Disney's WOW: World of Wonder (Blu-ray) Official AVSForum Review - Page 6

What Make & Model HDTV do you have?

I have attached a version of the focus / sharpness chart. This may be the Projector Focus Chart, I do not recall offhand, so it may look slightly different than the one you are looking at.

However, the area I am going to suggest you use is the same on both the Projector Focus Pattern and HDTV Sharpness Pattern.

What is suggest you use, is the area outlined in Red. Look very closely at this, in my case a distance of less than 2 feet from my Pioneer 50" KRP-500M, a 50" HDTV Panel. As you adjust Sharpness, you will see the edges of the horizontal / vertical lines begin to change. I typically use the finer lines as they make it easier to see subtle changes.

As you change your Sharpness setting, you will see the edges of the fine lines decay. They will shift from a clean solid line to a slight sawtooth pattern on the edges of the lines.

Once you see that sawtooth patter, you have gone to far. You need to back off the Sharpness just until the lines begin to have clean edges again.

That should give you the optimal setting for Sharpness.

I hope that helps.

My tv is a Sony KDL46EX620. It's a DEL tv.

Everybody say in this forum to look very closely to calibrate the sharpness. But when i do this i can see the pixel of the tv. So it's hard to know if what i see it's the pixel or the sawtooth patter. It's why when i change the level i don't see much difference.

Does it make a difference that I am playing this bluray from my computer? I can't get the contrast to work properly even at highest/lowest settings I cannot even see anything on the right side.

And for the one with the stars I can never see the "ideal" one even when turning it up or down. Is something wrong with my set or just the way I am playing it, or is this normal? Thanks.

Hi,

Depending on the computer, there may be a way to adjust contrast. If you see nothing to the right of the ideal star, then I would say it is an issue. It is possible, and within the range of normal, to not see any stars to the left of the ideal star in some cases. It all depends on how much headroom your display has.

My Pioneer KRP-500M and KRP-600M both clip white if I turn the contrast up to high. However, my Panasonic ST-30 will not allow me to drive the Display in to clipping.

Every display and the amount of control you have will be different. Without seeing it for myself, I would say that as long as you can see the contrast stars to the right that represent below ideal white, your display is probably OK.

I'm wondering if the reviewer or any users could chime in on how effective the audio portion of the calibration disc is.

I should be more specific. How does WOW work to calibrate audio compared to other discs? Or even compared to Audyssey? My receiver has Audyssey built in, but I'm struggling to get a good sound from my system (especially since adding a subwoofer).

Hi Woody,

I am the Creator and the Producer / Director of this disc. I can answer your questions as well as provide some advice since you asked.

I hate to offer advice here, as AVS is not a fun place to be if you have an opinion even one based on experience ☺. However, I am qualified to answer your question about products I have created, so I will do my best to help with some answers and recommendations.

QUESTIONS

What is the problem specifically you are having with your sound system? Can you describe the issues? What type of gear do you own? Where are you located?


DISNEY- WOW / AUDIO TOOLS

The Audio Tools on Disney WOW are Laboratory Reference Quality and comply with Industry Standards. They are extremely effective if used properly. The Audio Tools on the disc were created by a group of Audio Engineers I worked with during the time I was at DTS.

The WOW Audio Tools are designed to work with the SMPTE 200 Standard, which is 83db Reference Level. However, some folks choose to use them at a more reasonable 77db Reference Level.

You can use either reference level for calibrating. However, since I am an audio purist, I personally calibrate my system using the Professional SMPTE 200 Standard of 83db. However, fair warning ... it gets loud.

You can find more details about Reference Levels here:
http://www.digido.com/level-practice...-k-system.html


DISCLAIMER 1

I can tell also you in advance that most AVS Forum members tend to disagree with much of what I say. That is to be expected. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

However, all I can say is that my opinions are based on real world testing and evaluation with numerous professional engineers across a variety of systems over many years. I have been passionate about calibration, optimizing, and tweaking since I started in the audio industry at age 15.

At this point in my life, I can honestly say that I have demonstrated the results of an optimized setup, proper tweaking, and precise calibration to a wide variety of audiences going on over 35 years. I have also had these debates in the past and provided demonstrations many times over the years to non-believers.

Bottom-Line - Anything I am saying here can be demonstrated if properly executed. If you are a true audio purist and take the time to properly setup, tweak, and calibrate your system you will be rewarded with noticeably better picture & sound quality.


THEORY

I am old school and being an audio purist I strive to remove as much signal processing as possible from the audio and video path. The goal for me is to achieve as near perfect signal path that is not butchered along the way by signal processing.

The goal is to achieve as close to the ideal A Straight Wire with Gain theory. The difference is extremely apparent and the end result quite rewarding. However, it takes some work to achieve this and careful consideration when it comes to components, wiring, setup, and calibration.


AUDYSSEY

Regarding Systems I have set-up manually using precise speaker placement along with proper calibration and setup combined with a proper tweaks in a decent room always sound better compared to systems using the automated systems such as Audyssey.

Let me reiterate. I am experienced with the tools and procedures for proper calibration. I can get better results because of this. For the average user, they may find Audyssey improves their sound. An experienced audio engineer will typically rely on the best possible speaker placement and tweaking some room acoustics and maybe some parametric EQ ... which I also do not use ... to set-up a permanent reference system.

I have no idea what Audyssey really does to the signal, but it is clearly not as good as I can do on my own using proper tools and my ears. Again, this is based on my personal experience both on the studio and at home.


TWEAKS & GEAR

Proper selection of components & speakers is absolutely critical for best results. However, you can take almost any components & speakers to the next level by using proper stands and footers. These simple upgrades are one of the most important tweaks for best Audio / Video Performance. I have recommendations in this area but I can tell you I get most of all of my tweaks from Pierre Sprey at Mapleshade Audio.

Pierre is great and be forewarned, he is a rebel. Besides being one heck of a nice guy with a great sense of humor, he is brilliant. Pierre served as one of the Whiz Kids at the Pentagon. Pierre is the father of the A-10 and the Co-Father of the F-16 and has numerous technical achievements to his credit.

When Pierre retired, he started Mapleshade / Wildchild Record. Pierre produces some the best sounding recording I have ever heard. Pierre is probably one the best audio engineers I know of. I rank him in the top 1% of all audio engineers in the world. Pierre was always a tweaker and always offered freed advice to his customers. As time went on, driven by customer demand, Pierre started manufacturing and offering his tweaks to customers.

What I like about Pierre is that he is not afraid to disagree with typical engineering practices or theories. However, he can consistently demonstrate any and all of his claims that, in most cases, contradict traditional engineering practices or theories. In all the years I have know Pierre, he has never been wrong about one single recommendation he has made as far fetched as even I thought they might be at times.

I can get in to a more detailed discussion about this if you like. However, in summary, tweaking your system with simple upgrades like brass footers, wires, power cords, and not kiln dried but properly air-dried maple stands make a world of difference if you are seeking as close to perfection as you can achieve with your system.

For example:

My stereo is not all that expensive in fact the stands & tweaks cost almost as much as the stereo itself. However, every single upgrade to my system mad a dramatic improvement in sound quality. Not just to me, but to people who are far from audiophiles.


MY SUBWOOFERS

Most people do not have their sub setup the best way possible. The majority of subwoofers I have heard in a typical system have the placement in a less than ideal location, levels are to high, crossover is not adjusted properly, and the subwoofer is clearly not coupled to the room properly. Most subs sound like mud to me.

I use a specific type of sub, either REL or Gallo in my systems. They are brilliantly fast, transient, note accurate subs that excel with music, which is very important to me. I have found that setting my system up for music as a priority also produces a much better home theater experience as well.

The REL and Gallo subs built-in amps but they connect to the output speaker terminal of your AVR or Stereo. I run everything at Large in the AVR Setup.

I do not use the LFE input on the Sub for Stereo Systems, but I do connect the LFE Sub Input for Home Theater since certain information only shows up in the LFE Channel in a Surround Mix. This way I get a superior and more consistent low end even when the LFE channel is not sending a signal.

The REL is really nice in that it allows you to set LFE and Speaker Level inputs separately. This allows to me to dial-in the system in to the ultimate level of perfectionand I like and use that capability

Properly setup, a good sub like those ion mentioned, should couple to the room and simply disappear. The bass is tight yet very room filling it is one with the room so to speak. ☺



SUBWOOFER TWEAK

Now for the simple tweak. I have said this numerous times and it is absolutely one of the best tweaks you can do to your system to improve sound.

Sitting dead center in your listening position, take a measurement from your ear to L&R Front Channels. The distance should be identical for starters.

Then, place your subwoofer so it is NOT facing you. It must be facing 90 degrees facing either left or right with respect to your L&R Front Channels. The reason or this is simple. No matter where you cross over, direct radiated sound above the crossover point will make it to your ear if the subwoofer is facing you. This is something you want to avoid at all costs. Direct radiated sound above the crossover point will cause your midrange and high frequencies to sound muddy and you will experience deterioration of clarity, definition, detail and soundstage.

Finally, measure the distance to the center of the Subwoofer. I use the top front center of my sub cabinet as a measuring point as this represents the distance to the front of the subwoofer speaker itself.

You want to adjust your subwoofer so it is within 1 or less of the distance you measured to the Front Left & Right Speakers. I have it to 1/8 or less. The reason being is that I can still hear a subtle difference down to about ½ or so.

Once you have your subwoofer place properly, you need to adjust your Levels & Crossover. For Stereo I go strictly by ear and tweak without any sound tools. The results are stunning.

For Home Theater, I use Sound Tools and a meter to rough in the system. I do NOT use Audyssey. Once I am roughed in, I adjust the sub crossover and levels until I can no longer notice the sub. It must couple to the room and disappear. If I can localize the sub by ear in any way, it is not setup right for my tastes.

Most system I hear have WAY too much subwoofer dialed in. The delicate balance of highs, mids, and lows are destroyed if the sub is dominant in a system. If you are an audio purist like me, once you hear a system setup this way, you will never go back.

This process can take quite some time, but I have done this so many times now I have it down to where I can get it right within 30 minutes or so with a helper.

I have attached a few photos of my stereo system in my office to show you how my sub is setup in compliance to my description above. You will note that it is in the middle of the floor in the room. That is because this is where it needed to be for my stereo. However, in my Home Theater, it does sit nicely against a wall facing to the right.


DISCLAIMER 2

Again, all of this is based on my particular taste & experience. Some people prefer to hear a lot of bass. That is fine if this is what floats their boat. I am neither dictating nor am I suggesting people change there setups.

Different strokes for different folks as Yamaha Motorcycle ads used to say ☺

I hope that info helps. I am happy to help any way I can to get your system sounding better. Please feel free to ask if you have any questions. I love this stuff☺

Wow, awesome RBFilms. Nice read...

Going to try that sub tweak tonight.

Can't agree more !! I hate Audyssey. It averages everything which in the end makes the sound, well, average (or in many cases, below average). IMHO Audyssey have always wrecked the sound more often than improving it.

Would love to see this as I have been playing around with Subwoofer setup locations around my room (For now, opposing walls, subs facing each other).
Thanks!

Please let me know what you think...

Placement is easy to explain on the forum.

Dialing in the crossover and sub level much more difficult.

I am happy to help someone try this that is local to me.

I added the pictures...which I forgot previously.

I will take some photos of one of my HT Setups as well and post shortly.

Wow! Thank you, RBFilms! I was not expecting a response like that... I can't wait to start tweaking. It's amazing to see your commitment to not just supporting your product, but actually supporting the people who use it!

I think I've reached the same conclusion as David -- I think Audyssey is doing more harm than good in my system. I ordered WOW and picked up an SPL meter. I have a few questions specific to my setup (I don't want to derail this review thread into a help thread, but maybe this will help others as well):

1) I do not have a dedicated theater room. My setup is in my living room and the furniture setup is non-negotiable per the wife. This leave two primary listening positions -- neither ideal relative to the display nor the audio.

However, the bigger issue is my in-the-wall entertainment center that dictates display position and my in-the-wall speakers that dictate speaker position. The speakers came with the house. They are Niles Blueprint Series in-wall loudspeakers (MP525). They actually sound pretty good -- I just can't move them.

2) We typically listen well below reference volume: tv about -35db, movies about -20db, and music (usually just as background) about -50db. My listening habits are pretty evenly split between tv, Netflix streaming, music, and movies.

My receiver is an Onkyo TX-SR706. I bought a Klipsch RW-12D on sale from Newegg. I'm sure it's not dialed in as good as it could be, but so far I'm less than impressed -- especially for music. Maybe my expectations are too high, but I really want it to sound tight and it just doesn't. When I do get the level loud enough to hear/feel, it sounds like a discrete source and isn't well integrated with the rest of my system.

Maybe I need less sub? Possibly smaller duals to better fill the room? I come from the world of guitar audio where less wattage is ideal -- especially if you aren't playing on huge stages or at high volumes -- because the amp just can't move enough air to sound good. I'm not sure if the same theory applies to subwoofers...

I've attached a rough drawing of my room. How would you begin to setup and calibrate this room. Do I pick a location between my two listening locations and calibrate to there? I'm sure I need to make some compromises somewhere, but I'm not sure how to begin.

Thank you so much!!!

EDIT: forgot to describe the drawing. 1 & 2 are primary listening positions. A-E are possibly locations to put the subwoofer (although after reading your placement strategy, I'm more than willing to try others -- it just probably needs to be against a wall).

Hi Woody,

I have been a tweaker all my Life ... so I love this stuff...

My primary room, the one where I spend the most time watching movies, is not ideal either. I am not able to place speakers in the correct locations due to the room layout.

However, I have been able to make it work quite well despite the fact my less than perfect situation, and i am satisfied with the results. I think you can do the same.

You can see a diagram of my layout and a picture of my Pioneer KRP-500M, Gallo Front Channel Speakers, and REL Subwoofer attached to this post. I have since upgraded to a 60" Pioneer KRP-500M.

So, if your wife is flexible, you are fortunate. I see a few things you can do that will easily improve your home entertainment experience.

First, regarding your room layout. You do not put dimensions, so I will assume you have the physical space you need to do this.

Ideally, looking at your drawing, you would want to set your room up in the longer dimension if possible. That is really not possible due to the permanently mounted in-wall speakers, so you have to go with what you have to work with.

Albeit, running wires is only a matter of carefully opening up sheetrock walls, repairing, spackling, and painting after☺ I have ripped my entire house apart including walls, ceilings, and floors in some cases to get wires to where I need them. There is no way to tell that repairs have been done. It all looks as if it were pre-wired during construction of the house.

However, I am going to assume this will not happen..

I see you have a kitchen entrance and a dining entrance that may not allow you to put a couch in front of your display.

How much space do you have from your Monitor to your back wall? Can you place your couch in front of the Monitor? If you are able to fit the couch in front the display, I would do so. It appears you might be rather close to your monitor, but honestly, that is not a bad thing. My head position is about 9 feet in front of a 60 monitor and it works well for me.

Moving your couch to a position directly in front of your monitor will provide a more engaging Home Entertainment Experience especially since your speakers are currently setup to work best in this position. Of course, this will destroy any Feng Shui you might have going on and may look a bit odd, but it provide a better for your Home Theater Experience.

If this is not possible, then set aside at least a half day to do what needs to be done. The best thing you can do to improve sound quality, without going re-wiring and going crazy, would be as follows:

1 - Move your chair to the ideal listening position at least for the purpose of calibration. Ideal would be exact equal distances from your Front L & R & C and your Rear L & R. Having coherent sound at the listening position will still improve the overall sound outside this zone. I often sit outside of my space when guests are over and it still sounds good and tight no matter where I sit.

2 Check your AVR to assure your speaker distances are set correctly and that they are all equal and that they correspond to your listening position. I use an extremely accurate Bosch Laser Tape Measure to get my head position correct. You can use a tape measure as well if you have a helper available to you.

3 Set all of your AVR Speakers to large and your Sub to an 80hz Crossover Point. On some smaller satellites, you may find that Large does not agree with the speaker. You may have to experiment with this if you are using satellites that do not go below 80hz or so flat.

4 Turn off any and all settings that alter or affect sound. This includes all setting on your receiver and subwoofer that have anything to do with Processing the signal or an Enhanced Sound experience. It is all junk do not use it!

5 Your particular sub has a lot of controls and built-in EQ Modes on it that it should not have. However, if it were me, I would set your Sub to Flat and Music for starters and use this mode to calibrate with. You can then try re-calibrating with Movie and Night modes to see what sounds best. My guess is that Flat and Music or Movie will sound best. My money would be on Flat and Music for my listening tastes. I can already tell you that Depth and Punch will add EQ curves at 30hz and 60hz respectively, that will not be desirable.

6 - Calibrate using an SPL Meter to an 83db Reference Level for your Main Speakers if you can. If that is too loud for you, go with 77db Reference Level. You want to fill the space with sound to assure you are getting an accurate reading on your SPL. Based on your room, you will do OK using a 77db Reference Level if you cannot go to 83db so do not worry too much about this.

7 Before calibrating your subwoofer, adjust your level down to at least 50% of maximum for starters.

8 Then, make sure your sub is crossed over as close to 80hz as you can get it. Sometimes there is a mark on the control that indicates 80hz Crossover Point. If not, you will have to set your crossover by ear. I use music as a guide for this since I can immediately hear a dip or a hole or a Peak or a swell at the crossover point this way. The general rule of thumb is that less is more. Always err on the side of too little sub rather than to much.

9 - You will then need to adjust the subwoofer level control to 3 dB higher than the sound pressure level used during the speaker level adjustment section on this disc. If you find that the subwoofer volume control is set for maximum, you will need to reduce the sound pressure level used during the level adjustment test in the previous section by approximately 3 dB.

10 All of the above is assuming you have done the Subwoofer Tweak I mentioned with the Sub facing 90 Degrees opposed to you Front L & R Mains and within 1 or less from your ear when compared to your Front L & R Main Speakers.

11 Once calibrated, you have a final step left. This is the most important step and it takes the longest time as well. You need to listen to a lot of different sources both music & movies, to dial in the final tweak on your system I use things such as:

\tRon Wood Live at Ronnie Scotts
\tRay Charles (Monster Music Surround)
\tA Variety of Mapleshade / Wildchild Recordings in Stereo

\tBatman The Dark Knight (Especially the opening)
\tDances With Wolves (7.1 Version for My System)
\tKick Ass (7.1 Version for My System. Fun movie by the way.)
\tA Variety of Movies on 5.1 and 7.1 Surround


12 - What you are looking for is the most natural and seamless transition from your main speakers to your sub. There should be no noticeable emphasis on the low end. If you are noticing the sub over the mains, you have too much level dialed up on the sub.

Summary

Most system I hear outside of my home have way too much sub dialed in for proper overall sound quality. Too much sub will make the Mains sound muddy with poor definition and reduced detail. You will notice an increase in lower & upper mid range as well as high range detail and a better soundstage once you get the Sub dialed in properly.

In the end, if you do it right, your Sub will couple with your room and disappear becoming one with the room. Bass will just fill the space and come from all around you. There will be absolutely no way to localize the source and there will be no annoying boom, shake or rattle going on. You will simply have pure bass bliss that fills your space supporting the mains in perfect harmony.

Please let me know if any of this info helps in any way and feel free to ask me questions if you are unsure about anything I described here.

 

Basement Home Theater Specs - 1.pdf 464.4521484375k . file

You, sir, are a saint! Wow! Thank you so much.

To answer a few questions... room dimensions are 17' by 14' (the display sits on the 17' wall). We tried various furniture configurations, and unfortunately, this was the one that worked best - of course, at the expense of the home theater. Obviously, we can't block the kitchen and dining room entrances. The half wall between the living room and the kitchen is actually a bar with barstools on the living room side. Even if we get rid of the stools, the bar top overhangs into the living room by about a foot, making putting the couch too close a potential head injury. Any furniture in the center of the room makes getting to the back door very cumbersome and takes away too much of my daughter's play area. All that to say, we've tried, but I think the furniture is where it has to be. And, yeah, running wires and tearing up the walls isn't something I'm ready to do

A few questions and comments from me as I get ready to spend some time doing this:

1. If my center speaker is above my left and right speakers and my rear speakers are in the ceiling, is it okay that the measurements won't actually be equal? Do I just input the actual distances in the AVR or do they really need to be the same?

2. Do I also set the LPF of LFE to 80Hz in the AVR? Also, if I set my speakers to large, I get an option for Double Bass in the AVR. I assume I want this off. My speakers (according to specs) go down to 65Hz (the woofers are 5.25") - they should function okay set to large (or full band as my AVR calls it).

3. The only real setting on the sub (besides crossover, phase and volume) is EQ mode: flat, depth, or punch. I think they do exactly what you said - provide an EQ boost in either the lower bass or mid bass. Music, movie, or night are user savable presets, not modes.

4. When you say calibrate to 83db, does that mean I hold the SPL meter at the listening position, turn the AVR to reference level (zero), and then adjust each speaker (starting at zero) plus or minus dbs in the AVR until they all reach 83db on the SPL meter? I'm not sure where to "start" from in terms of the AVR and the listening volume to achieve 83 db.

5. When I adjust the sub level to +3 db, do I do that in the AVR or on the sub?

6. If I understand your subwoofer tweak, you recommend I put my sub in position A (on my drawing, but probably not quite in the little alcove), but face the speaker pointing toward position E. And then I need to make sure the distance from the sub to my ear is pretty much the same as the distance from my left and right fronts to my ear. Is that right?

Your advice is quite different than the advice I received on the subwoofer forum. Not to say anybody is wrong, but at least so far, the previous advice I've been given isn't working for my room.

Thanks again! Happy New Year!

EDIT: Here's a description of double bass from my AVR manual: "With the Double Bass function, you can boost bass output by feeding bass sounds from the front left and right channels to the subwoofer. This function can be set only if the “Subwoofer” setting in step 4 is set to “Yes”, and the “Front” setting in step 5 is set to “Full Band”. In the speaker setup screen, you can choose how bass information is distributed to your speakers only if you have large front left and right speakers and a subwoofer. * If you’re using THX-certified speakers, select “Off (THX)”.

However, if this setting is off, I don't get any bass from the mains or the sub.

ONE LAST EDIT: Would it be advisable to choose a primary listening position (for the sake of calibration) that is a point between listening position 1 and 2? The reason being, I can get 2 to sound pretty good calibrating per your advice, but 1 sounds pretty blah and is lacking low end. Would choosing a calibration point in the middle be a compromise that could make both spots in the room sound at least decent?

Ok, now I'm done for the night

Hi Woody,

Like I said, I love this stuff...so talking about it and sharing what I know is fun for me....

Here are my responses.

------------

1. If my center speaker is above my left and right speakers and my rear speakers are in the ceiling, is it okay that the measurements won't actually be equal? Do I just input the actual distances in the AVR or do they really need to be the same?

RBF Reply

You are not to worry about the Center Channel for the Subwoofer Measurement. You only want to measure the Left Front & Right Front Channels and be sure your listening position in dead center to each of those channels.

Once you are dead center with respect to the Front Left & Front Right SPeakers, only then do you measure the distance to the front center of the subwoofer speaker.

Bear in mind, your tape measure or laser cannot see the font speaker if it turned 90 degrees to the Right or Left. I usually sit a marker of some sort on the front top dead center of the sub cabinet and measure to that point. I typically use a small thin piece of wood that my laser measuring device and use as an easy target.

Also, if it were me, I would point the subwoofer in to the longer side of the room, towards the sliding glass doors. I always try to avoid pointing the sub towards a short wall or a corner if at all possible.

You center channel will not be the same distance to your ear from the Front Left & Front Right Mains in most practical cases. In a studio or a dedicated home theater, that is the way it should be. However, even in my own personal home theater, I have the speaker mounted on the same wall in the same plane as my FL & FR Mains. I then use the AVR to adjust the distance to my listening position.

It is very important to set the distance from your listening position to each speaker in your AVR. Try to get these distances as close you as you possibly can. The Marantz AVR I use gives me 1/10 increments for the speaker distance settings.


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2. Do I also set the LPF of LFE to 80Hz in the AVR? Also, if I set my speakers to large, I get an option for Double Bass in the AVR. I assume I want this off. My speakers (according to specs) go down to 65Hz (the woofers are 5.25") - they should function okay set to large (or full band as my AVR calls it).

RBF Reply

Yes, I set the AVR and to 80hz. The sub I also set to 80hz to start, but dial it in and fine tune by ear in the end.

Based on what you are telling me, you should set your Front Channels to large in the AVR. However, I found that my side channels, which are Gallo A'Diva Ti speakers, did sound better when tested with music set to small. You may have to experiment with this a bit on the rear channels. Use a good surround music disc that consistently uses the rear channels, not a movie, to test this.

My Gallo Reference Strada main speakers go down 45hz. I still cross over at 80hz. I want the sub to do the work it was designed for. Also, you do not want the mains reproducing anything below 80hz as it will reproduce sound in that range when coupled with the subwoofer. This will create peaky bass and muddy sound.

Yes, I would turn off off double bass.


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3. The only real setting on the sub (besides crossover, phase and volume) is EQ mode: flat, depth, or punch. I think they do exactly what you said - provide an EQ boost in either the lower bass or mid bass. Music, movie, or night are user savable presets, not modes.

RBF Reply

You want the best flat response possible without any EQ or Enhancements. I would go with "FLAT" and "MUSIC" first. You can then try "MOVIE" next ... test with music to get the best read on what is happening and what sounds best. At lest for my tastes, if I get get my system sounding great with music, it will sound awesome with movies.


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4. When you say calibrate to 83db, does that mean I hold the SPL meter at the listening position, turn the AVR to reference level (zero), and then adjust each speaker (starting at zero) plus or minus dbs in the AVR until they all reach 83db on the SPL meter? I'm not sure where to "start" from in terms of the AVR and the listening volume to achieve 83 db.

RBF Reply

83db will be LOUD....! This is the level I use to calibrate not for listening. For a Home Theater you can get away with less ... 77DB works if you cannot achieve 83db comfortably. Some folks use 75DB.

Listening at 83db will give you peaks at 105db which is WAY too loud when sitting 8 feet form your speakers in a small room.

I get to 83DB by turning up my volume ... typically you will have to past 0 reference on the AVR to get there. I only use this level to calibrate so I am "saturating" the room with Pink Noise. I feel that can get a good, honest, and accurate reading from each speaker this way.

There are so many variables when it comes to playing around with your AVR Reference level such as AVR Power, Speaker Efficiency, AVR Headroom, etc.

For that reason, I do not change my AVR Reference level settings. Many Home Theater AVR's use 75db as their reference level. THX receivers may be different and might be set higher.

I typically just turn my volume level up to achieve the level I need to set each speaker equally in my system. You want to assure each speaker has similar output levels for reference playback. This is the primary purpose of using the Pink Noise and an SPL Meter.

Make sure you use the Speaker Phase Test on Disney WOW as well to assure all your speakers are in phase.

You also want to make sure you Subwoofer is in phase. Mine has a switch to go back and forth between in-phase and out of phase. It is easy to tell which is in-phase because your sub will sound louder or have more output when it is in-phase.

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5. When I adjust the sub level to +3 db, do I do that in the AVR or on the sub?

RBF Reply

You can do it either way as long as it is plus +3 on the meter. I typically have a helper so have them turd the the control on my subwoofer until it is at +3 on my meter.

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6. If I understand your subwoofer tweak, you recommend I put my sub in position A (on my drawing, but probably not quite in the little alcove), but face the speaker pointing toward position E. And then I need to make sure the distance from the sub to my ear is pretty much the same as the distance from my left and right fronts to my ear. Is that right?

RBF Reply

DO NOT put in in the alcove near "A" or near that "A" corner at all.

In your setup, I would put the sub to the left of your HDTV Panel under the Front Left speaker facing towards "E" or the sliding glass doors.

Look very carefully at the drawing I attached. Follow the blue lines from my listening position to the speakers. You will notice that the very Front Top Dead Center of my Sub is the exact same distance to my ears as the Front Left and Front Right Speakers.

I cannot measure to the front center of the speaker from my listing position, so I use the Top Front Dead Center of the Sub Cabinet as my measuring point. You can see this in my drawing attached. That is the correct way for this type of setup...

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Your advice is quite different than the advice I received on the subwoofer forum. Not to say anybody is wrong, but at least so far, the previous advice I've been given isn't working for my room.

RBF Reply

Great ... I like hearing that. I would be curious how this works out if you do it exactly the way I described. Let me know. ...

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EDIT: Here's a description of double bass from my AVR manual: "With the Double Bass function, you can boost bass output by feeding bass sounds from the front left and right channels to the subwoofer. This function can be set only if the “Subwoofer” setting in step 4 is set to “Yes”, and the “Front” setting in step 5 is set to “Full Band”. In the speaker setup screen, you can choose how bass information is distributed to your speakers only if you have large front left and right speakers and a subwoofer. * If you’re using THX-certified speakers, select “Off (THX)”.

However, if this setting is off, I don't get any bass from the mains or the sub.

RBF Reply

I would leave this off....especially if you cannot adjust the amount of bass signal going to the sub from this setting. It is a disaster if it just feeds what it wants to the sub. You MUST have control over the amount of signal to even remotely consider using this option.

When you are ready to upgrade your Sub, I highly recommend you get an REL Subwoofer.

The REL Sub allows you to use your main speaker terminals to drive the sub with signal via speaker wires to drive the REL Amp. This is VERY helpful and mandatory with music as all Stereo and most PROPERLY mixed Surround Music discs will not use the LFE Channel at all.

The REL allows you to adjust and control the drove level from the amp which is critical ... for critical listening....

You also send the REL the LFE Signal at the same time via the RCA input.

This type of controlled setup provides you with signal that is NOT in the LFE Channel and gives you a very nice full range sound no matter what you are listening to.

The REL Subs are also very tight, fast and accurate. They do not boom, bloom, or get flabby on the low end.

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ONE LAST EDIT: Would it be advisable to choose a primary listening position (for the sake of calibration) that is a point between listening position 1 and 2? The reason being, I can get 2 to sound pretty good calibrating per your advice, but 1 sounds pretty blah and is lacking low end. Would choosing a calibration point in the middle be a compromise that could make both spots in the room sound at least decent?

RBF Reply

You should be getting great bass no matter where you are in the rom if it is done the way I described. I am not sure why you are getting poor bass response in other areas.

The sub should couple to the room and the bass should fill the room and not be localized in any way if the setup is done properly.

My gut instinct is that you will end up with a confused sound stage if you compromise the listening position for calibration purposes.

Like I said, I am calibrated to my listening position and my system sounds great even when I sit outside of the sound stage off to the side.

I would not compromise your listening position for calibration purposes. I think you will end up with poor sound in both locations that way.

Try it exactly the way I described for starters and listen in to it for several days before making any changes that you think might work better. You must listen to the setup for days with a variety of materials before going off and doing something different. Listen to quality, not the quantity, of the bass. Listen to the detail and imaging in the midrange and high end. Listen in the ideal position and the less than ideal everyday positions where you normally watch TV. Once you are accustomed to a properly calibrated sound system, you will quickly notice the difference when something is changed.

Please let me know how it all works out.

 

Basement Home Theater Specs - 1.pdf 464.4521484375k . file

So, I'm still tweaking away (and WOW should be here tomorrow). But here are two questions I'm struggling with:

You said: "My Gallo Reference Strada main speakers go down 45hz. I still cross over at 80hz. I want the sub to do the work it was designed for. Also, you do not want the mains reproducing anything below 80hz as it will reproduce sound in that range when coupled with the subwoofer. This will create peaky bass and muddy sound."

In my AVR, I can't really set my speakers to large -- I can either cross them over or set them to full range. I think that term means the same thing, but at full range I'm not setting a crossover for my speakers, right?

You also said: "Yes, I would turn off off double bass."

I agree, and would like to, but I don't get any bass when listening to music if it's off. I think it's an issue with a Windows setting (did I mention I'm running an HTPC?). I'll continue to tinker.

But the good news... I did a quick rough in... and my system sounds infinitely better. The sub bumps like it should. It shakes the couch during movies. I still have a lot of work to do, but so far it's like night and day just following a few tweaks from you. Thanks again!!!

RBFilms,
I was reading your sub tweak. If I do that the sub will face my FR speaker is that OK. Please see picture. Where are you located in CA.

In my AVR, I can't really set my speakers to large -- I can either cross them over or set them to full range. I think that term means the same thing, but at full range I'm not setting a crossover for my speakers, right?

RBF Reply

Yes, set to full range and cross over at 80hz in the AVR.

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You also said: "Yes, I would turn off off double bass." I agree, and would like to, but I don't get any bass when listening to music if it's off. I think it's an issue with a Windows setting (did I mention I'm running an HTPC?). I'll continue to tinker.

RBF Reply

Yes, I assumed that would happen. Can you control the amount of "level" going to the sub from the "Double Bass" at all? Is there a setting or control?
If so, then you can use this without an issue.

If not, then I would suggest you set the level using music and not a movie. Music will give you a better overall sound even for Movies if done properly. I always use music to set-up my system.

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But the good news... I did a quick rough in... and my system sounds infinitely better. The sub bumps like it should. It shakes the couch during movies. I still have a lot of work to do, but so far it's like night and day just following a few tweaks from you.

RBF Reply

Glad to hear it is working.

The best systems I have heard or calibrated myself never make the bass overly present or dominant.

The bass should just roll out and fill the room without being localized, boxy, muddy, or boomy and it should not thump.

Also, a thump sound may indicate a potential peak resonance ... typically at frequency close to your crossover point.

Peaks at higher frequencies closer to 80hz thump or sound boxy ... peaks at lower frequencies tend to boom or sound muddy.

If you are getting a thump, you need to keep tweaking. Work that sub to 1" or less difference form your ear, then move it a half inch in each direction from center until you hear the bass "couple" with the room.

Coupling of the sub to the room sounds the opposite sound of what you might expect. The bass will actually drop a bit in perceived volume and the sub cabinet will "disappear" so to speak ... the bass will actually become more expansive .... filling the room with sound.

Done properly, the peaks will flatten out and the bass will image beautifully with the system. For example, when listening to music, you will not even be aware there is a sub because all bass is imaged in the stereo sound stage.

Try turning down your level down a bit as well. Less is more when it comes to bass and balancing your system. Most folks tend to go a bit heavy on the sub woofer level control.

Try tweaking your sub level until music sounds great...with very tight, defined bass....no thump or mud. The bass should sound clean and articulate.

Get it to this point first and listen to movies this way for a few days. Also, listen to the upper midrange, midrange, and highs. You will notice an overall clarity and definition you have not heard before.

I do not think you are a bass junkie .... or you would not be working so hard to get better sound. However, once you have heard your system balanced, you can turn up your sub level a bit and see what the difference is between a balanced sound and an overly dominant sub.

My guess is you will prefer the more balanced sound based on what you have said and your motivation to tweak your sound. However, some people just love their bass...to each his own. I personally cannot listen to system that sound this way...but that is me...everyone is different...

I guess I am spoiled by reference studios and mastering labs. I know what it is supposed to sound like because I hear it when the film and/or music is being mixed or mastered. Once you get used to hearing things the way they are supposed to sound, there is other way. I am spoiled I guess..

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Facing the speaker is not as much of a concern as facing in to a corner like that. If there is a way to put the sib on the other side and face it in to the longer end of the room, that would be better.

Is that possible in your setup?

If you look at the picture of my room where would you put the sub thanks.

What does the rest of the room look like?

You can place the sub anywhere along the circular speaker arc as shown in the illustration attached. Make sure the sub driver is facing away from your ear by at least 90 Degrees. Facing the Sub away from a wall or corner is best.

Please excuse the crude drawings and mis-spelled words. I did this in a rush.

If I set any crossover for my speakers in my AVR, it disables double bass. Basically, I can set a crossover OR I can set the speakers to full range, but not both. I set the crossover at 80.

Thanks for the advice and for helping me out! You're right -- I'm not a bass junkie, I do want a balanced sound that just fills the room with low end for both music and movies. I'm getting close!

The one difficulty I'm having is placing my subwoofer. I can't get it within 1" without putting it in the middle of the room -- a location the wife does not approve of. I need to make a concession in this regard. Should I place it along the right wall facing the sliding glass door (it would be much closer to the 1" mark) or should I place it along the left wall facing the right wall (this would be further away, but seems to be a better overall placement in terms of sound quality)?

I just don't have the room to move the sub that much. The right side of room has a sliding door and left side has a chair. I've included a picture of the room and sub facing the speaker or I could turn it the other way. The room opens out to my kitchen. Thanks for taking your time to help me out.

Tough Room ... often a limitation when it comes to Home Theater setups.

I would try leaving the sub where it is and facing it to the left ... towards your equipment rack. You can try it both ways but my instinct is that facing towards your equipment rack will work better.

However, your gear is not mounted properly to minimize the vibrations that travel through the floor or radiated directly by the drivers. This will impact both sound and picture quality.

Jitter is the enemy of digital ... and reducing jitter to get the best time aligned signal from source to final output is critical for absolute optimal performance.

I highly recommend at a minimum that you isolate your sub with a maple wood platform and brass footers.

Next, if you really want a tweak that works I would get a better equipment rack and isolate all of the gear with brass footers.

You can get all of this from Mapleshade Audio. They provide a ton of free advice to customers and offer a 30 day money back guarantee on anything you do not feel improves your sound. There is no risk involved in trying it outside of maybe some shipping costs.

Let me know how the sub tweak works for starters. I have personally demonstrated this technique to many people. It works to improve sound 100% of the time if done properly and you know what to listen for.

Hi Richard - I've been reading through this thread with great interest and wanted to thank you for your active participation and continued contribution. Even when explaining calibration elements not directly related to my specific setup, I still find it an informative read.

I had a question regarding the proper mode to set my TV to achieve optimal display (and calibration) results. This may seem a tad long-winded, so bear with me

I have a Philips model PFL5505 LCD, which has an option to switch between "HDTV" and "PC" mode. As far as I can tell (and this simply my best guess), the TV only displays RGB values between 16-231 when in PC mode (more or less) i.e. regardless of the contrast or brightness settings.

In "HDTV" mode, however, a wider color range is displayed, in that it is possible to see all the 'shapes' when viewing the advanced brightness chart i.e. the objects darker than ideal black can be made visible. Viewing the advanced contrast chart, it's also possible to see all objects with both positive and negative contrast values. The color and tint can also be adjusted, whereas these settings aren't available in PC mode. The challenge I have is when properly calibrated to produce ideal results using the advanced contrast and brightness charts, I find the picture exceedingly bright (contrast is set to 100, brightness is 84) - it almost looks like torch mode at a retail store. I can dial this down, of course, at the expense of a less-than-ideal calibrated image, at which point it becomes somewhat pointless to use the disc if I'm simply "eyeballing" it to what looks good to me.

In PC mode, it doesn't seem to matter too much what I set the brightness - it almost becomes a matter of preference.

I personally prefer PC mode, but I wanted to ask which mode you think produces the most ideal result?

Hi,

HDTV mode is clearly the correct Mode for HDTV, BD, DVD, and any Netflix, VUDU, or HULU Streaming.

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First, turn off all Auto Yuck on your HDTV Panel. This includes anything with names such as:

Set all of these Off:

Dynamic Contrast
Digital Natural Motion
DNR
Color Enhancement
Active Control
Picture Modes

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If you have setting such as these, you may want to try turning them on:

Set all of these On:

Clear LCD
Digital Contrast
120hz *

* You can experiment with this to if it provides better results on motion playback. This is primarily related to how motion looks on your HD Panel.

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You may want to set this to Standard Mode:

Digital Processing

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Next, put a Monochrome B&W Pattern from the WOW Disc up on you screen. To find the best color temperature and Picture Mode for calibration, look for the modes that give you the most accurate B&W Image with no coloration, no color shading, no color tints or overtones.

Typically, Warm 2 and Cinema work best on most HDTV Panels. However, some use different names or work best with different modes.

On a Philips HDTV, you might find the following settings:

Picture Mode : Personal
Color Temperature : Warm
Aspect Ratio : Wide Screen

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Then, try using the Beginner Patterns on WOW to calibrate your Brightness & Contrast.

Then, proceed to Advanced Patterns to set Color, Tint, Aspect Ration, and Sharpness.

Once calibrated, check overall Picture Quality and see if it looks very good to you. If so, you are done.

The advanced patterns are slightly more accurate but they can also be a bit more subjective.

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Let me know if this works for you.

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Richard,

Your participation in this thread is outstanding and its one of the reasons why the "WOW" disc has become my "go to" recommendation when someone is looking for a calibration disc. I was on a Home Theater related podcast this week and gave it a plug: http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/93

Great job!

Thanks for the suggestions, Richard