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post #121 of 1242
Two items...
  • Let's see what the bit rates are for High-HD and X-High-HD.
  • When 1080p was mentioned (not really by Netflix) the PS3 began upscaling everything to 1080p.
post #122 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Two items...
  • When 1080p was mentioned (not really by Netflix) the PS3 began upscaling everything to 1080p.

As I recall, it was Sony making all the noise about 1080i/p, not Netflix, and if I'm not mistaken, the Netflix announcement primarily talked about the shift from disc to a disc-less version of the PS3 app. I believe it was Sony that talked up the DD+ audio as well, not Netflix.
post #123 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

As I recall, it was Sony making all the noise about 1080i/p, not Netflix, and if I'm not mistaken, the Netflix announcement primarily talked about the shift from disc to a disc-less version of the PS3 app. I believe it was Sony that talked up the DD+ audio as well, not Netflix.

The VP of product development at Netflix claims that the streaming is 1080p.
http://blog.netflix.com/2010/10/wii-...disc-free.html

The netflix press release announcing DD+
http://netflix.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=372

Granted, these aren't proof of anything. But it does clarify that netflix is indeed officially claiming 1080p and DD+. And yeah, the case for 1080p isn't helped by the fact that nobody is able to decode the DD+ yet and that the PS3 is currently limited to just plain DD.

So they officially announced 1080p. They've tweeted bandwidth requirements specifically for 1080p. They've tweeted that x-high-hd is 1080p. And the ps3 will only play x-high-hd when set to 1080p output. Finally, some people have posted pictures allegedly showing 1-pixel wide detail.

In all, this is a convincing amount of evidence and my doubt of 1080p is now nearly non-existent.
post #124 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

As I recall, it was Sony making all the noise about 1080i/p, not Netflix, and if I'm not mistaken, the Netflix announcement primarily talked about the shift from disc to a disc-less version of the PS3 app. I believe it was Sony that talked up the DD+ audio as well, not Netflix.

They state it clearly in this Netflix blog entry announcing discless players for PS3 and Wii:
Quote:


There is even more good news for PS3 owners: starting today you'll be able to instantly watch some movies and TV shows in 1080p high definition with Dolby 5.1 channel surround sound.

Statements made in that blog might just as well have been made in a press release--I googled that sentence and it's been quoted by possibly hundreds of tech blogs.

It wouldn't be politic for Netflix to make a big flashy deal out of a feature of one OEM partner's Netflix streaming player which others don't have. Sony did quite a good job spreading the word .
post #125 of 1242
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

So basically, it seems that your doubt of 1080p really rests on not personally perceiving a difference. Though I would agree that there is not always a significant or perhaps even perceivable difference.

Well if it is 1080p and yet looks no better than 720p, then where is the benefit in this other than advertising?
post #126 of 1242
What I find interesting is well before the 5.1/1080p announcement the PS3 was streaming around 8Mbps or higher... back when you could display the bit rate. Clearly these weren't 1080p so what's changed if they are in fact streaming 1080p? If you take their tweet at face value you need 8Mbps for 1080p. Unless they are using a much more efficient encoding method (remember 5.1 requires more bandwidth as well) where does the increased detail come from?

Also there are two camps...
  • One that wants to declare native 1080p titles exists
  • One that wants to see a superior image because of 1080p
post #127 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Well if it is 1080p and yet looks no better than 720p, then where is the benefit in this other than advertising?

Please note that nobody here is saying that there is a benefit for those who perceive no difference.

Obviously it is only a benefit to those who do perceive a difference.
post #128 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

What I find interesting is well before the 5.1/1080p announcement the PS3 was streaming around 8Mbps or higher... back when you could display the bit rate. Clearly these weren't 1080p so what's changed if they are in fact streaming 1080p? If you take their tweet at face value you need 8Mbps for 1080p. Unless they are using a much more efficient encoding method where does the increased detail come from?

I too have been pondering this. My guess is that my memory of high bitrates were actually spikes in the bitrate. Or perhaps the ps3 was displaying the max momentary bitrate from a recent time period. I do remember seeing 7+ Mbps on a regular basis. Yet thinking back, I also remember much lower numbers, typically on low detail scenes without much motion. It seems likely that these averaged out to the quoted bitrates. If the PS3 had a similar bitrate readout today, it would likely exceed 10Mbps+ at times. I haven't yet had the opportunity to monitor this on a router and confirm. Any volunteers?

Previously I was of the opinion that bitrates had risen even further than the quoted 8Mbps (which includes headroom). People here are very persuasive to the contrary. Although I too still feel like we don't know the whole story yet. Lack of hard evidence is clearly torturing us.
post #129 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

The VP of product development at Netflix claims that the streaming is 1080p.
http://blog.netflix.com/2010/10/wii-...disc-free.html

The netflix press release announcing DD+
http://netflix.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=372

Granted, these aren't proof of anything. But it does clarify that netflix is indeed officially claiming 1080p and DD+. And yeah, the case for 1080p isn't helped by the fact that nobody is able to decode the DD+ yet and that the PS3 is currently limited to just plain DD.

So they officially announced 1080p. They've tweeted bandwidth requirements specifically for 1080p. They've tweeted that x-high-hd is 1080p. And the ps3 will only play x-high-hd when set to 1080p output. Finally, some people have posted pictures allegedly showing 1-pixel wide detail.

In all, this is a convincing amount of evidence and my doubt of 1080p is now nearly non-existent.

Okay, that's where my confusion lies, it was Netflix that talked about the DD+, but it doesn't say anything about 1080p in that PR, it was Sony.

A blog entry is not something that a lot of fokls will see, but as Mike notes above, the assumption is that Netflix didn't want to steal the thunder for the 1080p from Sony being as they're the only one's who have that resolution, makes sense I suppose.

Still, you would think that Netflix would have eventually made a statement(as in an official PR) themselves about the 1080p.
post #130 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

The reply you got to from your tweets seems inconsistent. I would not trust the second reply. I don't believe any of the videos are in 1080p, and their employees are just not fully briefed on how to respond to such queries in a properly vague yet encouraging manner.

Having scanned numerous tweets of Netflixhelps responding to various questions, my impression is that their responses, which often give technical detail (like 1080p encodings requiring 8 Mbps including overhead), are derived from knowledgeable sources. I think that whoever is responsible for answering those questions, if they don't already know the answer, has ready access to all of the people who do know. It's not some random phone CSR answering your private questions privately--it's a Netflix corporate Twitter account with thousands of followers, many of whom have quoted these tweets in popular tech blogs. Their tweets are public statements that the company can be held legally liable for and I doubt that they make firm statements carelessly--I've already received a "vague but encouraging" response or two .

There are ways to confirm the X-High/HD-equals-1080p claim. Someone in another thread (here) suggested that someone with a PS3 install the Tomato firmware in their router so that bandwidth consumption can be observed while viewing Netflix streams. If someone were willing to install this firmware (or has it installed already), they could set the fixed resolution on their PS3 to 720p and observe bandwidth usage at High/HD, then set resolution to 1080p and find out how much bandwidth X-High/HD consumes. (The guy who suggested this saw an average of 3.5 Mbps consumed while he watched an HD title, consistent with the 3.8 Mbps advertised bit rate for 720p). I'm kind of leary of installing this, but I may do it; the procedure for my router (an old Linksys WRT54G) seems simple.
post #131 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Okay, that's where my confusion lies, it was Netflix that talked about the DD+, but it doesn't say anything about 1080p in that PR, it was Sony.

A blog entry is not something that a lot of fokls will see, but as Mike notes above, the assumption is that Netflix didn't want to steal the thunder for the 1080p from Sony being as they're the only one's who have that resolution, makes sense I suppose.

Still, you would think that Netflix would have eventually made a statement(as in an official PR) themselves about the 1080p.

That press release was specifically about dobly sound so of course it was just about dobly sound.

As for the 1080p, you're right that it was announced via the netflix "blog" rather than by a traditional press release. To me that seems like a semantics game. The announcement was made by a vice president and published on netflix.com. It was then picked up by the media and reported in pretty much every media outlet that has anything to do with netflix streaming.

When a vice president of a massive corporation posts something to that corporation's official website, my bet is that it is true. It isn't like this guy is posting thousands of words every day. The words he posts are deliberate. Netflix is as legally liable for the accuracy of that information as they are for a piece of paper with the words "press release" at the top.
post #132 of 1242
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Having scanned numerous tweets of Netflixhelps responding to various questions, my impression is that their responses, which often give technical detail (like 1080p encodings requiring 8 Mbps including overhead), are derived from knowledgeable sources. I think that whoever is responsible for answering those questions, if they don't already know the answer, has ready access to all of the people who do know. It's not some random phone CSR answering your private questions privately--it's a Netflix corporate Twitter account with thousands of followers, many of whom have quoted these tweets in popular tech blogs. Their tweets are public statements that the company can be held legally liable for and I doubt that they make firm statements carelessly--I've already received a "vague but encouraging" response or two .

There are ways to confirm the X-High/HD-equals-1080p claim. Someone in another thread (here) suggested that someone with a PS3 install the Tomato firmware in their router so that bandwidth consumption can be observed while viewing Netflix streams. If someone were willing to install this firmware (or has it installed already), they could set the fixed resolution on their PS3 to 720p and observe bandwidth usage at High/HD, then set resolution to 1080p and find out how much bandwidth X-High/HD consumes. (The guy who suggested this saw an average of 3.5 Mbps consumed while he watched an HD title, consistent with the 3.8 Mbps advertised bit rate for 720p). I'm kind of leary of installing this, but I may do it; the procedure for my router (an old Linksys WRT54G) seems simple.

All this would tell us is if an X-high HD stream was using a higher bitrate than a high HD stream. It says nothing about resolution (720 vs 1080). This test is assuming the 1080 stream would be using a higher bitrate. The fact that X-high does not look any better (to me) suggests it is very nearly the same bitrate.

Also, I only have a 6 mbps cable modem and every HD stream I watch comes in at X-high HD. I'm lucky if my line tests out at 5.1 mbps. How am I getting all this 1080?
post #133 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

All this would tell us is if an X-high HD stream was using a higher bitrate than a high HD stream. It says nothing about resolution (720 vs 1080). This test is assuming the 1080 stream would be using a higher bitrate. The fact that X-high does not look any better (to me) suggests it is very nearly the same bitrate.

We've been told by Netflix that 720p is encoded at 3.8 Mbps and requires about 5 Mbps to get and that 1080p encodings require an 8 Mbps connection, from which I estimate that the stream probably average 6 Mbps. If we see something averaging 6 Mbps in a real test, it would support the claim that X-High/HD is 1080p (or some newfangled high bit rate 720p encoding).

Quote:


Also, I only have a 6 mbps cable modem and every HD stream I watch comes in at X-high HD. I'm lucky if my line tests out at 5.1 mbps. How am I getting all this 1080?

Now, that's an interesting question for which I do not have an answer.

In any case, I've decided to risk the Tomato firmware--if you don't hear from me for a while, assume the worst .
post #134 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

That press release was specifically about dobly sound so of course it was just about dobly sound.

As for the 1080p, you're right that it was announced via the netflix "blog" rather than by a traditional press release. To me that seems like a semantics game. The announcement was made by a vice president and published on netflix.com. It was then picked up by the media and reported in pretty much every media outlet that has anything to do with netflix streaming.

When a vice president of a massive corporation posts something to that corporation's official website, my bet is that it is true. It isn't like this guy is posting thousands of words every day. The words he posts are deliberate. Netflix is as legally liable for the accuracy of that information as they are for a piece of paper with the words "press release" at the top.

Yes, you're right, it no doubt is true, and plus, it's something specific to the Sony device so one would expect the "big noise" would come from Sony. Now if 1080p were more commonplace on a variety of devices then I would think Netflix would make a bigger deal about it, something other than a blog posting.
post #135 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Also, I only have a 6 mbps cable modem and every HD stream I watch comes in at X-high HD. I'm lucky if my line tests out at 5.1 mbps. How am I getting all this 1080?

It's just a can of worms. VUDU has three levels of HDX... 4.5, 6.0 and 9Mbps I believe and users have noted the image quality increase along with the bandwidth. Who knows what X-High HD stands for... all we know for sure is if you set the PS3 to 720p it's never displayed? So it takes the 1080p display setting along with some other unknown(s) to activate it.
post #136 of 1242
VUDU's bandwidth minimums are 1 Mbps, 2.25 Mbps and 4.5 Mbps for 480p/stereo (SD), 720p/5.1 (HD) and 1080p/5.1 (HDX) respectively, with better PQ for more bandwidth than the minimum within each tier (i.e., 4 Mbps 720p should look a lot better than 2.25 Mbps 720p). The top bit rate is 9 Mbps, which HDX can reach.
post #137 of 1242
So what are the top Streaming Devices?


Oppo Blu Ray with Anchor Bay
Samsung Blu Ray with Silicon Optix Realta
PS3

Enquiring minds want to know.
post #138 of 1242
In terms of picture quality: PS3 is currently the only device that does 1080p netflix streaming. It also suffers less from banding/blocking artifacts in large areas of similar color. However it doesn't currently output 24 fps like some other devices will.

The browsing interfaces differ as well. But preference for these is heavily influenced by personal opinion.
post #139 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I've decided to risk the Tomato firmware--if you don't hear from me for a while, assume the worst .

I survived the change, though there was a tense moment there (the cable modem wouldn't grant the router a connection, but rebooting the modem fixed that).

I'm seeing a 10 minute average consumption of 3.8 Mbps for High HD and 5.7 Mbps for X-High HD, using The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest. Make of this what you will, but it's about what I'd expect if X-High were 1080p encoding requiring 8 Mbps including headroom (3.8 Mbps is 76% of the stated 5 Mbps requirement, and 76% of 8 Mbps is 6 Mbps). I need to do a more careful comparison (make sure that I'm roughly averaging the same 10 minutes of the same film). I'll post some graphs later.
post #140 of 1242
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I survived the change, though there was a tense moment there (the cable modem wouldn't grant the router a connection, but rebooting the modem fixed that).

I'm seeing a 10 minute average consumption of 3.8 Mbps for High HD and 5.7 Mbps for X-High HD, using The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest. Make of this what you will, but it's about what I'd expect if X-High were 1080p encoding requiring 8 Mbps including headroom (3.8 Mbps is 76% of the stated 5 Mbps requirement, and 76% of 8 Mbps is 6 Mbps). I need to do a more careful comparison (make sure that I'm roughly averaging the same 10 minutes of the same film). I'll post some graphs later.

Well done! Thanks for this important data. I will do a similar test on my router soon and see what I'm getting on my 6mbps line for X-high /HD.
post #141 of 1242
I posted the graphs here at the end of the "Netflix Streaming Quality" thread. Someone suggested that we move this discussion to that thread and I agree.
post #142 of 1242
Is there anything with a Netflix interface that handles multiple-episode shows well? I tried out Netflix on my Tivo Series 3, and it was so bad I canceled my NF trial account.
Looking for something that:
1. Will automatically start playing the next episode after current one is finished (or if you skip ahead)
2. Will flag partially-watched shows.
3. Shows which episode is next, or just let you pick the show title, and hit Play to resume where you left off.

On the Tivo interface, you need to remember what ep you just finished, drill down about 4 menu levels to the ep list, page to the one you need to watch next (If you remember which one), and start playing.
post #143 of 1242
I have similar issues with the TiVo Premiere. However if I remember correctly it simply returns you to the series page and highlights the episode you just watched... all you do is hit down (to the next episode) and enter. I haven't seen any that will start the next episode automatically but many of them will cycle you to the next one and display how much you have viewed of each episode.
post #144 of 1242
The Xbox interface will display all episodes titles with little progress bars and a percentage underneath each of them that you've watched any of. If, at the top level of the browser you press PLAY with a season a tv series selected, it will play the last episode that you watched at the point that you left off; if you haven't watched any, it will play the first. Once the episode finishes, you're brought back to where you started playing it (top level browsers or the title's menu), with the next episode selected (or first if you just finished the last), so if it finishes an episode all you have to do to watch the next is press PLAY.

I believe that the new installed PS3 player is operating in a similar fashion.
post #145 of 1242
Yeah, the PS3 works the same....when you're done with an episode, you get dropped out to the menu with the next one highlighted.

Must be tied to the percentage watched....like 90% or something, since obviously most people will just hit stop without watching the credits, so you never really complete the entire episode, but the next one will still highlight when you drop out.
post #146 of 1242
Is the PS3 Fat compatible with the 2.4 and 5.0 Gigahertz band widths?

Which one is best for streaming HD Netflix?

Thanks,

Henry
post #147 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmcewin View Post

Is the PS3 Fat compatible with the 2.4 and 5.0 Gigahertz band widths?

Which one is best for streaming HD Netflix?

If you're asking whether the PS3 can do 802.11n the answer is no. They're all 802.11b/g only.

I hadn't heard that there was any difference between PS3 models vis-a-vis Netflix streaming.
post #148 of 1242
fwiw, I just moved from an old ps3 to a new slim and the wifi is way better on the slim.
post #149 of 1242
I have a PS3 and a Sony S570. The PQ streaming for NF is meh, worse than DVD quality with the S570 and I haven't tried the PS3. I'm using an inexpensive Belkin N router and a modem from Comcast. My provider is Verizon for high speed internet access but I don't truly know how high speed it is.

Isn't more the case of that latter equipment instead of which video device I use to stream? In other words, the PS3 or Roku will not be any better than the S570. I'm I not correct?

If that is the case, then what are your recommendations for a better picture?
post #150 of 1242
Well, it could be a variety of things. Check your speed at www.speedtest.net and see what it gets. You should be looking for at least 5-6 down (preferably a bit more).

I am not sure about the BD player, but the PS3 will have a quality meter on it if you press the "info" button (going from Low - Xhigh and then an SD/HD indicator: so X-High/HD means you're watching an HD title and getting the best signal, while High/SD means you're watching an SD title and getting the best signal). I believe most devices other than the PS3 offer some sortof dots or bars as a quality indicator.

Then check to see which movie you're watching. Make sure to try an HD stream. Quality varies wildly, but most of the HD streams look pretty decent and should look about like broadcast HD. Most newer SD streams look as good as DVD, but again, the quality can and does vary wildly, especially if you are watching older StarzPlay encodes (the newer ones look better) or some older titles in general.

If you have sufficient bandwidth, the PS3 will give you a better picture. Do you have the option to hardwire rather than go wireless?

You can look through the screenshots in this thread to give you an idea of what the HD stuff should look like through the PS3: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1302612
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