Qdeo really shines. While the 50Pro tends to exagerrate compression artefacts, the Qdeo masks a lot of those and produces a smooth picture.
post #24 of 28
Does anyone have any real world experience in how the current state-of-the-art single-chip video processors like Marvell and ABT compare to dedicated video processors like the Faroudja DVP-3000 of 10+ years ago? I've had a DVP-3000 (list price in 1999: $20k) in my system for many years converting DVDs to 960p and displayed on a 108" screen by a good CRT projector (Vidikron Vision 2). One of these days I'll be upgrading to a high end digital projector, and I'm wondering whether DVDs will look better or worse than I'm used to. Besides the Qdeo in the Oppo BDP-93, I also have video processing available from the HQV Vida chip in the Yamaha RX-A3000. Any educated opinions out there on how today's mass market video processing technology compares to yesterday's high-end dedicated solutions?

-Lee
post #25 of 28
I have pioneer vsx-1325 avr with Marvell Qdeo vp. my tv is 50" and I watch it from a distance of 11 feet. When Qdeo processes the DVDs, I can see soft grains frozen for a second and then gets sharp, then gets frozen for the next second. I tried different noise settings and I cant get rid of this. is this normal ?
post #26 of 28
Thread Starter 
Do you have any nr turned on? The qdeo noise reduction freezes grain. make sure its all at 0.

If its not sounds like the nr might be turning off and on and something is wrong with the avr.
post #27 of 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murilo View Post

Do you have any nr turned on? The qdeo noise reduction freezes grain. make sure its all at 0.

If its not sounds like the nr might be turning off and on and something is wrong with the avr.

Thanks murilo. I checked and it looks like my source copy is bad. When I checked with another copy with all the nr parameters in "0", i dont see that freezing grains. But, i do see jaggies on the edges. So we can never use those nr settings at all?
post #28 of 28
Is there any good test dvds to check the quality of upconversion ?
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