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Best possible Netflix streaming device - Page 11

post #301 of 1001
3/13/11 at 6:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

As I said above, I think that the data sent to a streaming player in the 10 minute shown in the graphs does not represent 10 minutes of video. The 10 minutes worth of video played while it was receiving that data is part of it, but at the end of that 10 minutes there's still unplayed video data in the player's buffer. If you stopped sending the stream after that 10 minutes and let the unplayed buffer play to its end, the total duration of the video would be more than 10 minutes; how much more depends upon the size of the player's buffer, the buffering algorithm it uses and the amount of excess bandwidth available.

If you look at the first Roku Netflix graph that I posted (the blue and red one), you'll see the player was sent 319.41 MB of video data in that 10 minutes:

319.41 MB x 8 bits-per-byte = 2555.28 Mbits / 3.8 Mbps = 672.44 seconds

I think that at the end of that 10 minute window, the Roku had approximately 72.44 seconds worth of video left to play in its buffer.

That sounds like a reasonable explanation.
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post #302 of 1001
3/13/11 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

That sounds like a reasonable explanation.

If we accept the assumption that the stereo/720p averages 3800 Kbps (High/HD), we can perform some BS estimations using some of the numbers above . Stereo/720p on the PS3 consumed 305.05 MB, so:
305.05 MB x 8000 Kbits-per-MB = 2440400 Kbits / 3800 Kbps = 642.21 seconds Stereo/1080p on the PS3 brought down 407.98 MB; if we assume that it was also 642.21 seconds worth:
407.98 MB x 8000 Kbits-per-MB = 3263840 Kbits / 642.21 seconds = 5082 Kbps Now, if we also assume 642.21 as the duration of 10 minutes streamed with 5.1 sound, for DD+/720p we get:
311.11 MB x 8000 Kbits-per-Mbyte = 2488880 Kbits / 642.21 seconds = 3875 Kbps For DD+/1080p on the PS3 we get:
415.44 MB x 8000 Kbits-per-MB = 3323520 Kbits / 642.21 = 5175 Kbps That makes DD+ a paltry difference in bandwidth versus stereo--75 Kbps on the 720p stream, 93 Kbps on the 1080p one (whatever the real number is, it's probably the same for both, but these calculations are definitely not accurate to within 18 Kbps; if we round 5082 Kbps up to 5100, it's a flat 75 Kbps difference).

Again, that's all total BS, based on some really wild-ass assumptions . The results are not unreasonable, though. I can certainly buy them using 5100 Kbps for 1080p encoding.
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post #303 of 1001
3/14/11 at 11:08am
i can confirm that I get the DD+ on the netflix and vudu with my 210 model.

Jacob
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post #304 of 1001
3/14/11 at 4:48pm
Err,... uh....

Is there Cliff'sNotes available?

I.e. I read pages and pages of this thread and looked at all the graphs,.... but all I want to know is... What's the best Netflix streaming device?

Should I be waiting for the next firmware upgrade for Roku and then buy a unit that runs it? Or should I buy a Panasonic something or other right now?

I have 3-4 devices that can stream Netflix.

X-Box 360,
Pioneer SC-05 receiver
and a Samsung BD1600 BluRay player
Wii

The Samsung is what I'm using now. Internet connection is 14 megabit cable, with a hard-wire goig to the player. I have only a couple times seen all the quality bars light up (usually 9 of the 12 are lit). And of course only stereo sound.

Thanks.
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post #305 of 1001
3/14/11 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckstu View Post

What's the best Netflix streaming device?

Should I be waiting for the next firmware upgrade for Roku and then buy a unit that runs it? Or should I buy a Panasonic something or other right now?

I have 3-4 devices that can stream Netflix.

X-Box 360,
Pioneer SC-05 receiver
and a Samsung BD1600 BluRay player
Wii

The Samsung is what I'm using now. Internet connection is 14 megabit cable, with a hard-wire goig to the player. I have only a couple times seen all the quality bars light up (usually 9 of the 12 are lit). And of course only stereo sound.

Thanks.

The very best Netflix stream at this moment in time is the PS3. It would appear that your household is into video gaming so if that's in your budget you might want to consider it .

The latest and greatest wrinkles on Netflix streaming are 5.1 sound, 1080p video and closed captions on some titles. The PS3 can play all of those. For half the price ($130 at Amazon for the BDT110) you can get the Panasonic DMP-BDT110, a 3D BD player with a Netflix player with two of those capabilities (5.1 and CC). In the BDT110's product line is the BDT210 and (not yet released) BDT310 which have the same Netflix playback capabilities. You can see a comparison of the BDT110 and BDT210 at Panasonic's site here.

As I wrote in that first post with graphs above, I just got the BDT110, mostly because I wanted a player for streaming Amazon VOD (I have a PS3, Xbox, TiVo and this PC all connected to this 46" panel and AVR, all capable of playing Netflix HD streams so access to HD streaming Amazon streams was my only excuse ).

The BDT110 is packed full of capabilities--I haven't really scratched the surface yet. (I haven't even played a disc on it ). For $130, it's pretty impressive. Netflix, Amazon, VUDU, CinemaNow, Video Skype, etc, and it's a 3D BD player. It can also apparently play video on DLNA servers in your home.
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post #306 of 1001
3/14/11 at 8:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

The very best Netflix stream at this moment in time is the PS3. It would appear that your household is into video gaming so if that's in your budget you might want to consider it .

The latest and greatest wrinkles on Netflix streaming are 5.1 sound, 1080p video and closed captions on some titles. The PS3 can play all of those. For half the price ($130 at Amazon for the BDT110) you can get the Panasonic DMP-BDT110, a 3D BD player with a Netflix player with two of those capabilities (5.1 and CC). In the BDT110's product line is the BDT210 and (not yet released) BDT310 which have the same Netflix playback capabilities. You can see a comparison of the BDT110 and BDT210 at Panasonic's site here.

As I wrote in that first post with graphs above, I just got the BDT110, mostly because I wanted a player for streaming Amazon VOD (I have a PS3, Xbox, TiVo and this PC all connected to this 46" panel and AVR, all capable of playing Netflix HD streams so access to HD streaming Amazon streams was my only excuse ).

The BDT110 is packed full of capabilities--I haven't really scratched the surface yet. (I haven't even played a disc on it ). For $130, it's pretty impressive. Netflix, Amazon, VUDU, CinemaNow, Video Skype, etc, and it's a 3D BD player. It can also apparently play video on DLNA servers in your home.


Hey thanks.

Funny thing is,... I actually don't play games much at all. The X-Box was a gift from a friend who wanted me to play Forza2 online with him, and the wife wanted the Wii fit, but we never play it. (The Kinect for the x-box is a very fun work-out though,...highly recomended).

So the PS3 is the best (which i've heard else-where),... and the Panasonic is the same but with a bit less video quality?

My screen is 60",... so the PS3 might be worth buying for the extra vid quality. I've always figured that the bigger the screen,.. the more important high-res is. I've gone whole-hog on the audio now (two 6-channel out-board amps powering 7.1,... with four 12" subs etc). So the 5.1 is the most important thing I'm missing.

I hear the next unit that will be able to stream Netflix in HD AND do 5.1 at the same time will be the Boxee, and while it still doesn't do the 5.1,.... it is supposed to with the up-comming 4.4 update (or something like that).


Hmmmm,... at a $169,.. the Panasonic might be worth doing,... even if it's only as a stop-gap measure.
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post #307 of 1001
3/14/11 at 9:15pm
I do have to say that the Panasonic is quite noticeably less fast navigating around that interface than the PS3 (which itself isn't as responsive as it might be). Understandable given that the PS3's processor is almost certainly much faster. Of course, the BDT210 might be faster but I doubt it. It's tolerable; I noticed the sluggishness while doing something in the service of maintaining my list of Netflix streaming titles with 5.1 sound that few if any people would want to do (skimming through a bunch of new titles on the tail of my instant queue, popping into the descriptions to check for 5.1 sound, deleting the ones which didn't have it from the queue).
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post #308 of 1001
3/15/11 at 1:48pm
Someone please explain this to me:

Why is it that PS3 has such superior streaming performance (or mostly claimed to be)?

Why is it that other devices (blue ray players or roku-type dedicated devices) cannot provide that quality?

I am not a gamer and I don't like the idea of having bulky device with a
game controller instead of a remote or a keyboard.
Peter
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post #309 of 1001
3/15/11 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mureta View Post

Someone please explain this to me:

Why is it that PS3 has such superior streaming performance (or mostly claimed to be)?

Why is it that other devices (blue ray players or roku-type dedicated devices) cannot provide that quality?

I am not a gamer and I don't like the idea of having bulky device with a
game controller instead of a remote or a keyboard.

I'm not certain that the PS3 has the best PQ and AQ--one of these new BD players might at least equal it, playing 720p DD+ (and currently the PS3 does not bitstream DD+ which the Panny BD players can do). The one thing it can do which I haven't seen any of the others do yet is play a 5+ Mbps stream, presumably a 1080p encoding.

The recent "PS3 Slim" is not particularly bulky (though I'd personally prefer that it be a flat pizza box). I rarely use it to play games (there've only been a couple of PS3 exclusives that interested me--mainly the Uncharted games) so I primarily control it with my Harmony One, which I also use to control my Xbox for video viewing. Sony ignorantly chose to make the PS3 remote Bluetooth only (the Xbox has both wireless for game controllers and IR for AV remote control), but I have the Logitech Harmony Adapter for PS3, a little thing which listens for IR commands from the Harmony which it turns in the equivalent BT codes for the Playstation).

Something has to be the best. The PS3's advantage here is its processor, which is designed to do something several orders of magnitude more difficult than playing streaming video. It can do this as well as it possibly can be done in its sleep . I doubt that it will be the best forever.
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post #310 of 1001
3/15/11 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mureta View Post

Someone please explain this to me:

Why is it that PS3 has such superior streaming performance (or mostly claimed to be)?

Why is it that other devices (blue ray players or roku-type dedicated devices) cannot provide that quality?

I am not a gamer and I don't like the idea of having bulky device with a
game controller instead of a remote or a keyboard.
Peter

Well, first of all the PS3 is not any "bulkier" than anything else (at least the slim version) and you can use a remote fine with the PS3 (either a bluetooth remote or just a normal remote with an adapter on the PS3).

For performance, the PS3 has tons of processing power all built around pushing HD graphics in real-time (based on user input, it needs to be able to do all that processing and drawing quickly).

Because of that, it's obviously going to have a lot of horsepower under the hood, which can be utilized for the streaming and BD loading functions (AFAIK the PS3 still outperforms most players in load times).

I believe most of the other devices are perfectly capable of doing 1080p and 5.1....just most aren't getting those streams yet. Quality of course depends on any video processing that would be done by the device...something the PS3 seems to handle really well. At least one other poster (mkdragon or michaelscott maybe?) seems to prefer his BD player though, but I can't remember specifics.

Hope that helps.
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post #311 of 1001
3/15/11 at 2:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mproper View Post

At least one other poster (mkdragon or michaelscott maybe?) seems to prefer his BD player though, but I can't remember specifics.

Not me--the PS3 is still my favorite. Though the BDT110 has the same interface, that interface is a lot more responsive on the PS3. The PS3 also does the dynamic adaptive bit rate thing more smoothly. The BDT110 can bitstream DD+ from Netflix but I don't currently have an AVR which can decode it; the AC-3 that I get from the PS3 sounds just fine.
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post #312 of 1001
3/15/11 at 3:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Not me--the PS3 is still my favorite. Though the BDT110 has the same interface, that interface is a lot more responsive on the PS3. The PS3 also does the dynamic adaptive bit rate thing more smoothly. The BDT110 can bitstream DD+ from Netflix but I don't currently have an AVR which can decode it; the AC-3 that I get from the PS3 sounds just fine.

I purchased my PS3 when it was first released. While I own maybe 3 or 4 games, I could never get out of the first level of each game so I gave up gaming and used it exclusively as a blu-ray player. However, since Netflix, I feel I finally got my money's worth. I absolutely love the way the PS3 handles Netflix. In fact, I'm looking for a used PS3 for my Sony KDL-46xbr8. While the sony can pick up Netflix, its interface for it is nowhere as good as PS3.
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post #313 of 1001
3/15/11 at 3:41pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mureta View Post

Someone please explain this to me:

Why is it that PS3 has such superior streaming performance (or mostly claimed to be)?

Why is it that other devices (blue ray players or roku-type dedicated devices) cannot provide that quality?

I am not a gamer and I don't like the idea of having bulky device with a
game controller instead of a remote or a keyboard.
Peter

The PS3 Netflix interface is nothing special, but the picture quality is the best of any device I have tested so far. Many others on this thread will concur. We even have some hard data to support the fact that the PS3 is being fed a higher bitrate stream in some cases, which almost always means higher quality viewing. It is also nice to get 5.1 sound and subtitles on some movies.

An example of an excellent UI is the Apple TV imo. But unfortunately it falls short on PQ compared to the PS3.

I can definitely understand your concerns about it looking like a game console. A nice square box would be better, but I suppose that doesn't look as cool to the gamers? I really have no idea. I have never used my PS3 for gaming, but my kids tell me it's pretty good ;-)

The logitech PS3 remote adapter works well.
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post #314 of 1001
3/15/11 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mproper View Post

Well, first of all the PS3 is not any "bulkier" than anything else (at least the slim version) and you can use a remote fine with the PS3 (either a bluetooth remote or just a normal remote with an adapter on the PS3).

For performance, the PS3 has tons of processing power all built around pushing HD graphics in real-time (based on user input, it needs to be able to do all that processing and drawing quickly).

Because of that, it's obviously going to have a lot of horsepower under the hood, which can be utilized for the streaming and BD loading functions (AFAIK the PS3 still outperforms most players in load times).

I believe most of the other devices are perfectly capable of doing 1080p and 5.1....just most aren't getting those streams yet. Quality of course depends on any video processing that would be done by the device...something the PS3 seems to handle really well. At least one other poster (mkdragon or michaelscott maybe?) seems to prefer his BD player though, but I can't remember specifics.

Hope that helps.

Not bulkier? Have you seen the size of an appleTV or a few the other small devices? Not only are they less than 10% of the size of the ps3, they are also fanless. This means they don't need additional space for ventilation. My appletv is velcro'd to the side of my receiver. Granted, the difference isn't important to everyone.

Wih that said, many of the other devices don't have enough processing power for 1080p. For instance, I've tested the appleTV2 with various 1080p files. It was incapable of playing any of them without dropping frames some of the time. And that's with post processing turned off. That means that even if it could decode a 1080p stream and successfully output all of the frames, it still wouldn't look as good. Compression artifacts couldn't be dealt with like they are on faster devices such as the ps3.

Besides having access to higher bitrate streams, the ps3 also has enough power to apply post processing. I assume that it is actually post processing but don't have any direct evidence other than what is seen on the screen.
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post #315 of 1001
3/15/11 at 4:02pm
I personally don't care for this move to irregularly sized and shaped devices (you'll never see me buy a Boxee Box ). I'm an advocate for 17" wide pizza boxes, preferrably deep enough (front to back) to stack other pizza boxes on top of. Make them really thin and light if you want, just give me some kind of uniformity of shape. Hence, I'm not crazy about the shape of any of the game consoles and the PS3's domed top makes it my least favorite of the three. I suppose that tiny little flat rectangular boxes like the ATV and Roku aren't too objectionable.

The PS3's fan is a negative, particularly the one in my launch model 60GB box. Hopefully the newer ones run cooler and with less cause for the fan to run.
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post #316 of 1001
3/15/11 at 4:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Not bulkier? Have you seen the size of an appleTV or a few the other small devices?

Should've clarified that with a "not bulkier than normal devices such as Blu-ray players or cable boxes." You are correct the streaming only devices are small.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I personally don't care for this move to irregularly sized and shaped devices (you'll never see me buy a Boxee Box ).

Yeah, I keep hoping against hope that consoles will move in this direction (particularly now that the average age of a gamer is in the mid 30's). Enough with the Playschool designs.
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post #317 of 1001
3/15/11 at 4:30pm
Thanks to everyone helping to understand why PS3 has superior streaming quality.
The other questions remain:
(1) It seems the choices for streaming sources pretty much limited
to NetFlix. Can PS3 stream from VUDU, Amazon, CinemaNow, etc?
(2) Is there a downside to PS3 slim vs. the big guy?

Thanks,
Peter
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post #318 of 1001
3/15/11 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mureta View Post

(1) It seems the choices for streaming sources pretty much limited
to NetFlix. Can PS3 stream from VUDU, Amazon, CinemaNow, etc?

The PS3 has Netflix, a VUDU player and video from the Playstation Network (which didn't used to be streaming--that may have changed). In contrast, the Panasonic DMP-BDT110 that I just got has Netflix, VUDU, CinemaNow and Amazon VOD (I bought it for Amazon VOD, which nothing else I have can stream; I've had it for a week and haven't tried playing a disc in it yet ).
Quote:
(2) Is there a downside to PS3 slim vs. the big guy?

Any "big guy" PS3 that you buy is old (though it may be new, unsold stock)--they haven't manufactured any of those models since the Slim was introduced in September 2009. Ony the 160 GB and 320 GB Slims are currently in production.

No weaknesses to speak of--earlier models like mine have hardware support for PS2 games (which I've never used); PS2 games can't be played on the newer models. They also had SACD playback capabilities and 4 USB ports (newer ones only have two). The Slims can bitstream Dolby TrueHD and DTS MA, which the old "fat" models cannot, though they can process the sound formats internally and output them as uncompressed 7.1 PCM.
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post #319 of 1001
3/16/11 at 10:24am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I personally don't care for this move to irregularly sized and shaped devices (you'll never see me buy a Boxee Box ). I'm an advocate for 17" wide pizza boxes, preferrably deep enough (front to back) to stack other pizza boxes on top of. Make them really thin and light if you want, just give me some kind of uniformity of shape. Hence, I'm not crazy about the shape of any of the game consoles and the PS3's domed top makes it my least favorite of the three. I suppose that tiny little flat rectangular boxes like the ATV and Roku aren't too objectionable.

The PS3's fan is a negative, particularly the one in my launch model 60GB box. Hopefully the newer ones run cooler and with less cause for the fan to run.

I like the "pizza box" term. Maybe I can make a pizza box that holds my PS3, Roku, and Logitech remote converter in a way that the collection looks like a real piece of AV gear ;-)
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post #320 of 1001
3/16/11 at 10:30am
You guys might be interested in this site comparing Roku, Boxee, and WD TV Live Plus. There are other Netflix players out there, but these seem to be the most popular.

http://www.rokureview.net/digital-video-player/
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post #321 of 1001
3/16/11 at 6:34pm
The Apple TV has a few other advantages over the other devices:

1. It has the lowest power consumption of any TV-connected Netflix device I know out there; it only pulls about 2 watts.
2. It's Netflix client starts faster than the others
3. It has a "skip" function that breaks a program into 20 equal segments making it easy to jump around (hit the down arrow on the Apple remote)

It's my preferred device for watching Netflix movies and TV shows especially when it comes to just browsing around the catalog. However, for certain HD titles (i.e. action movies), I will flip over to the PS3
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post #322 of 1001
3/16/11 at 6:48pm
The only thing that really annoys me about the PS3 is that Sony appears to have no inclination to fix it so DD+/TrueHD/DTS-HD and 1080p/24 output works on anything other than Blu-Ray playback. They must be aware of the problem by now and simply do not care.

I really hope Roku or some other media device gets Netflix 1080p/DD+ support (along with proper Vudu output), and when it does I'll probably pick it up.
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post #323 of 1001
3/17/11 at 9:50pm
Now that the Boxee Box has it, I have been using it quite regularly and am very happy with it! Apple TV's latest update offers 5.1 audio now. Overall though I would go with a PS3
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post #324 of 1001
3/18/11 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

I like the "pizza box" term. Maybe I can make a pizza box that holds my PS3, Roku, and Logitech remote converter in a way that the collection looks like a real piece of AV gear ;-)

good idea! Might be time to revive the decade old "docking station' idea for all these add-on gizmos. While we're at it, maybe throw in a solar charger for emergencies
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post #325 of 1001
3/19/11 at 6:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwire View Post

good idea! Might be time to revive the decade old "docking station' idea for all these add-on gizmos. While we're at it, maybe throw in a solar charger for emergencies

Congratulations! You just crossed 1000 posts ;-/
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post #326 of 1001
3/27/11 at 6:22pm
We have in our house the PS3 (slim), the Xbox 360 and the AppleTV.

I don't understand why the Xbox 360 shows a Netflix HD icon while the others do not.

The PS3 device has the killer blueray player from a color accuracy standpoint. It is our preferred machine to stream Netflix, Vudu and Hulu+.

However, I wish the PS3 could stream the iPhone video library served by our Synology NAS. iPhone compatible video formats are not compatible to stream to the PS3. Thus, we use the Apple TV for simplicity and AirPlay when viewing the iPhone video library.
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post #327 of 1001
3/27/11 at 6:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post
The only thing that really annoys me about the PS3 is that Sony appears to have no inclination to fix it so DD+/TrueHD/DTS-HD and 1080p/24 output works on anything other than Blu-Ray playback. They must be aware of the problem by now and simply do not care.
I was not aware of a Blueray audio playback issue on the PS. This doesn't seem right on a Sony box.

I have an older 5.1 Denon that works well in the space and haven't felt the need to upgrade to True HD/DTS-HD.
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post #328 of 1001
3/28/11 at 5:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffin View Post

I was not aware of a Blueray audio playback issue on the PS. This doesn't seem right on a Sony box.

I have an older 5.1 Denon that works well in the space and haven't felt the need to upgrade to True HD/DTS-HD.

It works fine on Blu-ray. It's the other stuff it doesn't work on (like Vudu and Netflix which should be DD+)
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post #329 of 1001
3/28/11 at 11:06am
I have a PS3 hooked up to an LG TV that is able to accept YCbCr as well as RGB signals. The PS3 is set to AUTO for the color space selection, and this works well for Blu-ray playback and games. My TV has the option of showing which color space is currently in use. For BR it shows YCbCr 4:4:4 and for games it shows RGB. That's exactly how it should be, but my question is in regards to the PS3 Netflix app.

Netflix is all RGB on the PS3 and probably every other device as well. I'm wondering if it's technically possible to have the app output in YCbCr, where appropriate.

Hope this is not too far off-topic. It has to do with the best possible Netflix picture quality, because the goal is to eliminate any color space conversion.
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post #330 of 1001
3/28/11 at 12:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VBB View Post

I have a PS3 hooked up to an LG TV that is able to accept YCbCr as well as RGB signals. The PS3 is set to AUTO for the color space selection, and this works well for Blu-ray playback and games. My TV has the option of showing which color space is currently in use. For BR it shows YCbCr 4:4:4 and for games it shows RGB. That's exactly how it should be, but my question is in regards to the PS3 Netflix app.

Netflix is all RGB on the PS3 and probably every other device as well. I'm wondering if it's technically possible to have the app output in YCbCr, where appropriate.

Hope this is not too far off-topic. It has to do with the best possible Netflix picture quality, because the goal is to eliminate any color space conversion.

Interesting. I have always had my PS3 set to YCbCr output for everything (no games here), but I did not know Netflix was RGB. How do you know Netflix is RGB?

I'm not up to speed on the signaling in either case, so maybe you can help me understand this better. Why do we want to keep BR playback in YCbCr? It used to be that YCbCr had the benefit of allowing more bits to be used for Y and less for color thus providing a better tradeoff for what matters most to our eyes, but nowadays I don't think bandwidth is the problem any more. Is it just colorspace conversion that we are trying to avoid?

I assume the physical panel can ultimately only display RGB, since that's the only pixels it's got, so if we have the PS3 playing Netflix as YCbCr, does that mean there is one conversion in the PS3 from RGB to YCbCr, and then another in the TV from YCbCr back to RGB?

Are you worried about mathematical losses in these conversions?
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