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2011 Panasonic cams announced. - Page 2

post #31 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post

Without the focus ring, resolution of the screen and its size do not make real difference. Keep your SD600.

You must be younger than 50
post #32 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by David HT guy View Post

You must be younger than 50

This hurts, I was hoping you would advise me to finish the school first
post #33 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David HT guy View Post

I just got an SD600 and am within my 30 day return period from Amazon (although I will have to pay the 15% restocking fee). I wonder if it is worth returning it for the SD800. The main benefit would seem to be the larger LCD. The one on SD600 is fairly small. The problem is that the price of the SD800 probably won't be announced until the SD600s are all gone, and at $399 the price of the SD800 will likely be a few hundred dollars more.

First, I don't think you have to pay 15% restocking fee. I checked Amazon return policy and it is nowhere there in regards to cams. Second, is larger LCD worth a few hundred bucks for you? No doubt SD800 will be sold for at least $600 when they will come out, maybe more. If there were other features in SD800, that exchange would be questionable.
post #34 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by galileo2000 View Post

First, I don't think you have to pay 15% restocking fee. I checked Amazon return policy and it is nowhere there in regards to cams. Second, is larger LCD worth a few hundred bucks for you? No doubt SD800 will be sold for at least $600 when they will come out, maybe more. If there were other features in SD800, that exchange would be questionable.

I just checked Amazon. They list the SD800 at $899. If that is the least expensive of the new 3 sensor cameras, then forget the upgrade. The SD600 at $399 looks like the best bargain town.
I confirmed the restocking fee with several Amazon reps. The restocking fee is, in my opinion, misleading and buried deep in their "fine print."
I asked them to identify the 15% fee on their website, and this is what I was directed to:

“Partial refunds/Restocking Fees
...
Any item that is not in its original condition, is damaged, or is missing parts for reasons not due to our error: up to 50% of item's price.”

They must consider that once a camera is opened, it is no longer in its “original condition.” It also looks like they “reserve the right” to charge a restocking fee of up to 50% depending on what they think of the condition of the returned item.
post #35 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by David HT guy View Post

I just checked Amazon. They list the SD800 at $899. If that is the least expensive of the new 3 sensor cameras, then forget the upgrade. The SD600 at $399 looks like the best bargain town.
I confirmed the restocking fee with several Amazon reps. The restocking fee is, in my opinion, misleading and buried deep in their "fine print."
I asked them to identify the 15% fee on their website, and this is what I was directed to:

Partial refunds/Restocking Fees
...
Any item that is not in its original condition, is damaged, or is missing parts for reasons not due to our error: up to 50% of item's price.

They must consider that once a camera is opened, it is no longer in its original condition. It also looks like they reserve the right to charge a restocking fee of up to 50% depending on what they think of the condition of the returned item.

The selling point of those new cams is 3D compatibility which means nothing to me. In a few years maybe.

As of restocking part, I dunno. Amazon is/was usually nice to me. Not that I abused their policies.
post #36 of 150
I don't think any of the new camcorders will show a noticeable increase in video quality over the TM700 in daylight and in low light none will come close to the GH2 with Voigtländer Nokton 25mm f/0.95 or my 50mm F1.4 & 85mm F1.4 lenses so I am all set for 2011 . Also my Canon SX30 IS has the widest FL range (35x optical 24-840mm , 35mm eqiv ) of any camera with HD video & power zoom lens. And the 4.5 stop IS system is great for great long range handheld videos.
post #37 of 150
I guess I'm a little bit more optimistic about Panasonic's new camcorders than the norm. Based on color reproduction, their is a noticeable difference between the TM300/TM350 and the TM700/SDT750 and who's to say Panasonic didn't made the same noticeable difference to the TM900?. Plus who's to say they didn't fix the stabilizer issue that some are reporting? Even the cooling system might be better. I did mention that if Panasonic can do so much to the GH2 than who knows what they can do to the TM900.

Still, I really don't know what to say about Panasonic's choice to put 24p within 60i, The question I ask is WHY!? This is not even funny at all. When it comes to 1080 60p not being easily compatible without third party software such as ClipWrap for Apple's software, I do believe some people are unfairly putting the blame on Panasonic but for 24p within 60i, that's an entirely different story.


Neither of this year's top camcorders are perfect but it's a very good thing both Sony and Panasonic are aggressively putting 1080 60p on even low budget HD models and if that's not shocking enough, Sony decided to put 1080 60p into the TX100V. We all know that AVCHD belongs to both Panasonic and Sony so to have both companies use the same bit rate 1080 60p must mean that they both must have agreed to make that a standard for compatibility reasons.





This doesn't say anything about 1080 60p but I wouldn't be surprised if Sony will also release a firmware upgrade for the PS3 to always be perfect for 1080 60p files.
________________
Sony today introduced a new AVCHD movie application based on the Playstation®3 system called Filmy, which stands for “my film.”

Designed to view your AVCHD files in various ways, Filmy provides quick search and easy playback of all your treasured AVCHD video memories on PS3®. It will be available as a download application to the PS3™ system from the PlayStation Network Store in February 2011.
________________
http://news.sel.sony.com/en/press_ro...ase/58850.html
post #38 of 150
Thread Starter 
@Paulo: I fail to see how the same lens and the same processing system can produce better PQ in the new cams.

TM300 used to have 6.21 megapixels vs TM700 7.59 megapixels. 2011 cams all have the same 7.59 megapixels.
post #39 of 150
Components get better all the time and even in between cycles, components can get better and a good example is the GH1. The newest GH1 models have less banding issues in the high ISOs than the oldest GH1 models. Plus it's not just components getting better, it can also be better firmware that can also give features to the older models but we all know Panasonic would rather sell the new stuff.

I say the same exact thing about the CX700. Since it's newer than the CX550, I wouldn't be surprised if the low light capabilities and stabilizer got a little better.


The way I see it, if the TM900 just have a higher resolution screen, an updated stabilizer and better colors in broad daylight than that's enough for me to choose the TM900 over the TM700.
post #40 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by galileo2000 View Post

@Paulo: I fail to see how the same lens and the same processing system can produce better PQ in the new cams.

TM300 used to have 6.21 megapixels vs TM700 7.59 megapixels. 2011 cams all have the same 7.59 megapixels.

Tm700 vs Tm900 based on the specs:

- Improvement on the stabilization
TM900 uses a hybrid OIS that combines optical and electrical image stabilization systems.

- A major change can be the TM900/HS900/SD800 has a redesigned chip that reduces low light noise by 45% compared to TM700/HS700. There are improvements on colors as well. (Source: panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/900_800_series/feature1.html)

How well that performs in reality is yet to be seen...
But given that tm700 is selling for around $720, if TM900 costs more than $1000 - these improvements wouldn't be worth the price tag.
And their capabilities need to be compared with the old or new DSLRs can achieve to see what offers the best value for price...Panasonic may still be trying to get their return on investment from all the R&D for Tm700.
post #41 of 150
It's under $1,000 at Amazon just like what the TM700 costs when it first came out. Also, the market for DSLRs and camcorders are a little different even though they can both be used for the same thing. DSLRs can more easily achieve a shallow DOF and camcorder are more suitable for shooting sports.
post #42 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razibh View Post

Tm700 vs Tm900 based on the specs:

- Improvement on the stabilization
TM900 uses a hybrid OIS that combines optical and electrical image stabilization systems.

- A major change can be the TM900/HS900/SD800 has a redesigned chip that reduces low light noise by 45% compared to TM700/HS700. There are improvements on colors as well. (Source: panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/900_800_series/feature1.html)

How well that performs in reality is yet to be seen...
But given that tm700 is selling for around $720, if TM900 costs more than $1000 - these improvements wouldn't be worth the price tag.
And their capabilities need to be compared with the old or new DSLRs can achieve to see what offers the best value for price...Panasonic may still be trying to get their return on investment from all the R&D for Tm700.

My eyes are old. I cannot find anything in regards to redesigned for 2011 models chip on the Pana site. Also, I saw something about 45% improvement in low light, but not compared to the 700. It was compared to the "conventional" sources, whatever it means. Please show me where those two features are mentioned in comparison to the 700 model, thanks.

I think that infinite wisdom and the high science of the Panasonic Marketing team had decided that selling point of those 2011 models will be 3D compatibility (which seems to be proprietary 3D technology of Panasonic according to some sources. I haven't checked it since I have no interest in
3D at the moment). That's it folks.

I believe pretty soon we'll see camcorderinfo.com review of Pana 2011 cams.

Paulo, you are ready and willing to buy 2011 model, congratulations and more power to you.
post #43 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by galileo2000 View Post

My eyes are old. I cannot find anything in regards to redesigned for 2011 models chip on the Pana site. Also, I saw something about 45% improvement in low light, but not compared to the 700. It was compared to the "conventional" sources, whatever it means. Please show me where those two features are mentioned in comparison to the 700 model, thanks.

Pana has tried to keep that in small font for some reason, may be they still want to sell tm700..

If you goto panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/900_800_series/feature1.html and find:

Advanced 3MOS System ..
..allowing them to reduce noise by approximately 45% compared to previous Panasonic models.* ..
* Compared with the HDC-SD700, HDC-TM700, and HDC-HS700.


"Crystal Engine PRO"
In addition, its Noise Reduction (NR) technology has been completely redesigned... Compared to previous Panasonic models, noise has been reduced by approximately 45%.* And Intelligent Resolution Technology ensures sharp and crisp pictures, resulting in bright and beautifully colored motion images.
* Compared with the HDC-SD700, HDC-TM700, and HDC-HS700

Intelligent 20x Zoom and HYBRID O.I.S..
..Even when zooming, where hand-shake often occurs, both optical and electrical hand-shake correction make it possible to record beautiful images with approximately 2 times*
* Compared with the HDC-SD700, HDC-TM700, and HDC-HS700.
post #44 of 150
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razibh View Post

Pana has tried to keep that in small font for some reason, may be they still want to sell tm700..

If you goto panasonic.net/avc/camcorder/hd/900_800_series/feature1.html and find:

Advanced 3MOS System ..
..allowing them to reduce noise by approximately 45% compared to previous Panasonic models.* ..
* Compared with the HDC-SD700, HDC-TM700, and HDC-HS700.


"Crystal Engine PRO"
In addition, its Noise Reduction (NR) technology has been completely redesigned... Compared to previous Panasonic models, noise has been reduced by approximately 45%.* And Intelligent Resolution Technology ensures sharp and crisp pictures, resulting in bright and beautifully colored motion images.
* Compared with the HDC-SD700, HDC-TM700, and HDC-HS700

Intelligent 20x Zoom and HYBRID O.I.S..
..Even when zooming, where hand-shake often occurs, both optical and electrical hand-shake correction make it possible to record beautiful images with approximately 2 times*
* Compared with the HDC-SD700, HDC-TM700, and HDC-HS700.

Thanks, found it. Maybe it's not too bad after all. 45% in low light alone is worth a lot.
20x zoom is "intelligent". Just like "military" and "intelligence", don't use both words in the same sentence.

Hybrid OIS might or might not be good.

All right, let's wait for the reviews.
post #45 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by galileo2000 View Post

Hybrid OIS might or might not be good.

All right, let's wait for the reviews.

It is incredible. However, the photos only shot Power OIS
post #46 of 150
I'm currious to see the image quality of the new TM900 as well. The processing software in the camera can be radically different between models with the exact same hardware. It seems logical that it would be easy improve the processing algorithm's across the board, as the TM700 was basically the first gen of it's type.

A larger higher resolution screen in the same tiny ultralight form factor is a very welcome change for those of us close to or over 50

For me the image quality vs. form factor is paramount. No one viewing my video's complains about the lcd when the content is spectacular. I just have to bring out the reading glasses to see it

Cheers,
Pete
post #47 of 150
Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by workinghard View Post

It is incredible. However, the photos only shot Power OIS

Isn't that because all the pixels are used to capture the image in picture mode, so there aren't any spare for the digital stabilisation?

Also camera shake isn't usually an issue when taking a single photograph to need the belt and braces approach of the "Hybrid" system.

Regards

Phil
post #48 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulo Teixeira View Post
Components get better all the time and even in between cycles, components can get better and a good example is the GH1. The newest GH1 models have less banding issues in the high ISOs than the oldest GH1 models. Plus it's not just components getting better, it can also be better firmware that can also give features to the older models but we all know Panasonic would rather sell the new stuff.

I say the same exact thing about the CX700. Since it's newer than the CX550, I wouldn't be surprised if the low light capabilities and stabilizer got a little better.


The way I see it, if the TM900 just have a higher resolution screen, an updated stabilizer and better colors in broad daylight than that's enough for me to choose the TM900 over the TM700.
The TM900 is the better choice over the TM700 just like the GH2 is the better choice over the GH1 but I don't think it is going to be a big enough difference for someone who already has the TM700 and not as big a difference as the GH2 is over the GH1 IMHO.
post #49 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post
The Canon XF100 (MSRP $3K) has one 1/3-inch sensor.
And that's kind of a shame. The XF100 is actually more of a compromise than the consumer 1-chip Canons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post
I have two Canon camcorders with a single sensor, so I don't care much for 3-sensor setup.
Why not. I started into video with 1-chip cameras... my last serious one was the Sony HVR-A1. In those days, that was the best low-cost HDV camcorder you could buy (only $2600). I started to think about upgrades when the 1-chip Sanyo FH-1 ($300) delivered better images, at least in some situations.

There are two problems at work here: color and sensitivity. Sensors themselves, CCD or CMOS, don't know color. They have to be filtered. My Sony has the usual filter, invented by Dr. Bayer at Kodak, which puts arrays of microfilters. For the 2Mpixel HDV image, you have 1M green, 500K blue, and 500K red sensors. Given the filter, each sensor is receiving only 1/3 of the light entering the lens. For each pixel, you interpolate across the neighboring pixels... for example, if I'm on a green pixel, I have red and blue pixels in either direction. There's a pretty good chance that the red value for that particular green pixel would have been the average of the pixels before and after this current pixel. Same with red and green.

The problem is, that doesn't always work. So along borders, there are hard discontinuities in color. So you get weird color fringing. This was a pretty big deal in SD, less so in HD, but still an issue. And kind of a big one if you're chromakeying. My HVR-A1 did this kind of interpolation. So does the Canon XF100... one chip, 2/3 of the light tossed out, a 2Mpixel area, color fringing.

Most modern consumer single chip cameras have larger sensors. Part of that's because consumer think a video camera should also be a still camera, so they want megapixels. Bad idea.. but there's some help in video. When you have an 8Mpixel sensor for a 2Mpixel frame, as you would in HD, you can do "pixel bucketing" with a single-chip sensor. This is why Canon and JVC single-chippers have >8Mpixel sensors... Sony's doing something that's a different compromise.

The good thing is that you now have one red, one blue, and two green (or possibly, one green and one "white") sensor-level pixels, which get combined into a single video pixel. So there's no color interpolation failure. You're still tossing out 2/3 of the light, and worse yet, for the same sized sensor, your sensor sites (eg, hardware pixels) are now 1/4 the size of what they were... so there's less actual light making it to the sensors.

A 3-chipper is very different... it uses a diachroic prism to split essentially all of the light entering the lens into red, blue, and green components, each with their own sensors. Panasonic is the only company doing this in the consumer market; most pro cameras use 3 chips, at least until you get to huge sensors in DSLRs or digital cinema models, like the Red Camera. You get basically all of the light captured. Naturally, there's the temptation to use smaller sensors, but, as in the Panasonic case, they don't have to have huge megapixel counts... an HD frame only need 2Mpixels. The overall effect is that a 3-chip Panasonic with 1/4" sensors is getting slightly more light per video pixel than a single-chip 1/2.5" camcorder with 8Mpixel+ Bayer pattern.

Sony uses a kind of intermediate interpolation. They only use about 4M pixels in the video frame, but turn the sensor 45 degrees off the horizontal. This is the same technique FujiFilm used nearly a decade ago. They don't have any actual pixel values recorded... everything in the video image is interpolated. But based on the tilted sensor, the distance for interpolating a real 4Mpixel into a virtual 8Mpixel is less per interpolation. And the don't screw the color up as much along horizontal and vertical lines, which our brains are hard-wired to detect.

So yeah, Pannys screens suck, relatively. But they're delivering the best video. One other advantage of the Panasonic approach... targeting a smaller sensor, they can build a better lens in the same space. The TM700 lens is f1.5, versus f1.8 or f2.0 on most other consumer models (JVC's actually at f2.8.. they have a fairly huge 1/2.3" sensor, and can't deliver a higher aperture without growing the camera size still more).

Sony pushed ahead with "hybrid" image stabilization... if Panasonic doesn't have that in the new models, you'd kind of wonder what they're for. Sony's system uses the normal optical means for X and Y stabilization. But optical can't deal with Z-axis stabilization (eg, anti-rotation). But it's the perfect application of digital stabilization.
post #50 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungermann View Post
I bet the only other improvement they made is switching to a new battery form-factor with a different handshake method, because Chinese $15 batteries ruin Panasonic's idea of $120 battery packs.
I certainly hope not. Of course, the best option would be for Panasonic to go the way of Canon and some of the others, and just not care about who's battery you use. But Panasonic is an actual battery company... one of the main suppliers of NiMh and Li-ion cells (the NiMh cells used in the Toyota Prius come from Panasonic). So it's understandable how the battery people at Panasonic hold sway.

One of the best features of Pansonic camcorders, oddly enough, is the battery. While Sony seems to play "battery of the month club", Panasonic has been very consistent. I bought my daughter an SD9 back when I was still using Sony. That takes the same battery as my TM700, which takes the same battery as my HMC40 (well, you need a cable to put the huge HMC40 battery on the TM700).

I did run into a weird flaw... part of Panasonic's draconic approach to batteries. I was setting up my TM700 to do timelapse video of today's snow. Given the limits of batteries, I was setting up the power.. something I don't usually do. I have two chargers, one that came with the TM700, one that came with the HMC40... other than color, they're essentially identical. I found one cable... this is the one that just snaps in where the battery goes (from the HMC40, apparently). The TM700 rejects this.. despite it being a normal everyday power supply option within this great unified Panasonic battery system. I had to go dig up the "direct" battery cable to power the TM700.

This, of course, suggests that it would be pretty trivial to hack up a 3rd party battery that connects via that same cable. In short -- no extra security here against 3rd party hacks, and a big annoyance for legit users. Which is usually the end result in these things. Sure, not as bad as needed a whole new set of chargers and batteries for each Canon or Sony camcorder, but annoying still.
post #51 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_L View Post
Isn't that because all the pixels are used to capture the image in picture mode, so there aren't any spare for the digital stabilisation?
There are always a few spare pixels on a modern camcorder.. simply because pretty much every sensor is made in 4:3 aspect, and you're shooting in 16:9. If the 16:9 crop gets you exactly 1920x1080, you would need an additional crop to have pixels left over for any DIS other than vertical stabilization.
post #52 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazydave View Post

The problem is, that doesn't always work. So along borders, there are hard discontinuities in color. So you get weird color fringing. This was a pretty big deal in SD, less so in HD, but still an issue. And kind of a big one if you're chromakeying. My HVR-A1 did this kind of interpolation. So does the Canon XF100... one chip, 2/3 of the light tossed out, a 2Mpixel area, color fringing.

I used to have the HC1 (same as the A1, only no XLR and much cheaper), I have the HG10 and the HF100. The image is good enough for my purposes. The HF100 is at least as sensitive as the TM700 and is smaller and lighter and cheaper. When the image is good enough, I start looking for better functionality, not for another 50 lines of resolution. So a single 1/3-inch sensor on the XA10/G10 does not bother me, but the placement of AF/MF button does.
post #53 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by jogiba View Post

The TM900 is the better choice over the TM700 just like the GH2 is the better choice over the GH1 but I don't think it is going to be a big enough difference for someone who already has the TM700 and not as big a difference as the GH2 is over the GH1 IMHO.

I just bought a TM700, so can return non-issue. The low light is not very good, and the sound can be sometimes off, and one one of the recordings echoed (maybe a setting?? but I can't imagine an echo setting LOL)

The low light and the 3.5" screen is VERY tempting, and the OIS looks like its much better as well (my TM700 is great, but I use it sometimes while in a boat at speed, so better would be usefull for me)
post #54 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarguyHere View Post
I just bought a TM700, so can return non-issue. The low light is not very good, and the sound can be sometimes off, and one one of the recordings echoed (maybe a setting?? but I can't imagine an echo setting LOL)

The low light and the 3.5" screen is VERY tempting, and the OIS looks like its much better as well (my TM700 is great, but I use it sometimes while in a boat at speed, so better would be usefull for me)
In my opinion, it is better to return the TM700 while you can and get the TM900 for another $250 which will give you significant improvement in low light. The OIS is supposed to be quite good too. And you also have the option to play with pana's limited 3D support.

TM900 will be retailing for $999 at amazon link: amazon.com/Panasonic-HDC-TM900K-Memory-Compatible-Camcorder/dp/B004I43MJU
post #55 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by galileo2000 View Post
With the PQ of the TMV700 already so high, I wouldn't have expected much change in the new models. Unless they increased the size of the cam and thus the chips, I think PQ is going to be pretty close to where it is in the 700.

I do think it's nice to see that Sony has finally seen the '60p light', but it would have been nice if they had one model with 3 sensors.
post #56 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by alainhubert View Post
2011 won't be a great year for new and innovative Panasonic consumer products.
Think GH2, think GH2 and you might change your mind. More than just a 'tweak' of the GH1. Yes, Panasonic is alive and well.
post #57 of 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
With the PQ of the TMV700 already so high, I wouldn't have expected much change in the new models.
They could have fixed all firmware bugs, engineering blunders and ergonomic mishaps. Maybe they did, we'll see how the Func button behaves now. But the fan is still in the same place.
post #58 of 150
Remember that one man's 'ergonomic mishaps' is another's 'perfect design'.
post #59 of 150
Has anyone found a review on the new 900??

If so, please post a link.

Thanks

P.S. And Thanks for the input, I'm returning my 700, just bought it, so get 100% refund, and will probably buy this new one, assuming the reviews are good.
post #60 of 150
You probably wont see a review for at least 2 weeks. Also, I don't think Camcorderinfo will review it properly.

What I really want to see is real world tests between the TM700 and the TM900.

Still, I'd rather get this than the TM900.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIeOJ1UD2ZQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__3hIM-HqWw
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