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Best possible Netflix streaming device - Page 32

post #931 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Just a tip: to test whether you're getting 1080p from your Netflix player (or just see it step up through the various encodes) you can run Netflix's "Example Short 23.976". It has a text overlay which states which video encode that you're seeing. I think the overlay is a fairly recent addition; I've played with the various "Example Shorts" in the past and never saw that before.

Awesome! That's a great find Michael!
post #932 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Just a tip: to test whether you're getting 1080p from your Netflix player (or just see it step up through the various encodes) you can run Netflix's "Example Short 23.976". It has a text overlay which states which video encode that you're seeing. I think the overlay is a fairly recent addition; I've played with the various "Example Shorts" in the past and never saw that before.
I just tried it on a Sony BDP-S380 (non-adaptive streaming), and there was nothing telling me what encode it was using. When I tried my WDTV Live Streaming (adaptive streaming), I did see the bitrate and resolution.

There is also another variation: Example Short 23.976 Burned In Timecode
post #933 of 1242
It's the same with the Boxee Box, the bitrate doesn't show up. It does show up on the TiVo Premiere boxes.
post #934 of 1242

For me...It shows on the PS3, and the pc of course, but not on my Insignia Blu Ray or the NF app on an Android tablet..The title won't even display in the Recently Watched section on the tablet app.

post #935 of 1242
I've tried playing the sample clip on everything that I own with a Netlix player--TiVo Premiere, TiVo S3, PS3, Xbox 360, Panasonic DMP-BDT110 & -BDT220, Sony BDP-S390, Roku 2 XS, Nexus 7 and this PC and you can see that overlay on all of them except the BDT110 and TiVo Series3. The TiVo S3 still has its original 4 y/o, pre-adaptive-bit-rate Netflix player and is therefore using a different set of video encodes; this could explain why some of you aren't seeing the overlay on your older players.

The Panasonic DMP-BDT110 is a 2011 model and most certainly was using the same set of encodes as all the other adaptive bit rate streaming (ABS) Netflix players. It was never Netflix 1080p-capable (though it can play 1080p from VUDU) and its owners participating in these forums were ever hopeful that they'd add 1080p to it so I tested its bandwidth consumption with every firmware update; it has always given results consistent with the 3600 Kbps 720p encode. That was until recently when AVS Forum member Brandenborg thought that he noticed an increase in picture quality and asked me to test it again. My test uses the realtime bandwidth monitor graph in the open source firmware that I run in my venerable old Linksys WRT54G router, called "Tomato". Tomato's graph shows bandwidth consumption over the past 10 minutes, giving total and per-second-average data transmitted/received numbers. To test, I measure data received during minutes 5-14 of Ong Bak 2: The Beginning, an encoder-challenging sequence of martial arts combat in the rain. Here are the graphs for the BDT110, the top one being what I got the last time something changed (no new firmware, just a switch to the common Netflix UI from a superior one rolleyes.gif which happened at the end of August); the bottom is what I got testing today (31% lower):

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
BDT110V188NewUI1080p51NetflixOngBak2Small.jpg



BDT110V1881080p51NetflixOngBak2NewEncodesSmall_zps735aee72.jpg

Back in February there was a PR about Netflix contracting a start-up called "eyeIO" for their new video encoder tech, supposedly achieving as-good-or-better results as current H.264/AVC encoding technology in 20-50% less bandwidth. I'm thinking that maybe Netflix has begun deploying that technology on some subset of platforms. Though the BDT110 is not starting stream playback any faster (it's taking 10-12 seconds, not the fastest but not nearly the slowest) I do notice that it always starts up with a pretty damn decent encode, at least as good as the highest quality SD on the others; many of the others might start with one of the three low bit rate encodes that the PS3 calls "Low/SD" (235, 375 and 560 Kbps), all of which are unwatchably bad.

If Netflix's ABS algorithm is well designed, the clients wouldn't be aware of the actual bit rates of the encodes and the software on that side wouldn't need modification to move to a set of encodes at different rates.
Edited by michaeltscott - 9/23/12 at 6:16pm
post #936 of 1242
@michael: Thank you for all the excellent information you post on this subject -- here and in the device specific threads.

Like you, I am not seeing the stream info overlay when playing the Example shows on my Panasonic DMP-BDT110. As for my subjctive judgment on PQ of the streams we receive: There were a few days when we seemed to be getting higher PQ than usual, but since then I wouldn't say it's been consistently superior. If indeed there IS a PQ improvement, it varies between movies (as always). And I am sure Netflix will be using much of the gains from eyeIO to cut down bandwidth instead of raising PQ. In the end, this could mean higher average PQ, if it means a stable feed with a higher PQ.

I'll be watching this one with great interest!
post #937 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyross63 View Post

There is also another variation: Example Short 23.976 Burned In Timecode

There are quite a few variations on that test clip at 24 fps, 25 fps, 29.97 fps, etc, etc: just search Netflix for "Example". The only other one I've found with the burned in bit-rate/resolution info is Example 8 Hour 23.976. (There's some really good stuff hidden in those 8 hours--the guy in the black shirt juggles, recites Shakespeare and more smile.gif! For a laugh, read some of the reviews that people have left for these biggrin.gif).
post #938 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I've tried playing the sample clip on everything that I own with a Netlix player--TiVo Premiere, TiVo S3, PS3, Xbox 360, Panasonic DMP-BDT110 & -BDT220, Sony BDP-S390, Roku 2 XS, Nexus 7 and this PC and you can see that overlay on all of them except the BDT110 and TiVo Series3. The TiVo S3 still has its original 4 y/o, pre-adaptive-bit-rate Netflix player and is therefore using a different set of video encodes; this could explain why some of you aren't seeing the overlay on your older players.
The Panasonic DMP-BDT110 is a 2011 model and most certainly was using the same set of encodes as all the other adaptive bit rate streaming (ABS) Netflix players. It was never Netflix 1080p-capable (though it can play 1080p from VUDU) and its owners participating in these forums were ever hopeful that they'd add 1080p to it so I tested its bandwidth consumption with every firmware update; it has always given results consistent with the 3600 Kbps 720p encode. That was until recently when AVS Forum member Brandenborg thought that he noticed an increase in picture quality and asked me to test it again. My test uses the realtime bandwidth monitor graph in the open source firmware that I run in my venerable old Linksys WRT54G router, called "Tomato". Tomato's graph shows bandwidth consumption over the past 10 minutes, giving total and per-second-average data transmitted/received numbers. To test, I measure data received during minutes 5-14 of Ong Bak 2: The Beginning, an encoder-challenging sequence of martial arts combat in the rain. Here are the graphs for the BDT110, the top one being what I got the last time something changed (no new firmware, just a switch to the common Netflix UI from a superior one rolleyes.gif which happened at the end of August); the bottom is what I got testing today (31% lower): Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
BDT110V188NewUI1080p51NetflixOngBak2Small.jpg
BDT110V1881080p51NetflixOngBak2NewEncodesSmall_zps735aee72.jpg
Back in February there was a PR about Netflix contracting a start-up called "eyeIO" for their new video encoder tech, supposedly achieving as-good-or-better results as current H.264/AVC encoding technology in 20-50% less bandwidth. I'm thinking that maybe Netflix has begun deploying that technology on some subset of platforms. Though the BDT110 is not starting stream playback any faster (it's taking 10-12 seconds, not the fastest but not nearly the slowest) I do notice that it always starts up with a pretty damn decent encode, at least as good as the highest quality SD on the others; many of the others might start with one of the three low bit rate encodes that the PS3 calls "Low/SD" (235, 375 and 560 Kbps), all of which are unwatchably bad.
If Netflix's ABS algorithm is well designed, the clients wouldn't be aware of the actual bit rates of the encodes and the software on that side wouldn't need modification to move to a set of encodes at different rates.

Good stuff. It wonder if Netflix has deployed the eyeIO technology to one of the 1080P capable devices? If so, I wonder what the % bandwidth reduction is in that case?
post #939 of 1242
For those who have an Iphone or an Android device using Netflix on the PS3, you now have the option of your using your phone as a remote control. I tried it out last night and works pretty good. You select a video (from the phone) and it asks you if you want to play the video either on your phone or thru the PS3.

Here is the link: http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/25/netflix-ios-android-ps3-second-screen-remote-control/
post #940 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerOne View Post

Good stuff. It wonder if Netflix has deployed the eyeIO technology to one of the 1080P capable devices? If so, I wonder what the % bandwidth reduction is in that case?

Yeah--one wonders. As evidenced by the visibility of the bit-rate/resolution overlay on all of them, they haven't deployed it to any of the 1080p-capable devices that I own (TiVo Premiere, PS3, Xbox 360, Panasonic DMP-BDT220, Sony BDP-S390 and Roku 2 XS). Of course, there's a possibility that they did add 1080p to the DMP-BDT110 (though I don't really think so)--other than by comparing screen caps, I don't know how we could tell and I don't have equipment with which to obtain screen caps.

I'll take a look at the titles of The Resident; there's some frames full of tiny details where it's fairly easy to see the difference between the Netflix 1080p encode and the 720p one.

EDIT: Meh--not really possible to tell. Seems sharper, but contrast is a bit different between the two sources and I have to wait 5 or 6 seconds for the television to switch. Shame that there's no Netflix video calibration clip. Bit-rate/resolution overlays in the new encoding (if that's what we're seeing) of that test clip would suffice biggrin.gif.
Edited by michaeltscott - 9/27/12 at 4:10pm
post #941 of 1242
I noticed last night when I played Transformers Dark of the Moon, on Netflix thru ATV3, the picture was worst than standard definition. Really bad.

But when I played the same film on Netfilx thru BDP-95 was a pretty nice HD, still not great but MUCH better than ATV3.

Is this isuee with ATV common?
post #942 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardia View Post

I noticed last night when I played Transformers Dark of the Moon, on Netflix thru ATV3, the picture was worst than standard definition. Really bad.

It was like that no matter how long you let it play? Video will often start up in a low-bit-rate/low-picture-quality encode, but it should ramp up to the highest bit-rate/picture-quality encode that available bandwidth on your connection will support.

It's possible that ATV3 is using a different set of encodes. If you play "Example Short 23.976" on your ATV3, do you see the burned-in bit-rate and resolution information overlay? Do you see them if you play it on the BDP-95? If ATV3 is using a different set of encodes it could be that they screwed up when they made that set and not when they made the encodes you see on the BDP-95.
post #943 of 1242
Let me check that out when I get home. And no I only watched couple of minutes due to the bad picture. Same thing on Iron Man 2.

I will check Example tonight.
post #944 of 1242
Netflix just started their services in Sweden, and I was hoping to view it with either my Panasonic VT30 or the bluray player DMP-BDT310. But the Netflix app is nowhere to be found in Viera Market on either device. A number of other services that is limited to Sweden is availabe though.

Can someone please confirm or deny that the VT30 or the BDT310 has the Netflix app at least in SOME countries. I've had some difficulties finding a clear answer to this question so far.
Would a VPN or DNS service like unblock-us.com help or are the apps disabled in firmware even?
post #945 of 1242
The DMP-BDT310 most certainly has a Netflix player in the US.
post #946 of 1242
Ok, thanks. Then we know there is nothing technically against supporting the app in Sweden at least.
post #947 of 1242
The Netflix "Post Play Experience" is now available on my Panasonic DMP-BDT220 and BDT110 3D BD players and my Sony BDP-S390 BD player. Did anyone notice when that showed up? (Doesn't work quite right on the BDT110; I tried it at the end of the same TV episode on all 3 and on the other two it suggested that I go to the next episode of the series, but that I watch something that it considered to be related on the BDT110 rolleyes.gif). It's also on the Xbox 360, but not TiVo Premiere (whose UI looks like the BD players'). I stick to my Roku for Netflix because it's UI is snappy and it burns less power than most night lights, but as time goes on it loses more and more features versus the competition.
post #948 of 1242
The cool realtime stream status overlay of the Netflix players on my Sony devices seems to be broken. It doesn't display the "Video" line at all on my PS3; it displays it on my BDP-S390, but it's stuck at "Low/SD" (it ramps up through the video encodes, but the overlay doesn't show that it's happening). Are others seeing this?
post #949 of 1242
I saw the 'post play' on my WDTV Live Streaming. I normally FF at the end titles, then stop when it hits the end. In this case, I was doing something else and it ran to the end and popped it up.

I have a feeling it's probably something with the HTML code or whatever it downloads from Netflix, and not something directly tied to a device, as long as it's running a standard Netflix interface package. That also explains that stupid 'normal or kids' thing at startup.
post #950 of 1242
So it looks like the post play thing has spread pretty far. And yeah, it's definitely implemented in the HTML5 code downloaded from Netflix. It will pop up if you're near the end of whatever you're watching when you try to exit. I don't know if it's a particularly number of minutes from the end or if it's aware that the credits are rolling. Captain America: The First Avenger has about 10 minutes worth of credits and the post play mechanism pops up if I try to exit 8 minutes from the end.
post #951 of 1242
There's an interesting new Netflix blog entry discussing their new Windows 8 app. Since it's not a web app anymore I'm wondering whether it can play the 1080p encodes and/or 5.1 sound. Anyone running Win 8 with their system connected to a surround sound AVR? On my system it'd have to convert DD+ 5.1 into basic DD since my AVR sound connection is S/PDIF (optical, I believe).
post #952 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

There's an interesting new Netflix blog entry discussing their new Windows 8 app. Since it's not a web app anymore I'm wondering whether it can play the 1080p encodes and/or 5.1 sound. Anyone running Win 8 with their system connected to a surround sound AVR? On my system it'd have to convert DD+ 5.1 into basic DD since my AVR sound connection is S/PDIF (optical, I believe).

I just installed the app on one of my Win8 machines. I need to figure out why it won't play anything. It keeps saying I need a graphic driver update, yet I'm running the win8 Nvidia drivers for my card.

Edit: I think it might be because of HDCP. My card is an old Geforce 9600GT. So I ordered a cheap Geforce 610 which has HDCP and uses a quarter of the power that my Geforce 9600GT.

I tried it briefly on my Win8 laptop and Win8 netbook.. The netbook was playing back at 1280 x 720P but the laptop was only playing back at 720x480P for some reason. I'll need to try it over the HDMI outputs to my video scaler to see what it does.
Edited by aaronwt - 10/28/12 at 12:10pm
post #953 of 1242
From my laptop and netbook connected to my scaler and ouputting at 1920x1080P, using the test video that shows the bitrate and resolution, it never went past 1280x720.
post #954 of 1242
Sad that they're still restricting PCs to 720p. Does it offer you the choice of 5.1 sound?
post #955 of 1242
I didn't check.
post #956 of 1242
Can the logitech revue with firmware 3.2 stream Netflix HD @ 1080P ? I watched the mentioned example 23.976 the highest the overlay showed (started real low but changed up 720P......then overlay went away) ?
Is this example streamed from Netflix @ 1080P ?
Edited by barneypoo69 - 10/29/12 at 6:26am
post #957 of 1242
Anyone know if the Netflix app for windows 8 is 1080p?
post #958 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaidin43 View Post

Anyone know if the Netflix app for windows 8 is 1080p?

I only saw 720P from the win8 Netflix app from my Netbook and laptop when I used the HDMI output and connected it to my HDTV.
post #959 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by barneypoo69 View Post

Can the logitech revue with firmware 3.2 stream Netflix HD @ 1080P ? I watched the mentioned example 23.976 the highest the overlay showed (started real low but changed up 720P......then overlay went away) ?
Is this example streamed from Netflix @ 1080P ?

Yes, there is a 4800 Kbps 1080p encode in the example. I've noticed that on one device I've played it on the info overlay goes away and eventually comes back; I thought that it was burned into the video but the mechanism may be related to subtitles (same font and color, I believe).

The Logitech Revue is a strange case. There's a "features" page at Netflix's site for most devices (like this one for Panasonic BD players or this one for Boxee Box) but there is none for the Revue. Those pages state what the maximum resolution for a given device is.
post #960 of 1242
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Yes, there is a 4800 Kbps 1080p encode in the example. I've noticed that on one device I've played it on the info overlay goes away and eventually comes back; I thought that it was burned into the video but the mechanism may be related to subtitles (same font and color, I believe).
The Logitech Revue is a strange case. There's a "features" page at Netflix's site for most devices (like this one for Panasonic BD players or this one for Boxee Box) but there is none for the Revue. Those pages state what the maximum resolution for a given device is.

Have you ever seen that overlay come back on the PS3? When I use the quality indicator on the Example Short I never get above High/HD, but when I switch to Sons of Anarchy I get X-High in under 30 seconds.
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