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Best possible Netflix streaming device - Page 18

post #511 of 1001
10/7/11 at 11:26am
The new WD box has a gigabit port and does indeed support TrueHD bitstreaming, but only DTS lossy core from DTS-MA source (apparently DTS doesn't want to license it). If the box supports FLAC/AAC multichannel decoding in a .MKV wrapper I'm going to buy this thing.

Edit: I'll be getting a new WD TV Live to test on Sunday.
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post #512 of 1001
10/9/11 at 2:15pm
Update: WD TV Live- 1080p/24p DD+ output. (at least I think it's native 1080p and not upscaled- once again, no way to know unless someone tests it). Definitely 24p though, and definitely DD+ bitstreaming.
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post #513 of 1001
10/9/11 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

Update: WD TV Live- 1080p/24p DD+ output. (at least I think it's native 1080p and not upscaled- once again, no way to know unless someone tests it). Definitely 24p though, and definitely DD+ bitstreaming.

Ask Dave Zatz what the basis of his claiming that it can play the Netflix 1080p encodings. Was he told something by WD or Netflix?

I really wish that someone--at least among the tech bloggers--would buy a WRT54G/GS/GL and install Tomato in it so that they could perform the 10-minute-average bandwidth usage test that I've been doing with it (apparently if it's a G or GS the hardware has to before V5). You could install the firmware and configure it, then swap it in temporarily instead of your normal router while testing. The only way that I can test these things is to buy them and fraudulently return them. Except possibly for the 24p thing, the new WD TV Live doesn't do anything that I need that I don't already have. If it had Amazon and VUDU in addition to Netflix I'd be interested, but it doesn't.
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post #514 of 1001
10/9/11 at 4:10pm
The bloggers obviously have no idea WTF they are talking about because they clearly don't even bother to test the thing- they just read the specs off the box. The file-support in the WD Live is weak at best. It can play back a lot of formats, just not well, and not correctly. I am going to post over in the server/networking forum my observations.

I'll probably keep it anyways just for its excellent Netflix support and the interface- with the hope that it will be something more in the future. The current WD Live Plus has the best user support/mods of any other box out there right now. Wish it had Vudu and Amazon on there too now for the forced 24p.

So, Mike, are you going to buy one to test? BestBuy has them in stock and you can use the 10% coupon floating around.
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post #515 of 1001
10/9/11 at 11:06pm
Here is how I would do a visual check for 1080p Netflix, assuming you have a 1080p TV.

Load up Example Short 23.976 Burned in Timecode. Fast forward to around the 10 minute mark, the pincushion test.

The quality ramping should be very obvious, and on a 1080p flat panel the left edge of the first "1" is a "white"-black-yellow transition, with the straight black line only 1 pixel wide. On a 720p stream it will be smeared and appear out of focus. (If you load this native 720p cap in an image editor and zoom you can see that the line on that stream is actually two yellow-grey pixels)



Better yet, if you have another device that can display PNGs, load the X-High image on it and flip back and forth between inputs to compare...
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post #516 of 1001
10/10/11 at 12:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Here is how I would do a visual check for 1080p Netflix, assuming you have a 1080p TV.

Load up Example Short 23.976 Burned in Timecode. Fast forward to around the 10 minute mark, the pincushion test.

The quality ramping should be very obvious, and on a 1080p flat panel the left edge of the first "1" is a "white"-black-yellow transition, with the straight black line only 1 pixel wide. On a 720p stream it will be smeared and appear out of focus. (If you load this native 720p cap in an image editor and zoom you can see that the line on that stream is actually two yellow-grey pixels)



Better yet, if you have another device that can display PNGs, load the X-High image on it and flip back and forth between inputs to compare...

It's pretty subtle--I actually had to zoom to see it. My monitor for this computer is the same 1080p 46" LCD panel that all the rest of my stuff is hooked up to, so I loaded them both into tabs in Chrome, expanded to full screen, clicked to zoom and flipped back and forth with CTRL-TAB.

Of course you have to have a 1080p-capable capture card for your test.
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post #517 of 1001
10/10/11 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaiii View Post

Roughly 2-3 updates ago, I noticed when using Netflix that the PS3 will ONLY output the audio as PCM, despite having any settings I can change in setup set to bitstream.

The net results is that my AVR displays it's getting Multi-Channel In.... but I get NO audio to the center channel. It's plain old 2-channel for almost all shows/movies I've tried. Because the AVR thinks it's getting a multi-channel PCM, I cannot matrix sound (using DPLII or Neo) to the center like I could when the sound was received as a stereo signal.

I've tried this on 3 AVR's now - Denon AVR-1910, Marantz SR6005, and Denon AVR-991...

It's damn frustrating because I like to stream a fair amount with Netflix, and the PS3 is so much more responsive and a much better overall streaming device than the Panasonic BD85 I have in my bedroom... but now I cannot get audio through the center channel when using the PS3.

Has anyone figured out how to get around this?

EDIT: Oops, missed that someone already posted about this issue:

This process works for me with PS3 and pre-amp which provides both 5.1 and 7.1 options:
1) When using PS3 for streaming, remove any 7.1 options from PS3 audio setup (i.e., as if the pre-pro/receiver has no 7.1 capabilities).
2) If movie has "5.1" sound, reflect applicable "5.1" capabilities in PS3 setup
3) If no "5.1" sound for movie, remove "5.1" from PS3 audio setup and reflect only 2 channel PCM applicable capabilities

It appears to me as if something in the current PS3/Netflix firmwares results in the PS3 outputting the "highest" capability (i.e., 7.1, 5.1, or 2.0) selected on the PS3 setup instead of the actual audio stream sent from Netflix. Then the receiver/pre-pro doesn't handle it correctly.

Bottom line: It takes me a minute or so to setup as discussed above; but I get accurate multi channel sound for "5.1" and my pre-pro processes properly "2.0" into it's multi channel formats.

But, this problem is a bunch of "crap" and they need to fix it!
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post #518 of 1001
10/10/11 at 7:21am
Yes. You would have to be constantly changing your audio settings.
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post #519 of 1001
10/10/11 at 9:01am
FYI: The new WD TV Live uses the same adaptive streaming for Netflix as the PS3 and the Roku 2 does.

As for the test pattern msgohan posted, it's kind of hard for me to tell on my HDTV but on my Dell u2711 (which is one of the best displays on the market) I can definitely see it, problem is the u2711 automatically applies filtering to a HDTV source on its HDMI input.

Someone else will have to test the new WD TV Live to verify it's 1080p. Are there any 720p Netflix devices that use "adaptive streaming"?
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post #520 of 1001
10/10/11 at 9:36am
Thread Starter 
Mike,

In you evaluation, is there any advantage at all to the previous generation Roku (XDS) over the current Roku 2? Just considering an upgrade and wondering if I lose anything.

I am still hoping the next Apple TV will play NF 1080p streams. Such a great user interface.
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post #521 of 1001
10/10/11 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

FYI: The new WD TV Live uses the same adaptive streaming for Netflix as the PS3 and the Roku 2 does.

That's great news. This seems like the best evidence (so far) of playing 1080p netflix streams. Or am I mistaken in thinking that only the 1080p enabled devices have adaptive streaming?
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post #522 of 1001
10/10/11 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

That's great news. This seems like the best evidence (so far) of playing 1080p netflix streams. Or am I mistaken in thinking that only the 1080p enabled devices have adaptive streaming?

No, many of them do, some better than others. My Panasonic DMP-BDT110 does and it can't show the 1080p encodings.
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post #523 of 1001
10/10/11 at 9:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

In you evaluation, is there any advantage at all to the previous generation Roku (XDS) over the current Roku 2? Just considering an upgrade and wondering if I lose anything.

Not that I can tell, though I didn't use the XD for very long before returning it. I think that all of the same channels are available--AFAIK, only Netflix is different, with support for 1080p, 5.1 and closed captions.
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post #524 of 1001
10/10/11 at 11:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Not that I can tell, though I didn't use the XD for very long before returning it. I think that all of the same channels are available--AFAIK, only Netflix is different, with support for 1080p, 5.1 and closed captions.

I see from the Roku website that the new Roku no longer has the optical audio out. I believe the only digital audio output available now is via the hdmi port.

My AV receiver is old and is not able to accept any audio from its hdmi connections, it is just a switch in this regard, so I've been relying on the optical ports for 5.1 audio.

I am thinking of upgrading the receiver. From reading your previous posts it appears the 5.1 audio output from the Roku 2 when watching Netflix will be DD+ passed through. I realize this is not compatible with regular DD. But when I look at specs of new receivers I don't see any mentioning DD+, they mention Dolby TrueHD. My question is, if I see a receiver offering Dolby TrueHD does this mean it would also decode DD+?
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post #525 of 1001
10/10/11 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Of course you have to have a 1080p-capable capture card for your test.

Why? I'm talking about just viewing the stream. I don't know about plasma but if you get close enough to an LCD you can even see the pixel grid to count. A digital camera will suffice for showing to all of your friends on AVS.



I also disagree that it's in any way subtle, but that depends on viewing distance vs screen width (and vision).
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post #526 of 1001
10/10/11 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

I am thinking of upgrading the receiver. From reading your previous posts it appears the 5.1 audio output from the Roku 2 when watching Netflix will be DD+ passed through. I realize this is not compatible with regular DD. But when I look at specs of new receivers I don't see any mentioning DD+, they mention Dolby TrueHD. My question is, if I see a receiver offering Dolby TrueHD does this mean it would also decode DD+?

I hadn't noticed, but the description of the one that I bought (this one) doesn't mention DD+ either, even though there's a big brochure blurb on the page. I think that they advertise the lossless formats because inclusion of them is more important, but I'm pretty sure that if it's got the lossless, it can handle all of the others as well.

If in doubt, you can always google the manual for the product that you're considering--most often you'll find a PDF copy of it in the support section of the manufacturer's site.
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post #527 of 1001
10/10/11 at 12:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Why? I'm talking about just viewing the stream. I don't know about plasma but if you get close enough to an LCD you can even see the pixel grid to count. A digital camera will suffice for showing to all of your friends on AVS.



I also disagree that it's in any way subtle, but that depends on viewing distance vs screen width (and vision).

I suppose, but we could always just assume that your focus was off on the fuzzy one. Watching the stream run would make it difficult to compare.
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post #528 of 1001
10/10/11 at 12:19pm
Not really, I mean, you can see the individual colors comprising the panel's pixels in both of my shots (and specs of dust for that matter ). The test pattern is a still frame by the way.

EDIT: The capture card I use is only $95... c'mon, you know you want it.
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post #529 of 1001
10/10/11 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

But when I look at specs of new receivers I don't see any mentioning DD+, they mention Dolby TrueHD. My question is, if I see a receiver offering Dolby TrueHD does this mean it would also decode DD+?

If a receiver is capable of decoding TrueHD it can decode DD+.
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post #530 of 1001
10/11/11 at 1:53pm
I recently got a ROKU 2 and had to upgrade my receiver. I must admit I didn't think to check specifically if it supported DD+. I was assuming if it supported the new Blu-Ray audio formats I would be fine. I got an Onkyo RC-360 and am very happy (check Fry's they sell the receiver at a significant discount periodically) and it sounds great with the ROKU 2 5.1 audio streams.

As for the WD Live - as has been previously suggested the best way really would be for someone with Tomato on their router to check the average bandwidth - if it is around 5.2Mbps then it is almost certainly 1080P with 5.1 audio. I recently installed Tomato on a Linksys WRT160N V3 and couldn't be happier. The router is more stable and connections seem to be faster - previously I had to reboot the router about once a week or speed steadily declined.
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post #531 of 1001
10/11/11 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

As for the WD Live - as has been previously suggested the best way really would be for someone with Tomato on their router to check the average bandwidth - if it is around 5.2Mbps then it is almost certainly 1080P with 5.1 audio.

I use the 10 minute average a challenging-to-encode sequence (minutes 4-14 of Ong Bak 2, martial arts combat in the rain); it should measure an average of 5.6 Mbps for 1080p and 4.2 Mbps or so for 720p (5.1 doesn't seem to add much versus stereo--maybe a couple of hundred Kbps). Both numbers include some amount of unplayed buffered content.
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post #532 of 1001
10/12/11 at 8:55am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I hadn't noticed, but the description of the one that I bought (this one) doesn't mention DD+ either, even though there's a big brochure blurb on the page. I think that they advertise the lossless formats because inclusion of them is more important, but I'm pretty sure that if it's got the lossless, it can handle all of the others as well.

If in doubt, you can always google the manual for the product that you're considering--most often you'll find a PDF copy of it in the support section of the manufacturer's site.

I did some looking into it, and it does appear consistent that all receivers that offer Dolby TrueHD also decode DD+. That's good. Since buying the new Roku means also buying a new receiver for many of us I guess it's fair to discuss this here. What made you choose the Onkyo? I was considering this one.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Do you think the Onkyo is a better choice? I would like to benefit from your research.
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post #533 of 1001
10/12/11 at 9:22am
My 8 year old uses the 360 for streaming. Seems to handle it fine without any buffering issues. I never tried on the PS3, but I hear that works well.
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post #534 of 1001
10/12/11 at 9:41am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Here is how I would do a visual check for 1080p Netflix, assuming you have a 1080p TV.

Load up Example Short 23.976 Burned in Timecode. Fast forward to around the 10 minute mark, the pincushion test.

The quality ramping should be very obvious, and on a 1080p flat panel the left edge of the first "1" is a "white"-black-yellow transition, with the straight black line only 1 pixel wide. On a 720p stream it will be smeared and appear out of focus. (If you load this native 720p cap in an image editor and zoom you can see that the line on that stream is actually two yellow-grey pixels)



Better yet, if you have another device that can display PNGs, load the X-High image on it and flip back and forth between inputs to compare...

Very interesting. Is this test pattern actually provided by netflix for viewing? I never heard of it. Can I simply go to my TV (with PS3) and browse to this selection?
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post #535 of 1001
10/12/11 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Very interesting. Is this test pattern actually provided by netflix for viewing? I never heard of it. Can I simply go to my TV (with PS3) and browse to this selection?

Yes. Well, rather than browse for it, you'll probably have to search (Triangle) for it.

Also, the 4 user reviews of this title are worth reading for a small chuckle.
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post #536 of 1001
10/12/11 at 11:02am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mproper View Post

Yes. Well, rather than browse for it, you'll probably have to search (Triangle) for it.

Also, the 4 user reviews of this title are worth reading for a small chuckle.

Is the name of the video actually "Example Short 23.976 Burned in Timecode"?

If this test pattern is known to definitely have content that is one pixel wide (tall) at 1080 resolution, then being able to see this content without blurring into neighboring pixels would be conclusive evidence that the stream is 1080. Do we know for a fact that the pattern has some content that is one pixel wide?
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post #537 of 1001
10/12/11 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Very interesting. Is this test pattern actually provided by netflix for viewing? I never heard of it. Can I simply go to my TV (with PS3) and browse to this selection?

Strange question, since you quoted a post with a link to the title's page on Netflix. Just click that link and add it to your Instant Queue.
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post #538 of 1001
10/12/11 at 11:52am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Strange question, since you quoted a post with a link to the title's page on Netflix. Just click that link and add it to your Instant Queue.

I did click the link, but the page keeps timing out. Maybe it has something to do with filters here at work. I'll try it at home.
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post #539 of 1001
10/12/11 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

I did click the link, but the page keeps timing out. Maybe it has something to do with filters here at work.

You should have mentioned that. The question seemed sort of like someone asking where his glasses are while wearing them (which I myself have done ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

I did some looking into it, and it does appear consistent that all receivers that offer Dolby TrueHD also decode DD+. That's good. Since buying the new Roku means also buying a new receiver for many of us I guess it's fair to discuss this here. What made you choose the Onkyo? I was considering this one.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Do you think the Onkyo is a better choice? I would like to benefit from your research.

My main criteria was a receiver from a good brand with DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD HR and DTS-HD MA decoding for under $300. It was for a fairly small space so power wasn't a big deal. I looked at a Yamaha, Pioneer and an Onkyo in that range and I liked the features of the Onkyo best. I asked in the related forum here and was told that of the three the Onkyo was the best (someone suggested that I look for a good price for the HT-RC360 which was significantly more expensive). I was also upgrading an Onkyo HTiB receiver that I'd used for the past 5 years and had been largely satisfied with--it was still going strong when I unplugged it.

I didn't see that Denon for that price anywhere or I may well have chosen it--I've had good experiences with Denon receivers in the past.
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post #540 of 1001
10/12/11 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Do we know for a fact that the pattern has some content that is one pixel wide?

Well, I posted a screenshot demonstrating that it does. Do you doubt its veracity?
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