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Best possible Netflix streaming device - Page 9

post #241 of 1001
3/5/11 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry06 View Post

I'm partial to my my Roku box, but I guess to each is his own. I did notice though the latest Roku XDS supports 1080P, but I have yet to see any content from Netflix in that category. I really wish 5.1 support would also come to the Roku box, but right now only see the PS3 as others have mention. Hopefully it will trickly down in the next few months.

The Roku does support 5.1. I recently watched Red from Amazon VOD through it and it was in glorious DD 5.1 in my home theater.
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post #242 of 1001
3/5/11 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by subavision212 View Post

The Roku does support 5.1. I recently watched Red from Amazon VOD through it and it was in glorious DD 5.1 in my home theater.

I started to mention the same thing but I think that he meant support for 5.1 tracks on Netflix streams like the PS3 (and, apparently, one of the new Panny BD players).
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post #243 of 1001
3/5/11 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I started to mention the same thing but I think that he meant support for 5.1 tracks on Netflix streams like the PS3 (and, apparently, one of the new Panny BD players).

Correct, 5.1 via NF is what I was looking for in this circumstance.
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post #244 of 1001
3/5/11 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry06 View Post

Correct, 5.1 via NF is what I was looking for in this circumstance.

Then I think you are stuck with the PS3. I guess there's one BD player that is supposedly doing it now...

Of course, that doesn't mean 5.1 won't come to other devices next week. I'm actually surprised it has taken this long.
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post #245 of 1001
3/5/11 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mproper

Then I think you are stuck with the PS3. I guess there's one BD player that is supposedly doing it now...

Of course, that doesn't mean 5.1 won't come to other devices next week. I'm actually surprised it has taken this long.
You and me both...I would have thought the Roku would have been done first but maybe the holdup is on Roku's end?
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post #246 of 1001
3/5/11 at 7:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post
I'm secretly suspecting that the 1080p NF streams aren't really, but are in fact, 720p.

But I'm cynical. And, to me, pq is VERY important. OTA and BRD pq have spoiled the crap out of me, so that I'm not seeing anything in the HD NF streams I'VE seen that look markedly better than DVD.

And to me, it needs to for me to sink more money into streaming in my home. With Blu-ray, I don't have to dig deep into data-rates to know it's a phenomenal picture. The phenomenal picture betrays itself. HD streaming needs to do that, for me.

Am I alone?
Yes, I'm sure most of the NF HD is 720p, but to me, many of the NF movies look better than DVD, so I'm not sure why you are not seeing this. What device are you using? Just watched Happy Gilmore tonight, and the PQ was amazing. I would say on par with the average BR. Maybe this one was in 1080p? No way to tell, but it looked fantastic. I am very impressed by the PQ of Netflix personally.
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post #247 of 1001
3/5/11 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry06 View Post

You and me both...I would have thought the Roku would have been done first but maybe the holdup is on Roku's end?

It may be tied to Netflix' HTML5-based dynamically downloaded player.



Notice the Netflix interface shown in the bottom left corner--Panasonic's VieraCast has the same UI as the PS3. There have been reports that you can stream 5.1 sound from Netflix on the Panasonic DMP-BDT210 BD player:
Quote:


the big news is that the netflix is the 3.0 which is the same one as the ps3. it can play the DD+ and it will show up on the receiver. I have the onkyo 270. I got the DD+ to show up on a couple of titles.

That's even better than the PS3, inasmuch as I don't think that you can bitstream DD+ out of the Netflix player running on the PS3, though Netflix has stated that the 5.1 sound is DD+.
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post #248 of 1001
3/6/11 at 9:08pm
Is it true the Sony BDP-S380 does not let you browse the Netflix library? Some say it is only your personal que. That makes no sense at all.
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post #249 of 1001
3/7/11 at 3:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

It may be tied to Netflix' HTML5-based dynamically downloaded player.



Notice the Netflix interface shown in the bottom left corner--Panasonic's VieraCast has the same UI as the PS3. There have been reports that you can stream 5.1 sound from Netflix on the Panasonic DMP-BDT210 BD player:
That's even better than the PS3, inasmuch as I don't think that you can bitstream DD+ out of the Netflix player running on the PS3, though Netflix has stated that the 5.1 sound is DD+.

If true, then it might actually be better than the ps3 right now. After all, the ps3 isn't properly outputting dd+ yet.

Confirmation would be nice though. Similar reports in the past have turned out to be false.
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post #250 of 1001
3/8/11 at 8:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Yes, I'm sure most of the NF HD is 720p, but to me, many of the NF movies look better than DVD, so I'm not sure why you are not seeing this. What device are you using? Just watched Happy Gilmore tonight, and the PQ was amazing. I would say on par with the average BR. Maybe this one was in 1080p? No way to tell, but it looked fantastic. I am very impressed by the PQ of Netflix personally.

I don't know. Maybe some of us are more sensitive to the differences than others?

I'm about to upgrade my router, so that may help. Keep your fingers crossed.
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post #251 of 1001
3/8/11 at 8:56am
^ What device are you using, and you getting full quality (bars or dots or X-High or whatever your device displays?)

If you're watching most HD titles and it's not looking better than DVD, then I'm guessing something is wrong somewhere. Most (not all) HD stuff for me looks somewhere between my broadcast HD (FiOS) and BD. At the worst, it looks on par with my HD.

And I think it was proven elsewhere that there are 1080p streams (I think they set the PS3 to output 720p max and never got the X-High setting, so I think X-High now equals 1080p). Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that. Of course you'll only get those on the PS3 and supposedly one BD player that nobody has been able to verify at all (so just a rumor as far as I'm concerned).

Sorry...don't know if you've mentioned what device you are using yet....can't seem to find a mention of you saying, but maybe I missed it.
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post #252 of 1001
3/8/11 at 9:50am
Watching on PC right now. Getting about 12-14Mb/s downloading speed
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post #253 of 1001
3/8/11 at 10:10am
Can you explain more? No netflix stream is anywhere close to 12-14Mbps... so I'm a bit confused about what you're getting at.

Incidentally, unless your router is broken, a new router will make zero difference.

A few posts back you mentioned HD netflix streaming not looking better than DVD. Have you tried a PS3? While reasonable debates are being had about netflix 1080p vs blu-ray or HD cable, the same isn't true for comparison to DVD. Netflix 1080p has waaaaay better picture quality than DVD. Granted, netflix audio is worse. The only possible exception I can think of is gradient banding in low light scenes and some streams that have frame-rate encoding problems.
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post #254 of 1001
3/8/11 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Can you explain more? No netflix stream is anywhere close to 12-14Mbps... so I'm a bit confused about what you're getting at.

Incidentally, unless your router is broken, a new router will make zero difference.

A few posts back you mentioned HD netflix streaming not looking better than DVD. Have you tried a PS3? While reasonable debates are being had about netflix 1080p vs blu-ray or HD cable, the same isn't true for comparison to DVD. Netflix 1080p has waaaaay better picture quality than DVD. Granted, netflix audio is worse. The only possible exception I can think of is gradient banding in low light scenes and some streams that have frame-rate encoding problems.

No, I am talking about bandwidth measured on my internet connection via bandwidthplace. I only mentioned it to explain that I should have bandwidth to spare for NF HD.

I have not seen first-eye NF HD streaming on PS3, nor have I on any device OTHER than my pc (5 year old Dell Dimension 3100).

My argument is that, if there isn't a 100% reliable way to know when you're looking at a 1080p NF stream, then how do we know it makes a difference over a 720p NF stream?
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post #255 of 1001
3/8/11 at 10:44am
The PS3 will say "x-high hd" when streaming at 1080p.

It is possible that your 5 year old computer can't do netflix HD. Silverlight is pretty processor hungry when pushing that many pixels.

On my quad-core i7 with 8 gigs of ram, connected via a ludicrous fios connection, netflix still takes a while to hit HD when viewing via a PC's web browser. When HD kicks in... wow, an absolutely massive difference. In comparison, the ps3 cranks up to x-high hd almost immediately.

When watching netflix in a browser, hit control-shift-alt-D to display stats...
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post #256 of 1001
3/8/11 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post

My argument is that, if there isn't a 100% reliable way to know when you're looking at a 1080p NF stream, then how do we know it makes a difference over a 720p NF stream?

The answer is bit rate not resolution (itself). X-High HD streams at a higher bit rate.
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post #257 of 1001
3/8/11 at 11:33am
Exactly. x-high hd (1080p) has been confirmed to be a higher bitrate than high hd (720p). Netflix's twitter account has confirmed this as well as bandwidth monitoring performed by helpful members of this forum. (I'd give credit where due but have forgotten who ran the tests. )
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post #258 of 1001
3/8/11 at 11:41am
Thread Starter 
^^ Yes, it is the bitrate that matters (assuming equally effective compression of course)

Some of us may differ on what x-High HD means, but we all seem to agree the PS3 produces a significantly better picture, and that's what counts.

In fact, I don't think I recall reading a single post in which someone claimed another device looked better than the PS3 for Netflix. Has anyone else seen some?
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post #259 of 1001
3/8/11 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

In fact, I don't think I recall reading a single post in which someone claimed another device looked better than the PS3 for Netflix. Has anyone else seen some?

Comparing the PS3 to (many) other streamers prior to X-High HD I found the PS3 lacking. Now that the Panasonic players do 5.1 (using the same encodes?) I'm guessing they will perform as good or better. I certainly see no reason why they shouldn't... and with one shipping soon I should be able to find out shortly.
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post #260 of 1001
3/8/11 at 11:50am
Okay, given that we know that bitrate is important, how close is the ATV2 in pq to the PS3? How do you quantify that difference? Is it $200 dollars worth of better? Because neither my TV (Pioneer Elite Pro111-FD) nor my Blu-ray player (BDF-51FD) can stream Netflix. I'm invested in the iTunes ecosystem, so I'm inclined to go with $100 ATV2 and call it a day. But, if you're saying that there is a VISIBLE pq difference between that and the PS3, I'm now torn.

So, again, how do you quantify that pq difference?
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post #261 of 1001
3/8/11 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Comparing the PS3 to (many) other streamers prior to X-High HD I found the PS3 lacking. Now that the Panasonic players do 5.1 (using the same encodes?) I'm guessing they will perform as good or better. I certainly see no reason why they shouldn't... and with one shipping soon I should be able to find out shortly.

In theory, similar performance is possible. So far it hasn't been reported as such.

We eagerly await your report!

The PS3 has the advantage of a ton of processing power, but that isn't to say that other devices don't have enough power to achieve the same quality. It also has a large user base and hence is well supported both in terms of stability and optimization. But again, this doesn't mean that other players can't achieve the same quality.

Have there been any actual user reports from people streaming netflix 5.1 to a Panasonic player.
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post #262 of 1001
3/8/11 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post

Okay, given that we know that bitrate is important, how close is the ATV2 in pq to the PS3? How do you quantify that difference? Is it $200 dollars worth of better? Because neither my TV (Pioneer Elite Pro111-FD) nor my Blu-ray player (BDF-51FD) can stream Netflix. I'm invested in the iTunes ecosystem, so I'm inclined to go with $100 ATV2 and call it a day. But, if you're saying that there is a VISIBLE pq difference between that and the PS3, I'm now torn.

So, again, how do you quantify that pq difference?

There is no objective answer. Some people say the difference is massive. Other people say the difference is hardly perceptible.

I've got both and will try to remember to post comparison shots tonight. In my opinion, the PS3 is far superior. Whether it is worth it is really a personal preference based on usage rate and amount of disposable income.

With the ATV2 I constantly notice banding in background regions of a constant color. This doesn't catch my eye when watching with a PS3.
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post #263 of 1001
3/8/11 at 12:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post

Okay, given that we know that bitrate is important, how close is the ATV2 in pq to the PS3? How do you quantify that difference? Is it $200 dollars worth of better? Because neither my TV (Pioneer Elite Pro111-FD) nor my Blu-ray player (BDF-51FD) can stream Netflix. I'm invested in the iTunes ecosystem, so I'm inclined to go with $100 ATV2 and call it a day. But, if you're saying that there is a VISIBLE pq difference between that and the PS3, I'm now torn.

So, again, how do you quantify that pq difference?

I tested the ATV earlier on when I started this thread. Big Apple household here, and I loved the ATV2! It has by far the best UI and the interface with iPhoto is nothing short of brilliant. The Netflix browser (Which was custom designed especially for Apple) is easily the best available. It really makes me wonder why the other platforms don't do things this well. Browsing is actually FUN on the ATV2, and after you select a movie, you see a page that immediately list every actor in the flick and you can click on their names to find instantly every other movie in which they appear. The background is black and shows 7 neatly spaced thumbnails on each row and they flip FAST when you hit the buttons on that amazingly tiny remote. The search application is fast and the cursor slides with a certain momentum. Apple definitely knows human interface. And since pretty much nothing streams at 1080p anyway, the 720p limit is not really a shortcoming yet.

The only drawback is the picture quality on Netflix. For HD, the PS3 looks significantly better. For SD there is no difference that I could see. I compared both at 720p output and posted pictures a while back.

For me PQ is more important than UI, so I sold the ATV2 and went kept the PS3. It was a tough call though. Such a great device otherwise.

Here are the photo results from my comparison.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post19875759
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post #264 of 1001
3/8/11 at 12:18pm
But see, I don't want 2 Blu-ray players. And I don't game on my tv.
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post #265 of 1001
3/8/11 at 12:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post

So, again, how do you quantify that pq difference?

For me I use the opening scenes of 24 (season seven episode one) to judge image quality. There is lots of fast action and background images to use. The car wreck(s) will show pixel break-up and the reporters in the background of the courtroom along with the building columns show details rather nicely. For starters transfers will vary much more than the devices so to some extent it's a mute issue. Also preference comes into play. Do you prefer dynamic (high intra-scene contrast) images or more of a film like image, etc?

A lot of the Blu-ray players add contrast (and noise) to the image when it's scaled to 1080p. In most cases pure streamers appear to keep the image more natural as does the TiVo Premiere along with the PS3. The Apple TV has a really high contrast image that gives it a nice 3D look without edge enhancement. I noticed this on their rentals too.

My personal take is since you are streaming quality is compromised regardless of device and the little difference you might see are in most cases different rather than one clearly being significantly better. If each device ends up using the same bit rate it'll become a mute issue like Blu-ray playback.
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post #266 of 1001
3/8/11 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by [Irishman] View Post

But see, I don't want 2 Blu-ray players. And I don't game on my tv.

Right now the winner would appear to be the Panasonic DMP-BDT110 ($125 - Amazon). Unfortunately it comes with a Blu-ray player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Have there been any actual user reports from people streaming netflix 5.1 to a Panasonic player.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post20097348

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post20100017

Also the Boxee Box has the same screen. However it doesn't let you select 5.1. I'm guessing it will before long... why bother to show it other wise.
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post #267 of 1001
3/8/11 at 12:46pm
I agree. The appleTV wins in terms of browsing interface. Most other netflix interfaces are ridiculously clunky in comparison.

It really is astounding how bad the browsing experience is on most netflix devices. In a year or two we will look back and laugh at these early interfaces. The processing power and bandwidth are sufficient, and people are capable of understanding a more fully featured interface. Companies just haven't figured out how to bring everything together in a powerful but intuitive interface.
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post #268 of 1001
3/8/11 at 1:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Companies just haven't figured out how to bring everything together in a powerful but intuitive interface.

I think the legacy of supporting over 200 devices causes all kinds of grief. Like with the TiVo they support the TiVo buttons (info, 30 second advance, 10 second skip back, etc) which makes it great using TiVo's remote. The queue is crude and very slow to move around in (even though it's largely text based). So the code isn't even chip dependent it's unique per the device itself (for each generation of the device too in many cases). I figure the earliest they will get back to revisiting the TiVo interface is when a new model is introduced.
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post #269 of 1001
3/8/11 at 1:16pm
My bet is that netflix is moving toward server-delivered interfaces in the same way that web browsers don't dictate the interface of web pages. They've already done this with the html5 based interface of the PS3. This should make support far easier. As long as the device has enough processing power and a client-app capable of drawing text, pictures, and video on the screen, any interface is possible. No changes would be necessary for the app installed on the netflix streaming device. Or more precisely, updates to device specific apps would be less frequent and less drastic. The interface could be improved without leaving poorly supported devices behind.
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post #270 of 1001
3/8/11 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post
I think the legacy of supporting over 200 devices causes all kinds of grief. Like with the TiVo they support the TiVo buttons (info, 30 second advance, 10 second skip back, etc) which makes it great using TiVo's remote. The queue is crude and very slow to move around in (even though it's largely text based). So the code isn't even chip dependent it's unique per the device itself (for each generation of the device too in many cases). I figure the earliest they will get back to revisiting the TiVo interface is when a new model is introduced.
They supported most of those device with an identical BD Java app. Now they seem to be moving to an identical HTML5-based system which they can apparently dynamically update. The interface on my PS3 and the ones I've seen screenshots of on Panasonic BD players (like this one from that post you linked to above) seem to be identical. The Panasonic BD players, however, can apparently output a DD+ bitstream which the PS3's player currently cannot; I wonder if they can output native video format as well? The DMP-BDT110 is cheap enough that I'm tempted to buy one just to screw around with its VieraCast apps (I have the PS3 for BDs, and I can't remember the last time I watched one).
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